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Opinion on Telefunken USA U47
Old 28th January 2018
  #61
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeHappy View Post
The second quote is here:

Brand Overview - TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik

I respect your point of view but I trust more the official site.
Thanks anyway
Wow. Klaus is telling you how he was there, and how he was part of what went down, and you're choosing to trust the website of a company that got caught lying about M16s and VK14Ks?

I know people involved in how it went down. Klaus is correct. Daimler foolishly let the trademark expire in North America, and Toni, in a bit of business brilliance, purchased it. This is why the company was initially called Telefunken North America. Only after years of negotiation did they get the rights to Telefunken Elektroakustic. Most of information they acquired in recreating the 251 and U47 came from the braintrust of Klaus, Oliver Archut and Toby Foster. Not all advice was either followed, or was feasible. There was no cooperation with Neumann or AKG. I remember Toni telling me about the lengths they went to to reverse engineer the body parts. Why would they reverse engineer the body parts if they were part of the parent company?

The fact that you are arguing with Klaus about anything regarding microphones is so indicative of why people make fun of this place. You must be like, really smart.

Last edited by jjblair; 30th January 2018 at 05:12 PM..
Old 28th January 2018
  #62
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeHappy View Post
"Numerous original documents and drafts from TELEFUNKEN and AKG were acquired, and coupled with thorough reverse engineering the ELA M 251 was brought back to life with meticulous accuracy."
BTW, where did they get these documents? They were acquired mostly from Oliver, not Telefunken, who never made microphones anyway. Telefunken never made the 251, just as Norelco never had anything to do with the C12A. It was an AKG product, with somebody else's logo.
Old 28th January 2018
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeHappy View Post

I respect your point of view but I trust more the official site.
Let me get this straight, you prefer to believe a manufacturer's own PR over the word of someone who is probably the world's leading expert on the subject?

Uh, OK.
Old 28th January 2018
  #64
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Silvertone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
I apologize. That sentence was not part of your Wikipedia quotes. But how does quoting verbatim from a manufacturer's promotional site without additional knowledge and critical evaluation of the statements further a factual discussion?

"Based on proprietary design" can mean many things, but it usually means "their own design". I cannot find any quotes from Telefunken Elektroakustik where the company (incorrectly) claims to have been privileged to receive Neumann's or AKG's proprietary information in designing their mics. A link between Tele/USA and Neumann or AKG simply does not exist.

At least in regards to AKG I am absolutely certain, because I initiated, and was part of, the negotiations until they ended.
To my knowledge, Neumann, likewise, has never engaged in partnerships with other microphone manufacturers to develop Neumann or other brands of mics.

P.S.: I am writing all of this in great detail, not simply to counter your personal and erroneous opinions, but to preserve facts for the long run: the internet never forgets.

Klaus, thank you for your efforts to keep the correct Audio history in tact.

I try to do that myself. Sometimes elderly engineers can’t remember the correct details. I try to fact check as much as possible but sometimes misinformation still gets out into the public. When I’m called out on any information of historic fact that I got wrong I try to go back and correct it. Unfortunately GS doesn’t let you do this after a period of time... so the misinformation lives on forever.

Between you, Bob Ohlson and Doug at Emmr a lot of critical information has been preserved over the years. I’d just like to say thank you.
Old 28th January 2018
  #65
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
Simply copying from Wikipedia sometimes is just not enough, and in this case, does disservice to the audio community which reads your quotes.

As I wrote, there is no business or corporate connection between the original (German) Telefunken marketing company which Neumann, AKG, Beyer, TAB, and a whole bunch of other audio electronic manufacturers used to distribute their products. (Unlike the U.S. Telefunken Elektroakustik, the original German Telefunken company after WWII was strictly a marketing company and, aside of tube manufacturing, never manufactured any finished products).

The German Telefunken trademark holding company, until recently owned by Mercedes Benz/Daimler, sold the rights to the Telefunken name to many companies in many fields of electric/electronic manufacturing goods. Telefunken Elektroakustik is one of them.

Your other Wikipedia quote is also misleading in its wording, at least the first part:

I helped Toni Fishman "acquire" some general AKG drawings through AKG's development director at the time. To my knowledge, core critical proprietary information was never released. Hence the need for extensive "reverse engineering" (I also helped Toni with that).

I don't understand why you keep pushing this fantasy that there is even the slightest analogy between Neumann and Telefunken Elektroakustik's histories and proximities to the founding brands. The fact that by now Telefunken Elektroakustik has established itself as a solid microphone company with a wide range of offerings, especially for the beginning recordist, should speak for its legitimacy in the microphone business, regardless of the provenance of its name.
Klaus - Telefunken AEG did in fact manufacture some V series themselves, and perhaps some other units.

