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Siemens SM204/23 thread
Old 1st June 2019
  #31
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
Knowing C12 and SM204/23 fairly well, and after re-biasing C12 to cathode, on principle (lower noise), I can report that both mics sound pretty much alike when equipped with the same flat-dish CK12.

Speaking of dishes:

Deep dish capsules had not yet been invented by the time the Siemens C12 version was discontinued. The earliest mic I ever saw with a deep dish CK12 was the second generation ELA M251, ca. mid-1960.
Actually, when I studied philosophy at the university, the most important matter was the verification of the term, we are using, and if really we are talking about the same thing. Might be it is lost in the translation, but there is no definition of the term "deep dish". ( Literally, I haven't found it ). And I was always thinking that it means CK12 with a bigger chamber. Which were two the earlier version of CK12. (was proven by Tim Campbell who worked with my capsules). So if it means by something else - my apologies, English is not my native language. It was meant- there was an earlier big chamber capsule which I meant "deep dish"(deeper chamber)
Old 1st June 2019
  #32
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
Actually, when I studied philosophy at the university, the most important matter was the verification of the term, we are using, and if really we are talking about the same thing. Might be it is lost in the translation, but there is no definition of the term "deep dish". ( Literally, I haven't found it ). And I was always thinking that it means CK12 with a bigger chamber. Which were two the earlier version of CK12. (was proven by Tim Campbell who worked with my capsules). So if it means by something else - my apologies, English is not my native language. It was meant- there was an earlier big chamber capsule which I meant "deep dish"(deeper chamber)
Wasn’t it the later CK12 with the “deep dish” and the earlier with the “flat dish”?
Old 1st June 2019
  #33
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Klaus's Avatar
 

I appreciate the opportunity to clarify terms.
"Deep dish" is generally understood to mean CK12 capsule backplates introduced in 1960 whose screw-in resonators are thinner in the center, i.e. the acoustic cavity formed is deeper and larger, by about 0.025" compared with the previous generation CK12 in use since 1953 (see picture comparison: left = flat dish, right = deep dish).

There were quite a few other dimensional changes introduced to the CK12 over the decades, which go beyond this discussion, but the transition from flat to deep dish resonator is probably the most audible: a rise in the upper mid range of the response.
Attached Thumbnails
Siemens SM204/23 thread-flat-dish-vs.-deep-dish-ck12-resonator.jpg  
Old 1st June 2019
  #34
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by toledo3 View Post
Wasn’t it the later CK12 with the “deep dish” and the earlier with the “flat dish”?
I was always thinking, the "deep dish" meant a bigger / deeper chamber. Two first CK12 had a bigger chamber. As being a not native speaker, I'm very open to repair myself and make a proper definition of the matter. Verification of what it means " a deep /flat dish" would be quite healthy.
Old 1st June 2019
  #35
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
I appreciate the opportunity to clarify terms.
"Deep dish" it is generally understood to mean CK12 capsule backplates whose screw-in resonators are thinner in the center, i.e. the cavity formed is deeper
So then, the description of SM204 capsule is much better: " the early big chamber capsule" than "deep dish". Thanks for clarifying terms to the foreigner. I believe it is now more clear what I was meant.
Old 1st June 2019
  #36
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jjblair's Avatar
There's a well know mic tech in LA who insists that all CK12s are the same, and there are no revisions.
Old 2nd June 2019
  #37
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
There's a well know mic tech in LA who insists that all CK12s are the same, and there are no revisions.
Hmm, so why the first had different material of skin and even the second one bigger chamber? That is no revision? I personally had two big chamber CK12s in my SM2O4s. Proved by Tim Campbell.I guess Tim Campbell or Klaus are the right men to know it.

