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QES Labs PAD-2 vs Burl B2 Bomber Stereo ADC shootout vid Digital Converters
Old 7th March 2017
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
So far I like it.more open and natural and 3-d than the burl.
its just the clocking thing has me concerned.
I cant clock it to the rest of my rig.
I tried slaving the Grimm to the pad2.it sounded very different.softer,even the waveforms were pretty different. after a lot of listening didn't like it as much as the Grimm CC1 running the show.less depth.
the pad not being able to receive my Grimm's word clock kind of bugs me.
I'm going to have a Brooklyn ADC here next week for a comparison.
that one accepts standard word clock.
In pad2's defense, I'd like to say that I used the WC out to sync multi-track DA (Symphony Mk II). Overall sound was remarkable, no veiled sound as you experienced.
Probably it doesn't like the double loop deal, pad wc -> Grimm -> da.
Even though I've never sync'd it in 512fs mode, to my knowledge, this would be a nice approach, since sigma-delta IC's natively work in oversampling mode. This reminds me of super clock.
It's a pity the Grimm can't do 512fs.
Old 7th March 2017
  #92
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Adebar's Avatar
I used the Acousence arfi-adc2 with a very similar approach like the PAD and tried the clock out alternatively to my Grimm CC1 for clocking the Lynx Aurora and/or the Metric Halo ULN-8 (Acousence as master).

Result: I sold my Grimm. I prefered the clocking via Acousence.
But this is only a side side benefit. The inner dynamic, detail and musicality is the reason I like the converter most.
Old 7th March 2017
  #93
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
Cool!
Let us know what do you think of the brooklyn.. the xformers inputs along with the "standard active" path got me VERY interested indeed..



Cheu
Will do sir.
Mytek is sending a unit out this way in about a week.
Old 7th March 2017
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioGreg View Post
In pad2's defense, I'd like to say that I used the WC out to sync multi-track DA (Symphony Mk II). Overall sound was remarkable, no veiled sound as you experienced.
Probably it doesn't like the double loop deal, pad wc -> Grimm -> da.
Even though I've never sync'd it in 512fs mode, to my knowledge, this would be a nice approach, since sigma-delta IC's natively work in oversampling mode. This reminds me of super clock.
It's a pity the Grimm can't do 512fs.
Yeah it's a shame because I like the PAD2 unit.
And it was expensive.
It's just after many years of trying different systems this setup is just the way I like it, and I'm not going to change it yet again or buy another expensive clock to get everything working correctly.
I sold off my antelope Trinity and 10m Atomic clock last year.it changed the audio too drastically.
Seems like a pretty big oversight to not include standard WC inputs?
Old 7th March 2017
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Yeah it's a shame because I like the PAD2 unit.
And it was expensive.
It's just after many years of trying different systems this setup is just the way I like it, and I'm not going to change it yet again or buy another expensive clock to get everything working correctly.
I sold off my antelope Trinity and 10m Atomic clock last year.it changed the audio too drastically.
Seems like a pretty big oversight to not include standard WC inputs?
That's pretty bonkers that it doesn't accept standard WC. Seems like a terrible oversight and if it wasn't clearly stated anywhere by QES I would consider it gross negligence on their part. Either way, it's a poor design choice and a very bad look for the company. Exactly the kind of thing I fear when I stick my neck out for a custom product.
Old 7th March 2017
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelterr View Post
That's pretty bonkers that it doesn't accept standard WC. Seems like a terrible oversight and if it wasn't clearly stated anywhere by QES I would consider it gross negligence on their part. Either way, it's a poor design choice and a very bad look for the company. Exactly the kind of thing I fear when I stick my neck out for a custom product.
Its clearly stated on the website and the manual. Roundbadge, why not just not clock the PAD-2 to anything? If you are satisfied with the sound should it really matter?
Old 7th March 2017
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deuc647 View Post
Its clearly stated on the website and the manual. Roundbadge, why not just not clock the PAD-2 to anything? If you are satisfied with the sound should it really matter?
I looked into the product and read up on the website and I had zero idea this was the case. I'm sure it's there but I don't think you can fault someone for seeing two coax posts on the back of the unit one that says "WCK out" and the other that says "Ext. Sync IN" and not realizing that they need a secondary device to clock the unit externally. It's 2017...it's not unreasonable to think you can externally clock a digital device without buying some other product. I didn't notice, Roundbadge didn't notice and he bought a top of the line version and had communications with the guy. I can imagine knowing this limitation could have possibly been the difference between ordering it or not ordering it. But that's just my guess.

