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Comments on PT 6...
Old 30th October 2002
  #31
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Re: Re: HD is growing

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


The so-called big studio wasn't very well-equipped if an HD upgrade did them in.

HD's potential advantage for the big studios is in the number of outputs to the console possible for the price. Not plug-ins (the main ones I see people using in big rooms anyway are auto-tune and pitch-n-time) and not sound.

The current freelancer in our room (from England) wants Apogee and Prism converters, not HD192, for the album mix. We're trying to find a good 1/2" machine for him as well. From the front lines, FWIW, YMMV.
Hello Jon, actually the Economic climate post 9/11 has being a bit harsh on pro audio. Many studios are selling their bussineses, Emerald Group in Nashville went flop. Gosh, even Mars just went fully under. Another well known studio owned by one of America's best multiple style grammy producer is selling his nice 2 Big control Room studio in Nashville too (I was with them a few months ago, very nice place and gear). Heck not long ago I talked to a studio owner in Miami selling a studio where many of the great Latin music is recorded...selling...

A friend of mine did a session in Nashville, you know, one of the big Nuendo-pictured producers was there, actually he was the cable and mic guy...humm...jobs in Nashville are diminishing....

With so many good Music and Recording technology schools (I went to Berklee when Winton Marsalis had his first band and Keith Jarret was supposed to be having "his very last live solo concert", and then his manager stole all his profits of years of work...)...the issue is, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of well prepared young guys (and girls) out there who know how to really run a session. At Berkelee, producing majors have to be musicians and technicians...and let me tell you, many of them KNOW how to get the classic sound of OLD, albeit with less noise and at a cheaper price than hiring the big guy.

When i was a piano major we studied the styles of Hancock, Evans, Miles and so forth. Then you do thousands of hours of practical application. I used to arrive to berklee at 6 am for a big breakfast (no time for lunch) and only left at midnight when the school closed. And there were many doing the same as me.
Now, production and engineer majors did the same, except they could book the studios overnight. Like me they got theoretical and practical teaching, often times form the big guys themselves, about micking techniques, EQ'ins an so forth. The best of them aquired such a practical education that they could easily go into tracking, mixing or even Mastering, and of course they where tought the command of at least one instrument, and how to read scores...that was back in the 80's...

Now, the current Music-Audio Grads, young fellows, are investing in reasonably priced great mics, buying HDPT and other plataforms. They understand acoustics so they find better rooms to refurbish for themselves or do tracking sessions...And they get great sound...and they know what great sound sounds like...

They pose a great risk to so many decent mid-size-to-semi-large facilities...
But such is the path of knowledge and free enterprise...
Things are changing rapidly in the USA...
More power to the artist and young producers...

Ooopss...I went into Soap Opera mode....
Now about PTHD:

We actually refurbished 2 quite nice studios around here.
Three PT mix suites on each of them. not too long ago...
They all had all the niceties and pricey locations and "designer"design.
Only one of them did 1 upgrade to HD2. none of them can justify at this point moving to bigger HD. They are mad at Digi for offering HD at such nice prices. They feel they are a bit stuck with Mix +++ that they haven't finished paying...
Then also consider the proliferation of good smaller studios (yes i know, many of them stink, but usually those technicians are in their first intents and efforts) and what bussiness will be like in the next few years.

About plug ins: how about having 96k acces to the beloved Waves while staying with PT plataform. Here in USA Waves Bundles and PT are like Adam and Eve...How about having SOME plug-ins work at even a higher rate without having to buy a Sonic Solutions station...
Prisms are cheaper in Europe than in America, right?
Of course they are wonderful pieces. Mastering guys like them here.
Yeah, i would like to have one that does 192...but then i would prefer the Genex or even better, the Meitners...and then I wouldn't have to spend a lot more of cash when i move to DSD...
Oh, Crane Song and PTHD will be marketing their software version of HEDD, a very-very nice digital option for Tape saturation, done the right way, by a tube guy...I just got a version of the Massenburg -Sony Oxford EQ's for HD....
Plug-ins do matter.... Of course top-notch analog gear is a must...until chaos theory gets to be fully applied to computing...or something like that....soon we will superceed the current technological limitations of chip components...IBM has already done it...not for us, the masses...

Paradigms of studio technology are shifting ever more to the HD digital side, as it gets to be closer to analog...Didn't Greg Calbi recently said in EQ mag that "one by one" engineers will be shifting out of Tape, as digital grows up?...heck the Pres of one of the most prestiged Rep companies in America told me the same, and this guy, he too is an audio-guru...

Yes multiple outputs is a nice selling point, no doubt, as well as having access to ADAT and SPDIF and AES/EBU in one unit.
Here in america, most engineers are going 192 I/O, we feel the sound quality is great. We feel its now up to the level of Apogee. They don't sound the same, however. Db technologies is very nice too. Hey, benchmark converters are excellent too, at 96k
Apogee may be loosing a lot of bussiness to the newer 192 interface, that is a fact. But bussiness is growing in their Nuendo side, at the limit of 96k...

A practical converter and Workstation example:

We just did a big rig for a very very famous musician for whom money is definetly not a problem...His manager wanted to go MIX cube and get the Apogees 8 channel converters. We said think twice, the whole thing about: "needing aardvark clocking and Apogee conversion to sound better" only applies to Mix 888/24's. With the new HD that is now some fashion of an audio urban myth. he did his homework in behalf of the big guy...made calls...and ordered PTHD. I just to him last week...
One must use the 192 I/O interface, however. Not the same as 96 k I/O. There is a difference in sound. For my type of use, the 96 I/O will be great as a replacement alternative to the 1622 I/O.

In the begging of the HD assault, most Digidesign DUC Apogee users where still singing, or rather "screaming" "Apogee beats PTHD192"...You don't hear that anywhere as much...Why? Well, those who have made the jump know why...so know you can buy a basic AD-8000 for about 2K and change...my Digi rep, great guy and engineer is selling one of the "S" versions, loaded for 3.5K...a bit steep i told him...
PT MIX is still good, but they need better converters and clocking. No doubt for the "high-ender".

Anyway, I must go for now,
Best wishes Jon,
Arturo
Old 30th October 2002
  #32
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the recording buisness is changing rapidly and so must the marketing and selling of studio sevices...when i owned my studio in miami 24tracks were rare..us, criteria , tk ,and a couple of others and only us and criteria with automated boards...people wanted the equipment and the only place to approach the sound was in a good well equiped studio..now with the advent of digital workstations in the home especially since 24bit recording became the norm...many producers such as myself can do work at home at the same quality as a large facility....my old studio is still alive and actually expanding...i have been bringing is more work since i built my home room . i can bring in projects that normally could not afford a lorge room because i can absorb some of the budget by doing tasks at home and bringing in the project for the essential overdubs and large sessions to the studio...and there are lots of people who work this way...we must change the buisness model of the recording studio...some will go under because ther are too many for the new market...some can promote the talent of the people who work there...other can promote there recording rooms as a adjunct to the home producers ...and some will live on because of their track record,..of coarse this is just my opinion.....
Old 30th October 2002
  #33
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Interesting posts, guys.

Clearly, HD or 002 is the path to choose for someone who wants to buy a first PT system new, particularly with lease terms.

For someone paying cash and looking for a deal, buying a used MixPlus could be an interesting path.

For current owners, if and when to upgrade is less clear and depends a great deal on what you use PT for.

Studios.....As always, I reckon the best of the studios will survive, in terms of talent, acoustics, monitors, gear, reputation, financing/continual investment, location, etc. The others will have a tough time. Nothing new there; this business has always been fast-moving and changing.

However, an HD upgrade in a DAW studio is an small fraction of the investment required for it to compete, sound-wise, with the 9k, 88R, Legacy, 80XX room down the street.

