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Trinnov vs Sonarworks... General Trinnov thoughts? Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 4th May 2016
  #1
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Trinnov vs Sonarworks... General Trinnov thoughts?

I've been demoing sonarworks and am very impressed.

I was very sceptical of the concept but it's definitely improved my monitoring situation and can very much recommend it.

In terms of workflow it's not ideal, but definitely worth it.

It's got me wondering about the Trinnov st2 pro which i've read seems to be the one to beat for room eq.

I know they are not really comparable, the trinnov has way more features, but i'm wondering if anyone has compared them?

More generally, if you have the trinnov system are you happy with it and would you recommend it?

It would be a big investment for me but i am a professional mixer so reliable monitoring is my number one priority. Would be more fun to buy a bricasti though...!
Old 4th May 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr XY View Post
i am a professional mixer so reliable monitoring is my number one priority.
Hello,

The gain of these products is a myth.

Treat your room is the only way.
Old 4th May 2016
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Hello,

The gain of these products is a myth.

Treat your room is the only way.
Hi, thanks for your input.

Perhaps i should have mentioned but my room is extensively treated, with design input from a professional acoustician. I don't physically have room for any more treatment so there is not much else i can do in that regard.

I was sceptical too but as i mentioned i'm very impressed with sonarworks, it's allowed me to mix quicker,with more confidence and better translation, so I'm personally sold on the concept and don't think it's a myth at all.
Old 4th May 2016
  #4
Lives for gear
If with Sonar, you have an improvement of your job, do not hesitate, use Sonar.

The most important is your feeling.
Old 5th May 2016
  #5
If my memory serves me right, some of our clients have compared our stuff with Trinnov and the results were inconclusive. We're not really gunning to best Trinnov, because they occupy a whole different price range. Having not actually tried Trinnov, I'd guess that there might be some room/speaker combos where our software could go toe to toe with them.

As for myths - there are some things digital calibration will never be able to compensate for. However it would be too much to say that if Sonarworks, Dirac or Trinnov can't do everything, then they are useless. Bass, for example, is extremely hard to completely tame with physical treatments only, so EQ'ing will save you a lot of money and time. Treat your room to battle the effects digital correction can't handle and leave the rest for software.
Old 5th May 2016
  #6
Lives for gear
Isn't Trinnov coming with some nice special microphone? Aren't they doing more than EQ? I remember they also fiddle with the timing domain.
Old 5th May 2016
  #7
Yup, see here -



You can't really compensate phase issues if you have a mic with only one head. We've done some explorations in phase correction and we had to rig a multimic array - like a pitchfork. Otherwise it's a no go. And you absolutely have to stick to phase linear filters, as they don't introduce phase distortion of their own.

Interestingly enough we also have done phase correction to headphones, however the topic still needs some research as the audible effect was sometimes actually worse.
Old 8th May 2016
  #8
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrodulf View Post
Yup, see here -



You can't really compensate phase issues if you have a mic with only one head. We've done some explorations in phase correction and we had to rig a multimic array - like a pitchfork. Otherwise it's a no go. And you absolutely have to stick to phase linear filters, as they don't introduce phase distortion of their own.

Interestingly enough we also have done phase correction to headphones, however the topic still needs some research as the audible effect was sometimes actually worse.
Phase changes with the microphone position (with one or hundred heads). How would you correct it ?

The only way is the acoustic treatement.
Old 8th May 2016
  #9
GSF
Gear Addict
As someone who has used both...each has their benefits, but Trinnov is on a totally different (higher) level of quality and flexibility.
Old 25th August 2016
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
Rythm'BackStudio's Avatar
 

Is there a low latency solution to the the Trinnov?
Old 3rd November 2016
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Trinnov ST2 Pro Review

Hey fellow gear heads, here is a review that I originally posted on my studio website, Snow Wood Studios. Thought it might help you.

As the old saying goes, you really don't know what you are missing until you have it.

With my case, that is 110% true.

I am proud to announce the addition of a renowned French company, Trinnov Audio to Snow Wood Studios. This amazing audio processor will enhance and help to improve mixes for all clients, no matter the genre. In blanket terms, it is a room correction processor, but it is so much more.

Due in part to a grant from the French Government and many years of research, this processor takes any speaker system and corrects for frequency response, phase alignment, speaker positioning, crossover points, impulse response and more. Those of you that are less inclined to read about technical things just need to know that this one upgrade is like watching an old VHS tape and comparing it to a 4K Blu-ray. There is just no comparison to other units on the market that do similar things. The Trinnov is the top of the line, partly because they use a full-featured Intel processor (instead of an off the shelf SHARC or other DSP processor) to do the heavy lifting and number crunching, along with a custom user interface. No matter what I say, I simply can't tell you how much this allows you to SEE and HEAR in a mix. You have to experience it for yourself.

Background

While I was doing some tracking down at Blackbird Studios in Nashville, I contacted my rep at Vintage King audio to pick up some gear that I needed to finish a mix for a client. After talking shop with him for a bit on the details of my studio he mentioned the Trinnov ST2 to me. To be honest, I tend to take everything that sales reps tell me with a grain of salt, because obviously, they have a incentive behind telling you about a product in the first place. For a few days afterwards, I didn't think much about it but then I found myself with a few hours to kill and decided it wouldn't hurt to get a demo of this product and see what it can actually do.

I would like to let whoever is reading this to know that the room I demoed this in at Vintage King audio has easily $30,000 invested in the design/acoustics of the room. And at the time I was there, $47,000 of Bearfoot Sound, Master Stack 12 speakers were on display. It is an impressive system to begin with already. If I could hear a difference there, then it would be without a doubt beneficial to my studio. I arrived ready to spend several hours blind testing the system with my favorite reference tracks. I expected to be listening for the minutiae in difference of the response of the system. I expected to get maybe a 10-15% improvement in my studio setup. What I expected, was wrong.

Why do I need this?

When a monitoring system is installed, high-end audiophile speakers can get you a long ways in improving the quality of your studio. But at the end of the day, precision components and solidly built speakers can only get you so far. Unless you mix in a anechoic chamber, what you hear is still influenced by your room, furniture in it, rack gear, mix desk and so on. The Trinnov system takes all that out of the equation and makes both of your speakers work together in tandem.

The biggest difference I felt was when you engage the Trinnov, your speakers don't sound like two separate sound sources. There doesn't seem to be a left and a right speaker anymore, just one whole cohesive image spread out in front of you. This gives you the ability to properly pan and position instruments like never before. You can hear compression artifacts and the slightest of changes in reverb settings so much easier due to the phase correction algorithms. Sound Field Editing on my Neve Master Buss Processor is much more pronounced as I can precisely place how wide I want the stereo image to be.

What about the competition?

This phase correction is the biggest selling point of the unit to me and is where Trinnov truly excels. It is able to correct these issues because of the special microphone they developed with 4 omni-drectional capsules. The three capsules in a triangular position allow for exact phase correction and remapping of the speakers to proper positioning. The 4th capsule allows for remapping in 3D and placement of the speakers on a level plane. Other room correction systems use a single omni capsule and only correct frequency amplitude. Still after that, you have to remember to insert their plugin on every session you work on AND remove it before you bounce the session out to your client. Not the most elegant solution in my opinion. What would happen when you want to play reference material outside of your DAW? You can't run a plugin with iTunes. The competition becomes a half-baked solution that is inconvenient at best.

Cons
From the beginning, there was no manual included with the product and their website only has a French version that I could find. Not super helpful there. But if you are comfortable working with tech in general, it's not that hard to figure out how to plug everything in, and take a few minutes familiarizing yourself with the software.

The one and only downside I experienced to the product is that during the setup process, I discovered that the unit did not have the latest firmware installed on it nor the correct map for the serial number of my microphone. My sales rep unfortunately just forgot or was too busy to look into it for me, so I had to contact Trinnov directly and set up a time for them to remotely take control of the computer. Since they are on the other side of the planet, after a few emails back and forth (over the course of a few days) I left my unit on overnight, hooked up to my network, and when I woke up in the morning, voila! Through the magic of the internet, I now had a fully updated system.

Summary
To sum up my experience, it has been nothing more than incredible. I can't tell you anything other than go buy it if you are at all serious about mixing audio. It makes a world of difference and I will likely never sell it, unless Trinnov comes out with an upgrade to the current model. It has become as essential to me in crafting a mix, as a hammer is for a carpenter. Now, if I could just find enough time to go back and re-mix all of my old sessions...
Old 4th November 2016
  #12
GSF
Gear Addict
I own both..I've mixed albums with the Sonarworks and it's been very helpful, especially with low end. The Trinnov, however, is on a completely different level. Now that I have it, I'm not sure I can work without it.
Old 5th November 2016
  #13
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jlaws's Avatar
Is the cheapest trinnov system about 4 grand?
Old 5th November 2016
  #14
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They should launch a more affordable version for sure. Now that they have the technology.
Old 5th November 2016
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
Is the cheapest trinnov system about 4 grand?
$4700... 4K for the processor, 700 for the mic.
Old 9th November 2016
  #16
Here for the gear
 

Yep, it aint cheap, but sooooo worth it. The best investment I have made in a long time. I happened to grab my unit after Vintage King had their demo unit at NAMM, so got to save a few bucks.
Old 9th November 2016
  #17
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Markoakland's Avatar
 

Has anyone tried MiniDSP DiracLive or know anyone who did???
Trinnov is so expensive, i cant afford that.
Old 9th November 2016
  #18
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Dirac Live has a demo if I am not mistaken. If you happen to have a calibrated mic you can test it. I did and I quite liked it. I can't compare to Trinnov though. In the end I chose Python Open Room Correction (PORC). It's a nightmare to set up, but it's results were on par with Dirac Live for me, and it is a completely free program.
Old 17th November 2016
  #19
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ElectricCompany's Avatar
 

Sonarworks is really great for the price and works as advertised, worth having while saving up for Trinnov
Old 21st December 2016
  #20
Long time trinnov st user here...today the unit didn't boot....luckily just a stuck fan was the reason and some gentle push solved the problem....

Back in the time of purchase the former dealer in germany did quite a few manual tweaks in the advanced settings page of the units preferences.
I will post pics of this page so maybe some other users can chime in so i can compare with mine as i don't want to revert to factory default...?
Attached Thumbnails
Trinnov vs Sonarworks... General Trinnov thoughts?-img_6247.jpg   Trinnov vs Sonarworks... General Trinnov thoughts?-img_6248.jpg   Trinnov vs Sonarworks... General Trinnov thoughts?-img_6249.jpg  

Last edited by housegezeichnet; 3rd May 2017 at 10:35 PM..
Old 24th December 2016
  #21
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MrChick's Avatar
 

So done could share the ST2 manual? This is a very interesting machine but I'd like take a look at the manual. THX
Old 29th December 2016
  #22
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChick View Post
So done could share the ST2 manual? This is a very interesting machine but I'd like take a look at the manual. THX
Ask Trinnov support, they'll send you the manual
Old 31st December 2016
  #23
Gear Addict
 
MrChick's Avatar
 

I did it and I got it.

Happy new year!
Old 29th April 2017
  #24
mpr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by housegezeichnet View Post
Long time trinnov st user here...today the unit didn't boot....luckily just a stuck fan was the reason and some gentle push solved the problem....

Back in the time of purchase the former dealer in germany did quite a few manual tweaks in the advanced settings page of the units preferences.
I will post pics of this page so maybe some other users can chime in so i can compare with mine as i don't want to revert to factory default...?
I know its been over a year, but did you ever get this sorted out?

Are these the settings that the German dealer dialed in for your system, or are you trying to optimize again and can't remember what he did?

The main thing that stands out to me is the length of your FIR filter at 20ms. Have you tried going up to 80 or 100ms?
Old 3rd May 2017
  #25
yes these are of course the settings the former dealer for trinnov did based on his own experience....but not in our room but in his own.
i just want to compare which settings in the advanced section other pro users are using....i just did the linear rolloff starting above 1khz after switching back
to ampltude+phase mode and using your recommended lenght of 100ms for the fir filters. latency went up to almost 100ms but i'm tracking with direct monitoring on headphones anyways nowadays
Old 28th February 2018
  #26
Gear Head
 

I have a question regarding the audible difference between a Trinnov system vs. a regular EQ.