The "sound" of a unit is only part of the equation. Things need to sound good and also integrate into your workflow. And again, being able to externally clock a convertor with a standard BNC cable isn't exactly an unrealistic expectation.
Old 7th March 2017
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelterr View Post
I looked into the product and read up on the website and I had zero idea this was the case. I'm sure it's there but I don't think you can fault someone for seeing two coax posts on the back of the unit one that says "WCK out" and the other that says "Ext. Sync IN" and not realizing that they need a secondary device to clock the unit externally. It's 2017...it's not unreasonable to think you can externally clock a digital device without buying some other product. I didn't notice, Roundbadge didn't notice and he bought a top of the line version and had communications with the guy. I can imagine knowing this limitation could have possibly been the difference between ordering it or not ordering it. But that's just my guess.

The "sound" of a unit is only part of the equation. Things need to sound good and also integrate into your workflow. And again, being able to externally clock a convertor with a standard BNC cable isn't exactly an unrealistic expectation.
Sincerely I don't get your points.
From Qes the website you can read:
"D-Sync input option will sync the unit to an external Master Clock high-frequency signal, instead of the usual low-frequency Word Clock, thus allowing the direct control of the internal clock timing of the A-D conversion chip",
clearer than this?
with regard to the 2 BNC posts you mention, on the EXT.SYNC IN silkscreen, the 2 high frequency cuts are clearly printed, it's in the manual too, which can be downloaded from the same page.
I don't think they are 'fooling' anyone into thinking it's a standard WC input.
I can agree that the 512fs is more unusual, just this.(BTW I think, as I said, this is a clever way to sync an oversampling sigma-delta).
Furthermore Val builds everything to order, so I don't think it would have been a problem to ask for the possibility to change it by including the sync input as a WC, or even have both the D-sync and WC input.
A communication problem between RB and Val? Very likely. However I don't think you can fault Qes as well.
Just a personal thought, of course.
Old 7th March 2017
  #99
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Well being the super busy clueless production guy and jumping the gun looks like I made the rather large mistake of thinking this unit was like 99.99 percent like all the other converters I've ever owned and were able to lock via standard WC.
the website does indeed state its a hi freq input.
it wasn't very obvious to me what that actually was.I've never had a unit with this feature.
hopefully in the future the website will be updated for the non tech geeks like me lol.. specifying that you need a specific signal to use that sync input.
So in the end I do desire to have the standard WC input.
will it make a huge difference?
without actually hearing the difference who knows,but I'd certainly like the option of knowing what it sounds like with and without.
The good news is Val is very understanding of the situation and we're working on a solution asap.
Old 8th March 2017
  #100
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Thats really good news Roundbadge
Old 8th March 2017
  #101
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuc647 View Post
Thats really good news Roundbadge
All good in the hood.
Val is a righteous dude.
Old 8th March 2017
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
All good in the hood.
Val is a righteous dude.
Is Val going to take care of you on the W/C option?

By the way, how would you compare the prism sound to the pad-2?
Old 8th March 2017
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucin Niega View Post
Is Val going to take care of you on the W/C option?

By the way, how would you compare the prism sound to the pad-2?
he's brainstorming a solution.maybe an add on module or something.
I haven't compared it yet to any prism products.
as far as I know the ADA-8XR would be the one to check.
Old 8th March 2017
  #104
@BigBeard; since I know you have a Symphony mkI as well. How did you sync it with the PAD2? Is the PAD2 able to send sync through the AES output? Or does the Symphony accept word clock at 512fs?
Old 8th March 2017
  #105
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I think he already explained that. The Symphony Mk I was slaved by each converter (Burl, PAD-2) on each track, when he recorded through the Burl, the DA was slaved to the Burl WC out through BNC cable, exactly the same thing for the PAD-2: Symphony slaved through PAD-2 WC out via BNC cable.

The 512fs clock is for the PAD-2 sync in (called D-Sync).
Old 8th March 2017
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioGreg View Post
I think he already explained that. The Symphony Mk I was slaved by each converter (Burl, PAD-2) on each track, when he recorded through the Burl, the DA was slaved to the Burl WC out through BNC cable, exactly the same thing for the PAD-2: Symphony slaved through PAD-2 WC out via BNC cable.

