The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Record The Bricasti Condenser Microphones
Old 18th September 2016
  #1
Lives for gear
 
JayTee4303's Avatar
Record The Bricasti

Just do it.

Dial it in, capture dry, obviously, and then grab the M7 outs, left and right, while you're right there tracking something that's ALREADY working during the take.

No issues later with delay compensation or...non-compensation as the case may be.

Insert Schminsert.

No pressure later to use the ambience, but I suspect you will. A clear shot at layered M7 processing in post. At half the cost.

Yes, it will cost you two inputs and two tracks. While your 2i2 and single core AMD with one gig of RAM might seize up, stick a piston thru the ceiling, and spew megabytes all over the control room floor, c'mon...who here runs a Bri thru a pocket calculator, or is gonna lose sleep over two extra tracks?

Try it. Nothing ventured, nothing lost.

But I bet your ears and your mixes thank me.

:-)
Old 19th September 2016
  #2
Gear Addict
 

Not gonna lie. Using auxilliaries for reverb has always worked pretty well for me. If I need to use the unit again with different settings I do a capture and change settings.

But that's just my workflow. The routing for your idea is far simpler if performers want to hear themselves live though if you don't have access to any direct monitoring before software.
Old 19th September 2016
  #3
Lives for gear
 
JayTee4303's Avatar
Routing can get complicated here. Pres live in the vocal studio, and either feed a Saffire Pro-40, or a 12/4 snake into the control room. The Pro-40 offers local DSP monitoring, and local tracking, with Sneakernet delivery to primary DAWs. It also feeds 16 I/O into the fiber optic backbone (Z-Systems Opti-Patch Plus) for digital routing anywhere in the facility. Another usual opportunity for direct monitoring is in the CR, with the return ADAT feed back to Vox carrying monitors and sync, or, similar routing using the snake returns. That's how the M7 would be used live, as it lives in the CR.


The CR I/O rack consists of 3 Motu 2408s and an HD-1-192, with the M7 on AES in and out of the 192. From there it can be fed into any or all rack outputs via DSP, 36 analog and/or 80 digital. The primary DAW, Sonar X2P, allows a stereo and two mono routings out of the M7.

I had been using an external insert on the Reverb bus in Sonar to send and return M7 signals, with aux sends on group busses to the Reverb buss. Go to Verbs include TRacks Hall and Valhalla Vintage, in addition to the M7 insert, and the M7 marginally outperformed the ITB options.

But playback never matched the depth and excitement of the M7 as heard duribg tracking. With the external insert in use, the only option for tracking the M7's output were the L and R mono signals, so I set up and armed a pair of mono tracks and just recorded dry vox, and the M7 output.

Kabam!

THERE was the M7 glory, heard on tracking, but only now fully realized in the playback mix. SO much more articulate and present.

I'm guessing it is a function of less than perfect latency compensation. As an aux...thru an External Insert...the vox moves from individal track to vox buss to verb buss in the box, out the DAW into DSP, out AES, thru the M7, back in AES to DSP and back into the DAW, and somewhere, most likely between DAW and DSP in the box, there's a sample or more delay that muds things up and robs the M7 of its power and glory.

By capturing vox and both M7 outs, all at once, direct from DSP to DAW, what I hear in the cans is finally what I also hear on playback.

Clearly, this indicates an issue yet to be resolved, as the aux method is too useful too be abandoned, but...why bother? Can you ever expect sample accurate delay compensation, and even if you can, can you ensure it will stay sample accurate with varying processing loads on the computer?

I don't believe so.

I know Casey and crew spent years, decades, really counting time at Lexicon, getting the math perfect for each reflection...aand the simplest, easiest, most reliable way of capturing that day in and out is bringing dry and ambient feeds in, all the same way, all in sample accurate sync.