I searched gearslutz and the web for actual A/B comparison of room correction software vs. using a regual EQ. While i found much topics like "Trinnov vs. sonaworks. vs DIRAC etc." I have not found much info about how these systems compare to a regular EQ.

I know EQs work in the freq/amplitude domain and don't correct phase - maybe even make them worse. What I'd like to know is how much of an audible difference this makes. Is it "night and day" or do you need to listen very carefully to notice a difference? How would you describe this difference in sound of a Trinnov vs. a nicely set EQ regarding room correction?
Old 28th February 2018
  #27
I am using Sonarworks - as much as I am hppy with it the fact it doesn't deal with the time domain makes it clearly inferior to Trinnov
I was about to invest in Trinnov till I read Bpb Katz raving about Acourate by Audio Vero :
:discovered AudioVero's Acourate and AcourateConvolver software products, whose inventor, Dr. Ulrich BrÅggemann, became one of my mentors in the room-correction field. Of course, I was skeptical of this new approach, and spent a careful year switching back and forth between my pure analog system on its own and with the AcourateConvolver. I became thoroughly convinced that this digital correction system is transparent, does not detract from the warmth of my analog system, and has improved its imaging, coherence, depth, soundstage, purity of tone, and impact. So jump on in, the water's fine."
"I have much to thank Dr. Uli Brueggemann. He is the inventor of the absolutely fabulous audio tool: Acourate, by his company, Audio Vero. Uli has taught me much about digital correction of loudspeakers. His software is able to do things far beyond what any other software or hardware I have encountered can do. For example, in the past I have been content with aligning subwoofer timing to the mains by simply looking at the positive peak of each impulse. But Uli takes this to a very serious science and art with the use of "Sinewave Convolution". The result is so coherent, extended, full, and tight that it's like night and day. So much so that I had to re-evaluate the target I was previously using in the bass.... It now is perfectly flat.... so in many cases those of you who felt your loudspeaker systems needed a bit of EQ, perhaps all you need is proper time alignment :-)."
Old 28th February 2018
  #28
Lives for gear
 

somewhere between sonarworks and trinnov:

lake lm44 / lm26

de facto standard in live sound, controlled by lake controller software, has (almost) unlimited amount of filters, low latency, analog/aes/dante i/o, max. 96khz, you can link several units etc.

haven't got a chance to compare the contenders yet...
Attached Files
Old 28th February 2018
  #29
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Udi Koomran View Post
I am using Sonarworks - as much as I am hppy with it the fact it doesn't deal with the time domain makes it clearly inferior to Trinnov
I was about to invest in Trinnov till I read Bpb Katz raving about Acourate by Audio Vero :
:discovered AudioVero's Acourate and AcourateConvolver software products, whose inventor, Dr. Ulrich BrÅggemann, became one of my mentors in the room-correction field. Of course, I was skeptical of this new approach, and spent a careful year switching back and forth between my pure analog system on its own and with the AcourateConvolver. I became thoroughly convinced that this digital correction system is transparent, does not detract from the warmth of my analog system, and has improved its imaging, coherence, depth, soundstage, purity of tone, and impact. So jump on in, the water's fine."
"I have much to thank Dr. Uli Brueggemann. He is the inventor of the absolutely fabulous audio tool: Acourate, by his company, Audio Vero. Uli has taught me much about digital correction of loudspeakers. His software is able to do things far beyond what any other software or hardware I have encountered can do. For example, in the past I have been content with aligning subwoofer timing to the mains by simply looking at the positive peak of each impulse. But Uli takes this to a very serious science and art with the use of "Sinewave Convolution". The result is so coherent, extended, full, and tight that it's like night and day. So much so that I had to re-evaluate the target I was previously using in the bass.... It now is perfectly flat.... so in many cases those of you who felt your loudspeaker systems needed a bit of EQ, perhaps all you need is proper time alignment :-)."
This looks very promising. I'm asking myself how this is possible without the 3D measuring mic of the Trinnov brand? And I'm still curios about the audible difference between time/phase systems like Trinnov and Acourate vs. regular EQ.
Old 28th February 2018
  #30
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Acourate by Audio Vero:
Very inexpensive but ...
On the website it seems like it's made for Windows. For Mac, it's been tested "with Parallels. The communication with soundcards has to be done by Asio4All".
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