And of course Neumann did have input from NWDR for some products; the M49 at very least. Not quite a "company" but worth mentioning.

The spirit of your comments is absolutely correct except for these small, rare exceptions.
Old 28th January 2018
  #66
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Klaus's Avatar
 

You are correct, at least on the surface: manufacturing of V and U cassette units, as well as AEG-Telefunken tape machines was done in AEG's facilities, after AEG bought up Telefunken.

So yours is maybe the best analogy to Telefunken/USA's relationship to the name.

Last edited by Klaus; 28th January 2018 at 10:25 PM..
Old 29th January 2018
  #67
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeHappy View Post
The second quote is here:

Brand Overview - TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik

I respect your point of view but I trust more the official site.
Thanks anyway
Ummm all that says is they reverse engineered everything for the 251, which is exactly what Klaus was saying. There's no argument here unless I'm missing something. Seems like Klaus had a lot to do with TF USA (among other things!), so maybe a good source for accurate info!
Old 30th January 2018
  #68
Gear Maniac
 
rwsand's Avatar
I really appreciate your info Klaus. I'm weighing in because I, like others am interested in products reissued from Neumann. I consider my purchases investments in their company as well as mine and knowing how the company is structured, designs and supports its products is pivotal to making purchase decisions.

Thank you!
Old 27th November 2018
  #69
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JblKid95's Avatar
 

My fav mic of all time! Tried it at aes, and then tried it at home. Everything is up for sale
Old 4th October 2019
  #70
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Oldone's Avatar
I did a 47 shootout at Vintageking here in LA. The modern Telefunken USA was right at the top of what I would call the best of the best models. I liked it better than the Neumann 67 vintage, also tested. Don't know or care if it's using tootsie pop rolls for it's electronics. It is an incredible sounding mic and comparing it to a vintage model is kind of all over the map because of the high variance of vintage models and how well they are maintained. After the shootout which contained a Flea, Pearlman, Wonder and some close contenders, I came away wanting the Tele USA U47 but, like others have stated, the new price tag was challenging to swallow since there are used vintage Neuman 67s in that price range. However, when I had a chance to pick up a used one recently, I grabbed it. It's an incredible sounding mic.

Last edited by Oldone; 5th October 2019 at 02:42 AM..
Old 4th October 2019
  #71
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DougS's Avatar
 

Gotta chance to use a Telefunken USA U47 tracking some songs in London this summer at Sarm. Sounded great.

Didn't have any of my own equipment so we gotta chance to use a totally different vocal chain. Which was NOT a compromise:

Telefunken USA U47 --->Vintage Neve--->CL1b
Old 4th October 2019
  #72
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A T-Funk 47 vs. Heiserman U47 tube mic shootout, would be cool...
Chris
Old 5th October 2019
  #73
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JblKid95's Avatar
 

Why can’t akg use their old documents to make a c12 or 251.
Old 5th October 2019
  #74
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I was in a shootout with an original 47 (rented from Blackbird) and the new one. The new one was incredibly impressive. We were jumping between both and I and a number of others couldn't tell which was which. Obviously, every vintage 47 is different but I was sold.
Old 14th October 2019
  #75
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DougS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
Gotta chance to use a Telefunken USA U47 tracking some songs in London this summer at Sarm. Sounded great.

Didn't have any of my own equipment so we gotta chance to use a totally different vocal chain. Which was NOT a compromise:

Telefunken USA U47 --->Vintage Neve--->CL1b
Its always better with a sample...
Old 14th October 2019
  #76
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JblKid95's Avatar
 

Such a great mic lol. Has anyone used an m7 with it instead ?
Old 14th October 2019
  #77
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Oldone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
Its always better with a sample...
Thanks Doug. That's the sound.

What was the compressor on the acoustic?
Old 14th October 2019
  #78
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DougS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldone View Post
Thanks Doug. That's the sound.

What was the compressor on the acoustic?
Just to make sure we're on the same page, the guitar was not tracked with the U47 or simultaneously with vocals. On guitar was a spaced pair of Nueman KM84i's, plus to thicken it up, we added a couple of Coles 4038's. One over the shoulder and the other was setup on a guitar amp for another song - so we just turned that mic on as a room mic for the acoustic. So a total for four mics on the guitar - it was a Taylor GS Mini.