From here...it looks...and sounds like...an aux send is the inferior method, held in reserve for when the ambience setup on the M7, during tracking, turns out to be less than ideal in the full context at mixdown time.
Old 19th September 2016
  #4
Lives for gear
 
BillSimpkins's Avatar
I just turn off latency compensation on the aux with the M7 insert and factor that into the predelay. No issues while tracking. No latency.
Attached Thumbnails
Record The Bricasti-no-thanks.jpg  
Old 19th September 2016
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Yup. I figure if you do your settings and run completely wet any delay compensation issues can usually be factored into pre delay. Maybe check for encoding issues on your aes input?
Old 20th September 2016
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Also check the wet dry settings maybe?
Old 25th September 2016
  #7
Lives for gear
 
string6theory's Avatar
All my FX rack gear (M7, PCM92, 80, 70, Orville, D/SE) are linked to an API 8200A with mirrored bus outs. These line mixers are great for gain-staging and sub mixing, along with summing and gluing through the API 2520's. I use an AD16X off the 8 API direct outs for FX capture by individual track. Or, alternatively, capture the API bus outs with a grouped mix of multiple track FX to the B2 or DSD.

Capturing a full level of reverb vs a typical, reduced post fader reverb send level (or vs capturing reverb on the same track as the instrument) opens up many more creative tracking AND mixing possibilities. It's also sweet to here the M7 in it's full glory (and know it's captured as such) even though it will be reduced in level for the mix.

Old 25th September 2016
  #8
Lives for gear
 
JayTee4303's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post
All my FX rack gear (M7, PCM92, 80, 70, Orville, D/SE) are linked to an API 8200A with mirrored bus outs. These line mixers are great for gain-staging and sub mixing, along with summing and gluing through the API 2520's. I use an AD16X off the 8 API direct outs for FX capture by individual track. Or, alternatively, capture the API bus outs with a grouped mix of multiple track FX to the B2 or DSD.

Capturing a full level of reverb vs a typical, reduced post fader reverb send level (or vs capturing reverb on the same track as the instrument) opens up many more creative tracking AND mixing possibilities. It's also sweet to here the M7 in it's full glory (and know it's captured as such) even though it will be reduced in level for the mix.

I'm not sure this is a level thing I'm hearing, It started as a setup test, mediocre Rode NT1a into a TC Helicon Voiceworks Plus pre, which, because of its processing capability, sits in the CR FX rack instead of the vox booth pre rack, the only handy pre available at the time I was setting up the CRs hardware sends.

The TC feeds a MOTU HD192, the first loop in and out of the 192 hosts an 1176 and LA2a, and a second loop passes thru an Ashly 3102 GEQ.

I need some significant EQ on artist cans to be able to pitch properly, and decent pitch is easier to listen to on looped playback dialing in the compressors. During that process, I was also stepping thru the Bricasti presets and taking notes on their various qualities and settings.

Tapping the signal out of the compressors for the dry recorded track, then playing back, I noticed the Bricasti magic was nowhere near as enticing on playback as what I heard thru the cans while dropping the take.

My headphone feed is all otb from DSP in the 192 so as to avoid any latency hassles thru the DAW.That includes the M7's stereo output. So....in the cansI'm monitoring mic >pre >1176 and LA2a >EQ >Bricasti, all otb.

In Sonar, I'm tracking mic >pre >1176 and LA2a, period. EQ in Sonar on the box buss, post. Then the M7 send and return on a hardware insert, which has much less of the M7s vitality that I heard direct.

In Sonar I have a send fader from the vox buss to the verb buss, send and return faders for the external insert and the buss fader on the verb buss. The M7s meters bounce identically on playback as during the take.

Best I can tell, that leaves two variables... either or both of which might explain why the ambience on playback doesn't approach what I hear live. Minor differences in Ashly versus Sonar EQ, and timing/latency issues using the external insert.

Signal level mismatch... had to believe since I'm trying a very wide range of mixed ambience on playback, none of which equals the M7 sparkle heard direct.

I don't get that sparkle back till I track the M7 along w vox, but when I do,bam,there it is again. And its present across a wide level of relative signal stren strengths...no matter how much or little I mix in.

Next step is clearly to lose both EQs, apples vs apples. Then print both dry vox plus tracked verb... and dry vox with insert verb... null them and run what's left thru a spec-A looking for clues.

In any event, I have a handy new arrow in the quiver. Until and unless I find a better solution from analysis, tracking the ambience used during the take is now SOP here.
Old 26th September 2016
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Casey's Avatar
 

During Tracking, when you use the M7 in line (as an insert), the M7 must pass the dry signal while also adding in the reverb. So in this case you would press the "Sys" button and scroll to "Dry Level" and set it to Full (and press Enter) to pass all the dry signal. Then you would scroll to the "Wet Level" and set it to say -6dB (and press Enter) so that you are mixing the reverb in at a level that is 6dB below your dry signal.