Last edited by carloff; 2nd June 2019 at 11:12 AM..
Old 2nd June 2019
  #38
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Klaus's Avatar
 

Terms used in technical discussions matter:
If you mean by "chamber" the size of the resonator cavity, dictated by the depth of the resonator disk (commonly referred to as "dish"), and if the capsules in your early-model Siemens mics did have deep dish resonators, then they were not originally installed in these mics, which came with flat dish resonators, but added after mid-1960.
Old 2nd June 2019
  #39
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
Terms used in technical discussions matter:
If you mean by "chamber" the size of the resonator cavity, dictated by the depth of the resonator disk (commonly referred to as "dish"), and if the capsules in your early-model Siemens mics did have deep dish resonators, then they were not originally installed in these mics, which came with flat dish resonators, but added after mid-1960.
Actually, you are very right, I went through 5 years old emails and Tim wrote to me about my mics in 2014:
" these are very early
CK12's made within the first 100 and are mechanically different with a
the lower output than more modern capsules "
and
"The resonant chamber in these
capsules is only 1/3rd the size of the chamber in an AKG CK12 capsule from
the 60's, "

So thank you, Klaus, for repairing me: The Siemens capsule is smaller, not bigger chamber capsule. But it looks, it is really very rare capsule.
Anyway JJ, it seems the " no revision" theory of LA technician is wrong.
Old 14th June 2019
  #40
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SM204 vs C12 vs ELAM

I recently compared prime and unmodified vintage examples of AKG C12, SM204/23, ELA M251 and ELA M250. All original PSU‘s of the mics are fully restored and calibrated to correct heater voltage.

C12 (SrNr 172) and SM204/23 (SrNr 116) sound very close to each other, not much different. The SM204 has a slightly lower output.
SM204 has an early CK12, i guess C12 has a later one, it looks like early 60‘s, but dont know exactly.
Both have a big transformer inside, not Haufe.
They sound like butter, very nice top end. Bright but never harsh.

M250/251 were quite different. More „natural“ , like „real“, crazy mids, amazing top end (not as bright as C12).
From top to bottom warm and cosy but still super precise, more edgy and straight forward than both C12.

Sound of both ELAM‘s also very close to each other.

The SM204/23 is clearly sounding like a C12, not like an ELA M250/251.
Attached Thumbnails
Siemens SM204/23 thread-72ffe0a0-4b22-4129-9015-a1c4d50b086c.jpg  
Old 14th June 2019
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by feater View Post
I recently compared prime and unmodified vintage examples of AKG C12, SM204/23, ELA M251 and ELA M250. All original PSU‘s of the mics are fully restored and calibrated to correct heater voltage.

C12 (SrNr 172) and SM204/23 (SrNr 116) sound very close to each other, not much different. The SM204 has a slightly lower output.
SM204 has an early CK12, i guess C12 has a later one, it looks like early 60‘s, but dont know exactly.
Both have a big transformer inside, not Haufe.
They sound like butter, very nice top end. Bright but never harsh.

M250/251 were quite different. More „natural“ , like „real“, crazy mids, amazing top end (not as bright as C12).
From top to bottom warm and cosy but still super precise, more edgy and straight forward than both C12.

Sound of both ELAM‘s also very close to each other.

The SM204/23 is clearly sounding like a C12, not like an ELA M250/251.
Cool!

WOULD it be possible for you to PM sound examples preferably on voice c12 vs 251/250. I'm very interested hearing the difference

Both mics are very expensive but I guess an 251 is almost twice of a c12 these days
Old 14th June 2019
  #42
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Yes, sure... i‘ll pm samples next week


Quote:
Originally Posted by crille_mannen View Post
Cool!

WOULD it be possible for you to PM sound examples preferably on voice c12 vs 251/250. I'm very interested hearing the difference

Both mics are very expensive but I guess an 251 is almost twice of a c12 these days
Old 15th June 2019
  #43
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jjblair's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
Actually, you are very right, I went through 5 years old emails and Tim wrote to me about my mics in 2014:
" these are very early
CK12's made within the first 100 and are mechanically different with a
the lower output than more modern capsules "
and
"The resonant chamber in these
capsules is only 1/3rd the size of the chamber in an AKG CK12 capsule from
the 60's, "

So thank you, Klaus, for repairing me: The Siemens capsule is smaller, not bigger chamber capsule. But it looks, it is really very rare capsule.
Anyway JJ, it seems the " no revision" theory of LA technician is wrong.
Yeah. I know he's wrong. I was just pointing it out.
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