About converters for PT, here would be my personal ranking of those I've compared:

1. Prism
2. Apogee Trak2
3. HD192 / Apogee AD8000 (different sound, depends on taste)
4. HD96 / 888/24

I'll tell what I'm excited about at the moment: Trying out 1-inch 2-track analog tape, on an ATR102 with Aria electronics, as a mixdown format.

With 1/2", if done right, the mix coming back off tape can sound even better than going in. That just never happens with digital -- even with 192k. So, I'm quite keen to hear 1".
Old 1st November 2002
  #34
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon

With 1/2", if done right, the mix coming back off tape can sound even better than going in. That just never happens with digital -- even with 192k. So, I'm quite keen to hear 1".
Thank you, Jon. That's the "kiss of tape" that I was referring to in the other thread that you didn't seem to understand. And why in the world would you even expect that to occur in digital, no matter what the sample rate? The digital storage medium itself will never improve the sound of what goes in. Once you stop expecting it to, then it's easier to evaluate digital recording for what it really is.

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 1st November 2002
  #35
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Re: Comments on PT 6...

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
So, after the PT HD flop (at least, that is how the Digi dealers in town over here are describing it as, since virtually no one except first-time buyers are upgrading) ....
Now which is it, are they first-time buyers or are they upgrading?

And what town are you referring to? Paris? HD has been pronounced dead in Paris? Are you sure rumours of it's demise aren't a bit premature?

When you buy yours will you be a first-time buyer or will you be upgrading?

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 1st November 2002
  #36
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

First-time buyers. Virtually no one here is upgrading.

I'm not pronouncing HD as dead. It hasn't taken the world by storm over here, a few dozen systems have been sold to first-time buyers, and it's selling slowly but steadily. A couple of studios have purchased HD in addition to their MixPlus systems and that is what I may do as well if clients demand it.

So far, high-end client demand for PT HD has been zero. People call and ask about the console, about the size of the live room/lounge/CR, about how many PT outputs, about analog multitracks, about the mics and outboard. Not one query about HD yet, not one. Yes, that may change. We'll see.
Old 1st November 2002
  #37
Quote:
Originally posted by jon


About converters for PT, here would be my personal ranking of those I've compared:

1. Prism
2. Apogee Trak2
3. HD192 / Apogee AD8000 (different sound, depends on taste)
4. HD96 / 888/24
Excuse my dumbness, but are there any converters you can use with an HD system other than the Digi one's?
The HD192 is all very well but the price is extortionate and some people are still questioning the sound.
Old 1st November 2002
  #38
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you can use any converter that will work with the legacy input or that used lightpipe or aes or spdif. but the digi converters are i think as good or better than apogee or the prism and a good value for the money for the same amount of conectivity. these are not the 888s of old both the 96 and 192 sound lots better in my opinion..
Old 1st November 2002
  #39
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

I found the HD96s at 96k to be very colored in a non-musical way. Not much improvement over the 888/24s at 48k.

The HD192s at 192k are pretty bright and detailed (the high end is very open, almost pushed) but sound relatively flat ... in the sense that they lack, to me, the depth / 3D quality that I like in the Apogees, esp. the Trak2 and newer AD8000 units. However, they have more treble response which some may like.

Note: I compared these converters blind on the same live recording simultaneously to four different HD systems (one for each converter) coming back on a Neve VR through 1031s and NS10s. Each converter was running at the highest possible sampling rate it was capable of. The general consensus of those present was in favor of the Trak2 over the HD192, but both units were good and well over the HD96 and 888/24.

The Prisms have a great high end. If treble is important to you, these blow away the HD192 converters. Ask Jules, he's got 'em. Awesome. Very true to source.

I forgot to mention the Genex converters earlier. Very detailed as well, very nice.

The Apogees are not as open-sounding and not as detailed. However, they have a natural 'warmth' (sorry about using that term), low end and depth that I subjectively like.