When you are mixing, you are using a send return path so in this case you must set the "Dry Level" to Off (and press Enter) and set the "Wet Level" to Full (and press Enter.) Now none of the dry signal is passed through the M7 and all of the reverb is being sent back through your return.

Hope this helps.



-Casey
Old 26th September 2016
  #10
Lives for gear
 
JayTee4303's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey View Post
During Tracking, when you use the M7 in line (as an insert), the M7 must pass the dry signal while also adding in the reverb. So in this case you would press the "Sys" button and scroll to "Dry Level" and set it to Full (and press Enter) to pass all the dry signal. Then you would scroll to the "Wet Level" and set it to say -6dB (and press Enter) so that you are mixing the reverb in at a level that is 6dB below your dry signal.

When you are mixing, you are using a send return path so in this case you must set the "Dry Level" to Off (and press Enter) and set the "Wet Level" to Full (and press Enter.) Now none of the dry signal is passed through the M7 and all of the reverb is being sent back through your return.

Hope this helps.



-Casey
Thanks Casey. I don't recall how I set that up while working thru the manual at install time, but I'd be surprised at anything other than as a fully wet send. I know I'm not in System regularly, switching back and forth, the M7 has it's own faders in DSP, and my ears are pretty sure we're fully wet, full time, but it's easy enough to check.

I can usually 'eyeball' lighter multi-variate calculus trends and dependancies in my head, but you coded the math inside this beast and it's WAY beyond that level. If you find a few minutes and could post a bit on what un-intentional latencies, as possible in an External Insert on a DAW's ambience buss, might do to your carefully calculated algorithms, and how it affects perception, it may shed light for many here.

My understanding on this subject is clouded but my gut is telling me there might be audible implications in at least two areas...the latency...and also possibly in any net difference between an interleaved stereo return, and a pair of hard panned mono returns coming back from the M7.

Love the M7, love Bricasti's attitude. Two thumbs up!
Old 22nd November 2016
  #11
Gear Nut
 
currentstatus's Avatar
 

I use the M7 in digital AES mode for all tracking and mixing same as my PCM92's and Eventide.. less latency all round. All 4ch of AES in/outs on my Symphony is used for those outboard units as AUX I/O send/ret.. mixing all live in box.. then coming out with everything else via 4 stereo analogue busses on Mytek 192.. into a 32ch summing box.

The remaining 16 analogue outs from the symphony are used to send signals to vintage gear.. as and when.. like a patch bay.

I can't think of any other setup which works better.. where the audio quality is not too compromised and the latency is kept minimal.

Not sure about Sonar or PT but Logic has a I/O routing plugin.. required if using ouboard on AUX's.. that plugin has a ping facility which helps with adjusting latency between gear. It also has a trim level for send/return so you can set just the right amount of overal signal in/out.

That's one thing I've noticed with the M7.. more so than the 92's.. it's more sensitive to the correct "drive" input level.. the sweet spot.. and it differs between progs.
Old 22nd November 2016
  #12
Lives for gear
 
gainreduction's Avatar
 

I did the this in my small, dry tracking room. I set up a pair of sdc omni mics in the roof which feed the Bricasti analog ins directly (obviously with a micpre in between). These are "room mics" with an infinitely variable room!

It sounds great and I have tried this many times in the past with no luck with other reverbs. The M7 is the only one that pulls it off. Sounds better than most rooms.

Old 22nd November 2016
  #13
Gear Nut
 
currentstatus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gainreduction View Post
I did the this in my small, dry tracking room. I set up a pair of sdc omni mics in the roof which feed the Bricasti analog ins directly (obviously with a micpre in between). These are "room mics" with an infinitely variable room!

It sounds great and I have tried this many times in the past with no luck with other reverbs. The M7 is the only one that pulls it off. Sounds better than most rooms.

Sounds like a great idea.. I know the M7 likes a lively input.. and I know it sounds interesting when fed from other reverbs/fx.

So I've had this idea of making an adjustable room mic.. using a camera a slider/dolly fitted to the ceiling of the live room.. and a remote control in the control room. I've got one of these I was going to use.. a 2 meter version: Modulo | DitoGear.com

The controler is fed with just a cat-5 cable.. was going to strap a stereo SM69 to it.. remotely move closer/further from the source by 2m.. and try it with the M7.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump