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IGS Photon don't work with Kush Electra 500-series 500 Series Dynamics
Old 8th March 2016
  #1
Here for the gear
IGS Photon don't work with Kush Electra 500-series

A few weeks ago I bought a IGS Photon compressor. When I put in the lunchbox, it didn't seem to work. It didn't compress and the output was very loud. After sending it to IGS for repairs they could only tell that the Photon was 100% OK when it arrived.
After getting it back I started to rearrange and use different slots with the same result. But when it ran on its own with no other modules attached (or together with just the tubecore), it started to work. And it worked until I attached the Kush Electra EQs.
By attaching one, the compressing is reduced by half, and when attaching the other, the compression almost disappears. Note that the makeup gain is still active.

Made this video to make it a little more clear. The same loop is fed thru the tubecore and the photon, but only the photon is sent back to DAW.
The tubecore is for reference to show that it's not affected by the electras and I get the same result if the tubecore was disconnected.

I also notised when powering up the rack without the Kush attached, the GR lights lit up for a second on the Photon. When the Kushes are in place, they don't.

IGS can only say that there's nothing wrong with the Photon. Kush Audio support have not replied and the dealer I got the Photon from don't have a clue what's wrong.

Anyone???
Old 8th March 2016
  #2
We recently had a customer with a FCS Pico 502, which worked fine until he added a Kush Electra to his lunchbox. As soon as he installed the Electra the Pico stopped compressing.

The customer sent us the Pico and it was 100% functional.
We thought it over and through some deductive analysis, we thought that perhaps the Electra made use of the API standard link connection, pin 6 on the EDAC connector.

The Pico has a zerohm jumper to connect the detector link function to pin 6 so that you can make 2- Pico 502 into a stereo bus comp. The customer was not going to use link, so I removed the jumper...

Low and behold, when he got the Pico back, both it and the Electra functioned.

Anyway, unsanctioned use of legacy pinout standards is fine until a module in the rack needs to use that connector in a valid way...

Kind of surprised that this hasn't been dealt with by now.

Hope that helps!
Roger Foote

Foote Control Systems
Old 8th March 2016
  #3
Here for the gear
Thanks a lot. I will run this by IGS. If anyone else have more ides, just keep 'em coming
Old 8th March 2016
  #4
Lives for gear
The same happened to me with an Aml 54f50. I believe it has something to do with the modules linking capabilities and the Electra prompting the units to link...or something like that. In other words you're not crazy... the Electra doesn't play nice with some modules.
Old 8th March 2016
  #5
Here for the gear
This just in from Kush:
Quote:
The electra sends its signal to an unused/unspec'd pin on the api edge connector, which allows it to feed the summing busses on radial racks. But some compressors use that same pin for sidechaining (the pitfalls of a lack of universal standards!).

On the electra, he can either snip or desolder one leg of the resistor named R38, and bend it back so that it is away from the pad and any other components. That will sever the connection between the electra and the sidechain of the photon. This will not change the functionality or performance of the electra in any way, it simply disables the feed from the eq to that unused/unspec'd pin on the edge connector.
Old 8th March 2016
  #6
Unspecified?
Pin 6 IS specified as 525 compressor stereo link.

See the attached pdf from API

Problem is that there are no unspecified pins, that makes it tough for folks that want to repurpose in the 500 edge connector...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf API_500_Spec.PDF (384.3 KB, 108 views)
Old 9th March 2016
  #7
Here for the gear
Hmmm.... The resistor R38 is connected to pin 11 on the Electra. This pin is not even used on the Photon. And there's no jumper on pin 6. If it needs to be disconnected on the Photon I'll have to cut the trace on the PCB.
Old 9th March 2016
  #8
The Kush users have reported that the Electra has a connection to Stereo Link (pin 6) but in order to remove that connection, you would have to cut the trace at pin 6.
An EQ should have no connection to that pin which is purposed for compressor linkage only...
There may be a way to defeat the pin 6 connection per slot which would be the proper way to implement this since you might have 2 stereo pairs in a typical lunchbox with 2 separate link connections.

The Radial company has apparently tied pin 6 on all slots together in their 500 racks, which in and of itself is not a problem, possibly wrong implementation but not deal breaking.
This has a negative effect on Pico compressors, IGS Photon compressors and AML compressors if someone uses a Kush Electra EQ in the same rack as the compressors. Probably many more!


Pin 6 is the compressor stereo link pin. Kush did something at pin 6 which makes stereo linking between 2 mono 500 compressors impossible using a Radial 500 chassis/rack and a Kush Electra EQ. We don’t know exactly what they did, but it appears that they must have tied pin 6 improperly to another connection. Pin 6 should be left floating on any 5oo modules EXCEPT compressors that are stereo link capable.

Maybe Radial can chime in and tell us exactly how pin 6 is used in the 500 racks, since this problem keeps coming up?