There are many converters I haven't tried, like db Tech, DCS, Mytek, Lucid, and so on. Like Jules sez, so much gear, so little time.
Old 2nd November 2002
  #40
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Hi Jon,

As I've mentioned in other threads the 192s sound different with every clock I've put on them. The depth and tone improve dramatically driven from the clock on my Myteks. I'd bet they'd sound great off the Prism's clock as well. They are also improved by the Aardsync but not as smooth or deep as the Mytek.rollz The advantage those who wait will enjoy is mature development of plugins and bug fixes. I'll certainly wait for PT 6 til at least summer but I'm quite pleased with HDs sonic improvements particularly clocked from the Myteks.

I've had 2 calls here in our little cowtown inquiring about HD but it wasn't a deal maker/breaker, just interest.

Oops, time to spank the 23 year old...
Old 2nd November 2002
  #41
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


So far, high-end client demand for PT HD has been zero. People call and ask about the console, about the size of the live room/lounge/CR, about how many PT outputs, about analog multitracks, about the mics and outboard. Not one query about HD yet, not one. Yes, that may change. We'll see.
When people call and ask about your PT outputs do they ask what kind of converters you're using? Believe me, if it hasn't happened already, in five minutes nobody's going to want to use those 888's. However, I can certainly understand why people with Mix and Apogee setups, who mix through a console, would not want to upgrade.

Could it be possible that people with PTHD no longer feel a great need to work in a studio such as yours, and that's why there's no demand for it?

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
Old 2nd November 2002
  #42
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mixer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman

Could it be possible that people with PTHD no longer feel a great need to work in a studio such as yours, and that's why there's no demand for it?

Rick Krizman
KrizManic Music
i disagree even though i love my pthd system..and love the converters even more than my old apogees.and horrible 888s.i still need the studio and the console...i am not going to record a large string section using individual preamps even if there were enough the sound need to be consistant and phase coherent....even a good size rythem track. i think most people who can afford the studio will still use it. when i am working for a label of a well funded project a large room with a neve or ssl is always part of the budget...and the small overdubs and sweetening i do at home...i may even mix home....but you will need hd in the studio to do my projects....that a for sure from now on.....
Old 2nd November 2002
  #43
For once I agree with Rick on this one.
The least that can be said is that the large studios are losing a certain proportion of their work.
I know a film composer who does all his work at home other than the odd bit of strings or orchestra. This wouldn't have been possible before systems like Pro Tools.
Many bands are writing and recording almost all their albums, with the exception of possibly drum tracking or the booking of a decent mix room. In fact I know many people who are planning their own (home) drum rooms cutting out studios completely.
Before the affordable end of the digital revolution I wouldn't have been able to do half the things I can now do without spending large amounts of money in established studios.
Unfortunately the record industry and film & tv companies have realised this and budgets have been slashed.
Old 2nd November 2002
  #44
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Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
Today I have my biggest tracking session so far in HD. I'm doing our top big band 32trk straight to HD all from outboard pres, didn't even have to resort to the Control 24's pres. yuktyy

Wish me luck as we had to swap out CPUs yesterday afternoon, the dual 800 got evil after we added a couple more drives to the scsi enclosure. Seems to be coincidental as the damn thing would boot about once in 5 or 6 tries. Luckily we had a 933 laying around. Of course it happens on friday afternoon and I won't be able to get my Sony Eqs tranferred til next week.grudge I sure wish Sony would use Ilok... Good thing I didn't have a mix session this weekend!

I'll try to get some pics...
Old 2nd November 2002
  #45
Hey best of luck, are you doing it at 96k?

P.S. I am digging the Sony Dynamics so far...
Old 3rd November 2002
  #46
Lives for gear
 
groundcontrol's Avatar
 

Jules, are you beta testing? I thought they were not available yet?
I hate you!
Old 3rd November 2002
  #47
Here for the gear
 
masteringsouth's Avatar
 

PTHD TRACKING & MIXING

Now, Tracking with good pre's a problem?
Here in the States, unless you have an old Neve or API sidecar, most people with funds prefer to track using pre's, if you have them. It's been quite a while since I've used stock console pre's.
Have you tried tracking with a bunch of Millenia preamps, and sit back and relax, knowing that your headroom is huge? Out of phase and did not realize it during tracking? Not a big deal to solve if you have PT.