The 512fs clock is for the PAD-2 sync in (called D-Sync).
Ah, thanks for clarifying
Old 10th March 2017
  #107
I would like something exactly in the middle in a lot of ways. The QES makes the Burl seem too slow but the bass on the Burl and general glue is great. The QES also sound a bit too transparent and leaves me wanting some gumojo. Obviously this could be done with outboard. Thanks for the comparison though.
Old 10th March 2017
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
I would like something exactly in the middle in a lot of ways. The QES makes the Burl seem too slow but the bass on the Burl and general glue is great. The QES also sound a bit too transparent and leaves me wanting some gumojo. Obviously this could be done with outboard. Thanks for the comparison though.
I think the classic filter setting is the "in between" although I'm becoming a big fan of the "low group delay" setting(default on power up).
I'm mixing a little diffently through the Pad.
Need less eq up top
More open transparent so there's more breathing room imo.More clarity space and width.
It's really apparent when ab'ing to Burl kick snare and vocals.
There's that acoustic guitar! Lol
The burl b2 had a little extra thickness/weight glue but at the cost of space,spatial sense,width,openness and separation.the outer edges sounded a little rounded closed in.a little less wide.(This is compared to the pre AD straight console feed)
By no means was it bad sounding, very musical and I guess "analog",but it's a sound I've already got tracking through the mama mothership.
Feels like on the mix I've got all the glue and ompf with the shadow hills,pultecs and black box.
Old 10th March 2017
  #109
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
I think the classic filter setting is the "in between" although I'm becoming a big fan of the "low group delay" setting(default on power up).
I'm mixing a little diffently through the Pad.
Need less eq up top
More open transparent so there's more breathing room imo.More clarity space and width.
It's really apparent when ab'ing to Burl kick snare and vocals.
The burl b2 had a little extra thickness/weight glue but at the cost of space,spatial sense,width,openness and separation.the outer edges sounded a little rounded closed in.a little less wide.(This is compared to the pre AD straight console feed)
By no means was it bad sounding, very musical and I guess "analog",but it's a sound I've already got tracking through the mama mothership.
Feels like on the mix I've got all the glue and ompf with the shadow hills,pultecs and black box.
Thanks for the info. I notice the S/H market has quite a few well priced Burl's at the moment. Thought about a 2 track for capturing on a second computer.
I just splashed out and got the BLA MK 3 which I'm hoping will make my big Avid system sound clearly better than loop sync. I've heard some encouraging tests that beat the Antelope and if it's good enough for Tony Maserati well....
I tried to get a Grimm CC1 but they don't have any in stock for a while and I got messed around a bit by a Dutch reseller.

I might look into the Pad. What is the basic A>D model price in Europe? Anyone?

Cheers!
Old 10th March 2017
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
Thanks for the info. I notice the S/H market has quite a few well priced Burl's at the moment. Thought about a 2 track for capturing on a second computer.
I just splashed out and got the BLA MK 3 which I'm hoping will make my big Avid system sound clearly better than loop sync. I've heard some encouraging tests that beat the Antelope and if it's good enough for Tony Maserati well....
I tried to get a Grimm CC1 but they don't have any in stock for a while and I got messed around a bit by a Dutch reseller.

I might look into the Pad. What is the basic A>D model price in Europe? Anyone?

Cheers!
Baisc model around 1800.
I did full bells and whistles.
being an antelope atomic guy for some time I first heard the Grimm vs an antelope 10m rig at a shootout with a Neil Young tape transfer for 'Monsanto years" a couple years back.everyone picked the Grimm for the most natural sound for transfer.[as is known he's a pretty picky guy].made me rethink.
When Grimm decided to discontinue the CC! I got the BLA micro clock 3 [when it first arrived on the scene]
then me and a vk sales rep convinced Grimm to make CC1's again,for 600 less. I sold the BLA and went Grimm.
soundwise the BLA sounded a bit more aggressive rougher,rawer less refined
Old 10th March 2017
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
More open transparent so there's more breathing room imo.More clarity space and width.
It's really apparent when ab'ing to Burl kick snare and vocals.
There's that acoustic guitar! Lol.
It's good to have 2 renderings between the 'low group delay' and 'classic' filter settings on the Pad.
Just like you, I'm a huge fan of the low group, however, for some tracks, I prefer the Classic setting. It's a joy to have that Filter button, trust me.
Did you check out the new shootout PAD-2 vs Lavry Blue? You can find it here.
In some parts of that swingin' track, I just love the 'Classic' setting.

Ref. the low group, as you said, it's detailed, clear, open, 3d, it creates more 'room' for the kick and snare, the attacks are fast, and this setting makes them as realistic as possible.
as I described it in some other post, to me it seems a direct link to the music! FWIW.

Some email conversation with Val confirmed that you're gonna get a small black magic box for your CC1 sync duties. Not bad.
Old 10th March 2017
  #112
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioGreg View Post
It's good to have 2 renderings between the 'low group delay' and 'classic' filter settings on the Pad.
Just like you, I'm a huge fan of the low group, however, for some tracks, I prefer the Classic setting. It's a joy to have that Filter button, trust me.
Did you check out the new shootout PAD-2 vs Lavry Blue? You can find it here.
In some parts of that swingin' track, I just love the 'Classic' setting.