Last edited by RogerFoote; 10th March 2016 at 04:25 PM.. Reason: New information
Old 10th March 2016
  #9
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
The Kush users have reported that the Electra has a connection to Stereo Link (pin 6) but in order to remove that connection, you would have to cut the trace at pin 6.
An EQ should have no connection to that pin which is purposed for compressor linkage only...
There may be a way to defeat the pin 6 connection per slot which would be the proper way to implement this since you might have 2 stereo pairs in a typical lunchbox with 2 separate link connections.

The Radial company has apparently tied pin 6 on all slots together in their 500 racks, which in and of itself is not a problem, possibly wrong implementation but not deal breaking.
This has a negative effect on Pico compressors, IGS Photon compressors and AML compressors if someone uses a Kush Electra EQ in the same rack as the compressors. Probably many more!


Pin 6 is the compressor stereo link pin. Kush did something at pin 6 which makes stereo linking between 2 mono 500 compressors impossible using a Radial 500 chassis/rack and a Kush Electra EQ. We don’t know exactly what they did, but it appears that they must have tied pin 6 improperly to another connection. Pin 6 should be left floating on any 5oo modules EXCEPT compressors that are stereo link capable.

Maybe Radial can chime in and tell us exactly how pin 6 is used in the 500 racks, since this problem keeps coming up?
Thanks for the info. If I look at the PCB on the electra it seems both pin 4 and 6 goes to/ comes from the same resistor??
I use the API Lunchbox so there's not just problems with the Radial racks.
I much rather cut the trace on the Electras than the Photon, if it will have the same effect.
Attached Thumbnails
IGS Photon don't work with Kush Electra 500-series-img_0747.jpg  
Old 10th March 2016
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by uc.t View Post
Thanks for the info. If I look at the PCB on the electra it seems both pin 4 and 6 goes to/ comes from the same resistor??
I use the API Lunchbox so there's not just problems with the Radial racks.
I much rather cut the trace on the Electras than the Photon, if it will have the same effect.
Thanks for that!
I thought you were using a Radial, moot point though after thinking more on it because an EQ should not connect to pin 6 at all. I think a lot of the racks have pin 6 tied, but my favorite is the Purple Sweet 10 which has patching capability for that pin 6 connection. Even then they call it "Pin 6: Output B – (OPT OUT 1/4" Ring) So much for standards.

The API rack must have all pin 6s tied, as others do, so all it takes is a mis-applied connection to pin 6 to bring down all the compressors that have a pin 6 connection.

I assume that the picture you posted is the underside.
That being the case, if so, is that the - (negative polarity) output connects to pin 6
Pin 4 is the - (negative polarity)... Why would that be connected to pin 6?

So, you should be able to cut the trace at pin 6 on the EQ just above the pin 6 "finger".
Then also check the top side and make sure no other traces connect to pin 6
Old 11th March 2016
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Vintageidiot's Avatar
Don't cut anything, send it back and tell them to fix the problem....
Old 11th March 2016
  #12
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintageidiot View Post
Don't cut anything, send it back and tell them to fix the problem....
I see your point. I bought the electras used so I don't have a local dealar to talk to. And I'm not so keen about shipping them half around the world for a considerable amount if I can fix it at home for free in five minutes.

I've sent an e-mail to Kush support asking them to explain what exactly Electra uses pin 6 for, and if it's safe to cut this trace regarding "normal" use.

And a very special thanks to RogerFoote for taking the time and sharing your thoughts with me!
Old 12th March 2016
  #13
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
I think a lot of the racks have pin 6 tied, but my favorite is the Purple Sweet 10 which has patching capability for that pin 6 connection. Even then they call it "Pin 6: Output B – (OPT OUT 1/4" Ring) So much for standards.
Message from Kush
Quote:
Yes, it's ok to cut the trace just before pin 6, which is a mirror of pin 4 (- output). FYI Purple racks (and a few others) use that for their second output, which is why we've got it mirrored.

It's odd to me that the Electra is affecting a unit that's not directly adjacent, IME that's the only time pin 6 has ever been an issue.
Old 12th March 2016
  #14
Here for the gear
I've cut the trace to pin 6 on the Electras and now it all works great! Thanks again for your support!
Old 12th March 2016
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by uc.t View Post
It's odd to me that the Electra is affecting a unit that's not directly adjacent, IME that's the only time pin 6 has ever been an issue.


I wish that were true!
I have seen this problem several times where it was proven out to be the Electra, and a couple more times that we lost sales because of this issue and didn't know about the pin 6 problem... I mean all the gear makers consult the wiring standards, right?

Btw, this abandonment of wiring standards is one of the top reasons we don't build 500 gear for sale except on special order.

IME that's the only time pin 6 has ever been an issue.
Old 16th March 2016
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Curiously; has anyone ever tried / had issues with a CAPI vp28 and Kush Electra playing nicely together?

I had a session tonight where that appeared to be the case. I ended up just pulling the Kush from the signal chain as I didn't have a lot of time to troubleshoot...but recalled reading this thread and wondered if the odd pin out issues extended to pre's as well.