Now, for mixing larger projects I still see the value of a nice big console.
However, as I mentioned earlier, young savvy enginneers are able to produce such great work with minimal equipment.
And lately, mixdown sounds better using PTHD alone than it did with the 888/24's...
Big rooms will always be needed to track instruments that need space or to obtain a particular ambient sound.

Have you tried recording those big Japanese drums? Well i haven't either. But not too long ago I had to cut music for a big DVD presentation, to be shown to a few hundred thousand people...well somewher i got a few nice samples...and recorded playing them with my left hand...badda-bing...heck, not even I could tell that I had not used real giant drums in a huge-huge room...

How about electric guitar tracking?
I know, nothing is like the real tube thing. For sure.
But once you have about 32 tracks or more going on and you have to play this thick screaming lead...well...I have this song that I produced for this young lady...I let other musicians and producers hear the solo, then I ask them: How do you like my stack of Marshalls? Hey, listen on this section I am also using a Soldano head....Eventually I have to confess it was ...you guessed...LINE 6 plug-in...
Tracked not in this mega room, but directly in to a nice pre, via the little red MXR Sustain pedal...
Have you guys heard Altiverb? I haven't used it yet but I hear is better than all other plug-ins. Too bad I had to sell my PCM-91 because it couldn't do 96 k...
Would i love to have Big rooms? You bet. But last time I had to mix down (44khz) and edit a nice classical work and then we discovered this track making noise in one channel (which also had a lot of the ambiance)...what did I do? I grab info from another channel, had to re-Eq a bit, and then used Lexicon Plug-in...the Composer and the Producer dropped their jaws the next day...with automation and several hours of editing nobody new anything was ever wrong...and think that the choir and orchestra were recorded in this Byzantine style mid-size chapel with amazing reverb for choir...fixed with PT and a Pug-in...
I do appreciate your opinion guys...oh..yes...i did use 888's on that project...
Old 19th November 2002
  #48
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just came from a protools 6 in depth demo . it is still evolving since aes..and will change even more when it comes out in january. the finder function and file organization is amazing something i have been looking for...also the background processing is improved no more waiting for much of the processing it is done in the background allowing you to work while fades and other processes are going on...no more frezzes.on the fly tdm plugs and the new beat detective 2 rocks..then colors and look are not finished yet but the interface looks good..most of the pluggins are either ready or will be at the time of release...i am a lot more exited about pt6 than i was before..and now am planning to upgrade as soon as possible...it did crash a couple of times but the kinks are being worked on..oh yeah the session import is amazing..no more resseting up the mixer or each song.
Old 24th November 2002
  #49
Here for the gear
 

First, I would like to relay how much I enjoy reading posts on this website. It’s cool to be able to find so many informed points of view.

Brief background I mix and track for Film, Music, Remote and Broadcast. 5.1 all the way to mono.

PT 6 has a new way to look at audio files and import them into a session. The volume browser, very slick. You audition the tracks before importing them. The twist to the import is that you can drag a file from the browser to the current timeline. However, no one could tell me if it copies the files to the session or if it just imports the file. If it just imports the file you could be looking at file management issues. Big ones.

The whole "reel switching" function is good but needs much more thought. It would have been much better to give you the option of creating Bins for projects. Then give you the option to open the project bin in another project. Each song or edit becomes a sequence that can be loaded in to the timeline. In addition, to take that one step further, allowing you to open two time lines in one session. Automation, plugins, and all. Swapping files and elements of a mix, be it a post mix, or music mix would be much easier. The time line becomes much more flexible. This would most likely call for a new way to manage media files. But hey, none of us have ever had problems with that right!?

Also another issue lies with the fact that not one Digi rep could tell me how the additional processor in a Mac will be used now that it runs on OSX. Will it process plugins, render effects, allowing for backround processing? It would be nice to know.