Ref. the low group, as you said, it's detailed, clear, open, 3d, it creates more 'room' for the kick and snare, the attacks are fast, and this setting makes them as realistic as possible.
as I described it in some other post, to me it seems a direct link to the music! FWIW.

Some email conversation with Val confirmed that you're gonna get a small black magic box for your CC1 sync duties. Not bad.
I agree.always glad to have options.I'm sure at some point it'll come in handy.
I guess for now I'm re discovering the clean linear AD conversion world.
sometimes with all the crazy stuff I have on the mix buss the low group is nice for retaining the detail and depth.
yes saw the comparison[my unit] and downloaded the files.I had a Lavry Blue years ago.still holds up well.
Old 10th March 2017
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
..but the bass on the Burl and general glue is great. The QES also sound a bit too transparent and leaves me wanting some gumojo. Obviously this could be done with outboard.
interesting you say that Paul. w/ the Pad unit I'm rediscovering the "Iron" mode on my shadow hills comp.
that kinda bugged me when I first got the bomber for mix print..too much low mid thickness and glue in conjunction with "Iron mode on the SH comp..kick and bass gtr too round and mushy.I pretty much stayed w/ nickel or steel[aggressive]
Old 10th March 2017
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Baisc model around 1800.
I did full bells and whistles.
being an antelope atomic guy for some time I first heard the Grimm vs an antelope 10m rig at a shootout with a Neil Young tape transfer for 'Monsanto years" a couple years back.everyone picked the Grimm for the most natural sound for transfer.[as is known he's a pretty picky guy].made me rethink.
When Grimm decided to discontinue the CC! I got the BLA micro clock 3 [when it first arrived on the scene]
then me and a vk sales rep convinced Grimm to make CC1's again,for 600 less. I sold the BLA and went Grimm.
soundwise the BLA sounded a bit more aggressive rougher,rawer less refined
Thanks, that's interesting Hunter. The BLA MC MK3 does sound a bit brighter and harder and their upgrade makes it sound smoother and not unlike the 10M. I picked the gritty one in the blind test as everything had more edge, groove and felt like a funkier mix.
I was sceptical about clocking even at higher price levels but these cheap little boxes seem to make quite a cool difference.

I might pursue a Grimm when they get production running again anyhow.....
Old 10th March 2017
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
Thanks, that's interesting Hunter. The BLA MC MK3 does sound a bit brighter and harder and their upgrade makes it sound smoother and not unlike the 10M. I picked the gritty one in the blind test as everything had more edge, groove and felt like a funkier mix.
I was sceptical about clocking even at higher price levels but these cheap little boxes seem to make quite a cool difference.

I might pursue a Grimm when they get production running again anyhow.....
I never got around to hearing the BLA MC 3 xb super duper mega fly uber modded version.
The guy I sold mine to did the upgrade
I shipped it directly to BLA.
Old 11th March 2017
  #116
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Mytek in

Got the Mytek Brooklyn in for evaluation.
really nice box for 2k.
imo Pad sounds more natural 3d.wider.more detailed mid's.
the Brooklyn has a little added hi's and lows.very very subtle little smiley face.
thinking maybe the flagship Manhattan would be a better match for the PAd2.
Attached Thumbnails
QES Labs PAD-2 vs Burl B2 Bomber Stereo ADC shootout vid-mytek-pad-burl-1.jpg  
Old 11th March 2017
  #117
Here for the gear
 

I've a stupid question, im curious to know both of Burl ADC & QES PAD-2, are they a "analog converter" or "digital converter"?
Thanks, guys!
Old 11th March 2017
  #118
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Jeb A's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Got the Mytek Brooklyn in for evaluation.
really nice box for 2k.
imo Pad sounds more natural 3d.wider.more detailed mid's.
the Brooklyn has a little added hi's and lows.very very subtle little smiley face.
thinking maybe the flagship Manhattan would be a better match for the PAd2.
You've been very tactful ... lol
Old 11th March 2017
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb A View Post
You've been very tactful ... lol
Actually after giving my ears a few hours break and further testing and listening I think the Mytek is Holding up really well.
So far prefer the transformer off.
Tried the T 3:1 setting, sounded kinda cool but not enough gain on the back end even with the output set higher (-14)
Preferred clocking it to my rig over internal.more focused,detailed.
Still need to hear the PAD2 clocked to my system.its still running internal WC while everything else is off the Grimm.
The PAD2 vs Brooklyn continues this weekend.
This converter stuff is doing my head in! lol
Old 11th March 2017
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juno. View Post
I've a stupid question, im curious to know both of Burl ADC & QES PAD-2, are they a "analog converter" or "digital converter"?
Thanks, guys!
Analog to Digital converter
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