Anyone?
Old 16th March 2016
  #17
Gear Nut
I have 2 Kush electra's in my Radial Workhorse in slots 9 and 10. Slots 1 and 2 I have Elysia Xpressor, Slots 3 and 4 I have Lindell 77x-500, slots 5 and 6 I have DBX 560A, slots 7 and 8 I have tonelux tx5c. I have no issues with any of my compressors and the Electras.
Old 16th March 2016
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovin2 View Post
I have 2 Kush electra's in my Radial Workhorse in slots 9 and 10. Slots 1 and 2 I have Elysia Xpressor, Slots 3 and 4 I have Lindell 77x-500, slots 5 and 6 I have DBX 560A, slots 7 and 8 I have tonelux tx5c. I have no issues with any of my compressors and the Electras.
If the Radial Workhorse has any sequential slots that have pin 6 tied, try installing the Electra in the slot next to any comp you have that supports pin 6 stereo link...

Last edited by RogerFoote; 16th March 2016 at 03:19 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 16th March 2016
  #19
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
If the Radial Workhorse has any sequential slots that have pin 6 tied, try installing the Electra in the slot next to any comp you have that supports pin 6 stereo link...
Mr. Foote, I would not DARE imply that what you stated earlier was not true. My apologies to you and the OP if that is how I came across.
Old 16th March 2016
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovin2 View Post
Mr. Foote, I would not DARE imply that what you stated earlier was not true. My apologies to you and the OP if that is how I came across.
Not what I meant at all, just really would appreciate your input with loading a comp right next to the Electra. I am interested in this because I have done more customer support that relates to repurposing pin 6 in racks and modules than any other issue, period.

Of course, not all racks have a normalled connection at pin 6, and in that case the "problem" will not show up at all. My Bae rack has no connections at pin 6 so if I wanted to link 2 channels, I would have to solder a wire between the two slots that I wanted linked.

Questions;
Do any of your comps support stereo link?
Do you have any of them linked?

Best
Roger
Old 16th March 2016
  #21
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerFoote View Post
Not what I meant at all, just really would appreciate your input with loading a comp right next to the Electra. I am interested in this because I have done more customer support that relates to repurposing pin 6 in racks and modules than any other issue, period.

Of course, not all racks have a normalled connection at pin 6, and in that case the "problem" will not show up at all. My Bae rack has no connections at pin 6 so if I wanted to link 2 channels, I would have to solder a wire between the two slots that I wanted linked.

Questions;
Do any of your comps support stereo link?
Do you have any of them linked?

Best
Roger
Whew, ok. Because you are the man and I really love your compressors. I am awaiting the day I get my hands on a P3S.

To address the issue at hand, in looking at the video of the OP it appears he is using an API 8 slot lunchbox. Per API, "by default all compressors are linked together using wire jumpers on the circuit board assembly." To disable that "feature" you must remove the jumpers that are on the circuit board. If the OP removes his modules from his chassis and looks at the circuit board, he would see jumpers labeled R21 thru R27. In his particular case, I suspect had he removed the jumpers labeled R21 and R22 (which linked slot 1 to slot 2 (R21) and slot 2 to slot 3 (R22) he would have broken the signal feed going from the Electras to his compressors and would not have had to do anything to the Electras (not discounting the fact that the Electras have a non standard pinout configuration in the first place). I am not having the same issue as the OP because all of my Racks are Radial Workhorse 10 slot racks. Those have an external toggle switch on the back of the unit that engages/disengages the stereo compressor link feature. With that being said, the Radial also ONLY engages the stereo link to the directly connected slot in pairs (1 - 2, 3 - 4, 5 - 6, etc). So, if I had an Electra in slot 1, a stereo link compressor in slot 2 and a stereo link compressor in slot 3, the only impacted compressor would be the one in slot 2. And that compressor would only be impacted if I had the stereo link switch in the back of the Radial Workhorse chassis "engaged".
Old 16th March 2016
  #22
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by dovin2 View Post
the OP it appears he is using an API 8 slot lunchbox. Per API, "by default all compressors are linked together using wire jumpers on the circuit board assembly." To disable that "feature" you must remove the jumpers that are on the circuit board.
Yes you are right. There are jumpers inside labeled "comp link". Not the removeable ones so they had to be cut too. I was looking for this before I created this thread, but was expecting jumper switches so I missed it totally

Well, it works now so no big deal.
Old 12th April 2016
  #23
Gear Head
 

On the radial Workhorses pin 11 from each slot go to 100 ohm resistors then to the mix modules where they are mixed at virtual earth with the DB25 mix input. To operate properly a 4.7K resistor has to be in the module in series with this pin.

Pin 6 of each slot goes to a switch to link it to the next slot in pairs. 1-2. 3-4, 5-6 and 7-8. Unless stereo pairing is needed these link switches must be left in the OFF position.
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