Next machine control is being updated. They claim that remote track arming and control is better. There is more configuration control for the 9-pin protocol. Also for post users this is a big one, you now have the ability to put your marker any where in the timeline and change the time code at that point in time. So you don't have to do timecode calculations if your mix does not start at the beginning of the session.

The midi editing functionality has been improved. You can zoom in and edit midi tracks just like editing audio tracks. Oh yea and it works with mix systems!!!

Good improvements over all. My advise, make sure to wait a few months before loading. It’s never good to be the first kid on the block with new Digi software.

As far as Mix to HD users, I plan to possibly upgrade two rooms in 2004. And maybe by a small system for myself early next year. Most owners and users I know have not made the move yet. Some because of plugins, some because of $$$. For post suites it really does not make sences yet. Also when HD launched it was not ready. The sync and midi boxes where not out yet and it took a while for the plugins to catch up. And to be honest, it’s expensive. All new drives, new I/O, new sync box, new computer. A good HD3 system will run you between $30,000 and $40,000 (very little plugins). And depending on your setup very little if any equipment can be re purposed. So if you can afford it , for music it could be good. You can get a Nuendo system or motu system for much less. No they are not the industry standard, but watch out. If you want to just record tracks only and do not internal processing, why pay that much? I hate to be harsh but that sounds insane! Or does it? Protools dominates so much these days I that think most studios will conform. Its hard to march to the beat of your own drum anymore.



King Long Fades
Old 24th November 2002
  #50
Jax
Lives for gear
 

"A good HD3 system will run you between $30,000 and $40,000 (very little plugins). "

Not sure how you came up with that figure. HD3 lists at $12,995. A pair of 192's at list price would be $8,000. Spend $5,000 on plug-ins and you would have LOTS of them. So.. that brings the total to about $26,000.

For all of that at dealer prices you would "only" pay about $24,000.

Maybe you're talking about all the other gizmos needed to interface to film? Just an honest question.

p.s. - Infact, I had an HD1 with a 192, another A/D card, and D-sub cabling quoted at $11,000.
Old 24th November 2002
  #51
Here for the gear
 

I stand corrected. The quote I have in my hands for a core system is closer to $20,000 with a few plugins(computer,monitor,firewiredrives). No other out board gear or cableing is inlcuded.If your upgrading a current protools system it is plug and play, but if your not, addtional costs could get you. Furniture, cables,connectors, meters ect. I guess it just depends.

Yes, I do often think of building systems with both post and music in mind these days. My prices always tend to be higher. At my main gig, I have been able to justify some quality gear and plugins.I am replaceing a system in a edting suite in Febuary to either HD or MIX 24. Since protools was not the system in the room before, my costs will go up. Thank god its only a stereo suite. Dolby encoding/decoding gear can be costly!


King Long Fades

Old 24th November 2002
  #52
'Jules, are you beta testing?'

I am a Sony beta tester - so are a few others here on GS.



Old 24th November 2002
  #53
Gear Addict
 
mixer's Avatar
 

Quote:
[i]
Also another issue lies with the fact that not one Digi rep could tell me how the additional processor in a Mac will be used now that it runs on OSX. Will it process plugins, render effects, allowing for backround processing? It would be nice to know.

King Long Fades [/B]
at the seminar that i went to all the digi reps said that using the dual processor function of os 10 would increase the prcessing power by about 30 percent...this is due to the way that os10 operates..from what i understood processors are not assignable they just share the processing power. and that the actuall programing in the operating system is not efficient enough to share more than that 30 percent but that apple is working on it and may improve those numbers....
Old 24th November 2002
  #54
Further, from the demo show I attended, PT 6.0 will be able to use the dual processor but in the beginning the alocation of usage will be automatic and not user definable.

Digi reps went on to say that later on when PT6 is up and running, folks wanting to dictate what processor is dedicated to what - will be able to.

But from the start RTAS plugs (and HTDM?) will do very well on dual machines thay said.

yuktyy
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