No hardware compressor while tracking on the acoustic. I added a little compression ITB with StudioOne's stock clean compressor plugin and additionally used a dynamic EQ plugin, sidechained to vocals (for some frequency dependent ducting), to bring down 3.2k (with a wide Q) to clear that freq range a bit when she sings.
Old 14th October 2019
  #79
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Sounds great Doug!
Chris
Old 8th December 2019
  #80
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DougS's Avatar
 

Just released. (Tele US U47 - Neve/CLB1)

https://open.spotify.com/album/0KVgIOYcjwm0vPh4h9E3Sg

I made a Christmas Song, post yours if you have one!-happynewyearart.jpg
Old 8th December 2019
  #81
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mbvoxx's Avatar
Keep in mind that no new mic is going to have the same sonic qualities as a vintage mic, even if it has exactly the same components.
However, in 40 or 50 years I just might.
Old 7th August 2020
  #82
Gear Head
Plot twist!
Current Neumann should just rebrand the Current Telefunken U47 and make that Neumann U47 Reissue.
😆
Old 7th August 2020
  #83
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Not quite that easy. Where would they find the proper VF-14 tubes, for one thing? Fortunately, Neumann were able to Reissue the U67 and U47 FET.
Check out Klaus Heyne's posts on this sometime. Believe me, I wish it was different!
Chris
Old 7th August 2020
  #84
Gear Nut
 
Husky Squad's Avatar
Despite the fact that I really like Tele u47 sound, I doubt that a well-respected company like Neumann would allow itself to sell a microphone with pretty cheap glass tube (408A?) + resistor embedded in a metal envelope and ask for it 750$.
It's a shame.
I think that the engineers from Neumann will find another way out... And if they make the U47 Reissue with a glass tube, it won't be hidden in metal envelope, and it will cost much less than "VF14K".

P.S. Recently there was a special offer from Vintage King. Telefunken U47 - Vintage King Limited Edition with Neumann K47 capsule. Now all information has been deleted, for unknown reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTunes7 View Post
Plot twist!
Current Neumann should just rebrand the Current Telefunken U47 and make that Neumann U47 Reissue.
������
Old 7th August 2020
  #85
Before committing to buying either, I did a side by side comparison of the Telefunken 'u47' and the Heiserman H47T. There were a lot of similarities but the Heiserman definitely beat the T-Funk hands down.

The tiny RCA408 is NOT a VF14M or a VF14 or an EF or anything similar. Heiserman uses an EF800 tube and the circuit is expertly designed by renowned mic tech Dave Wheeler - who services Blackbird's microphones and countless U47s from the 1950s and 60s.

They got it right. I have both the K47 and M7 headbaskets with mine and provided a comparison in the Heiserman 47 thread.

As for T-Funk? They make some great microphones and I own 4 of them.
Old 7th August 2020
  #86
Gear Head
I totally get it and I'm half kidding, half not.

If Neumann went the nuvistor route once, could they go with another tube for a reissue?
Old 7th August 2020
  #87
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Fingers crossed for K84 IMHO, is a more realistic hope.
Chris
Old 8th August 2020
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTunes7 View Post
I totally get it and I'm half kidding, half not.

If Neumann went the nuvistor route once, could they go with another tube for a reissue?
Sure they could. EF800 and EF806 come to mind.
Old 10th August 2020
  #89
Gear Addict
 

Hey DougS, so how do you feel your beloved Pearlman TM47 compares to the Tele USA?

In my shootouts the Pearlman had a bigger bottom with a bit more bite(could be down to k47 vs M7 capsule though)

Cheers


Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
Gotta chance to use a Telefunken USA U47 tracking some songs in London this summer at Sarm. Sounded great.

Didn't have any of my own equipment so we gotta chance to use a totally different vocal chain. Which was NOT a compromise:

Telefunken USA U47 --->Vintage Neve--->CL1b
Old 10th August 2020
  #90
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DougS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by davehall6162 View Post
Hey DougS, so how do you feel your beloved Pearlman TM47 compares to the Tele USA?

In my shootouts the Pearlman had a bigger bottom with a bit more bite(could be down to k47 vs M7 capsule though)

Cheers
Good question! Both are great. Both have that familiar 47 sound in spades - but they do have a slightly different tone.

I think I would agree the Pearlman has a little more bottom end but I would say the Tele USA has more bite. A little more texture but the Pearlman is smoother. Both are relatively dark mics but I think the Pearlman is a twee bit darker.

Both are great - just different. Difference is subtle and I used them with different chains so maybe the difference is in the chains. Mainly used the Pearlman with REDD47 pre and RS124. The Tele was Neve into CL1b.
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