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Pro Tools HD....Really worth it?
Old 30th January 2007
  #91
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drewrevolution's Avatar
 

so if i'm not getting HD, and apparently the 002r are crap (based on the slam henchman just used) -- and i haven't heard many good things about the control 24, which can be used as LE too


then what interface should i be looking at to use PT with?
Old 30th January 2007
  #92
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
well i was about to ask if a 002R was a good idea to use w/ some great mic pres, but henchman just made it seem like a slam...
If you're going for PT's LE, you'll need some kind of interface, so an OO2R woul do fine. If you don'y need to go with LE, then there are alot better choices out there.

The RME stuff is great, and has really low latency.
I've heard really good things about the Apogee Symphony set-up as well.
Both are way better than the Digi offerings.

With Digi your only option is the 002 set-up.
Old 30th January 2007
  #93
Gear Maniac
 

MIX vs HD:

I just made the jump from a MIX+++ to an HD2 accel with lynx aurora's for conversion, I'm very happy with it. Fired it up today on it's maiden voyage today; tracked drums, bass, vox and piano. Sounded great, 24 channels wide, smooth as silk.

I would not reccomend going the MIX route as you will be locking yourself into an outdated technology.

From a business standpoint it was a no brainer for me, the work the HD rig will generate will cover the cost.

If your business is new/growing and you can afford it, I'd say go for it. If you are in a smaller market it will help differentiate you from the competition. If you are in a larger market and are establishing yourself it's almost a neccesity.


joel
Old 30th January 2007
  #94
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drewrevolution's Avatar
 

that's very true about HD.


one thing i need to figure out if i were to get that would be PCI or PCI-e because i'm gonna buy a G5


any battles on those?



also, i just added the link to the page for my studio. if you listen to "doubt fear desolation" you can hear this old chain i had. i was very pleased on the result considering what i had to work with.

sm57 on snare and toms, beta 52 on kick, e609 on guitar, sm58 on vocals -- old mackie board pres -- presonus firepod -- cubase (pc)

since then i've upgraded to the motu2408, but feel free to critique the recording!

-drew
Old 30th January 2007
  #95
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
that's very true about HD.


one thing i need to figure out if i were to get that would be PCI or PCI-e because i'm gonna buy a G5


any battles on those?



also, i just added the link to the page for my studio. if you listen to "doubt fear desolation" you can hear this old chain i had. i was very pleased on the result considering what i had to work with.

sm57 on snare and toms, beta 52 on kick, e609 on guitar, sm58 on vocals -- old mackie board pres -- presonus firepod -- cubase (pc)

since then i've upgraded to the motu2408, but feel free to critique the recording!

-drew
I think you'd wanna go PCI-E.
Old 30th January 2007
  #96
Gear Maniac
 

drew,

i'd get the pci-e so you can eventually move on computer wise. If you can afford it, get the mac-pro, definetly worth it.

You might be able to pick up a MIX+ system for cheap get a hardware exhange and beat the prices.

I agree with henchman, don't understimate plug-in prices.

joel
Old 30th January 2007
  #97
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drewrevolution's Avatar
 

i did research and apparently pci-e is about 118% faster than pci slots, but then i actually found a dude on here that is intentionally NOT buying pci-e so i PMed him about his reasoning. haven't heard back yet.
Old 30th January 2007
  #98
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drewrevolution's Avatar
 

can't i get a G5 w/ pci-e slots?
Old 30th January 2007
  #99
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
If you're going for PT's LE, you'll need some kind of interface, so an OO2R woul do fine. If you don'y need to go with LE, then there are alot better choices out there.

The RME stuff is great, and has really low latency.
I've heard really good things about the Apogee Symphony set-up as well.
Both are way better than the Digi offerings.

With Digi your only option is the 002 set-up.
I recommend the RME FF800. I use the Maudio Lightbridge with 2 RME FF800's via Lightpipe and an Apogee Rosetta 200 via SPDIF. I use total mix to get zero latency recording for the RME's. I also use 2 UAD Cards, and a Liquid Mix. I recently purchased a UA LA2A and an 1176, which made a huge difference. I like my LA610, but like to use my Great River pre as well. I find these combinations to work very well. I have been very successful achieving excellent results with this setup in Logic as well as Protools LE. I too am considering making the plunge into an HD3 with 2 192's. I have to admit that I have considered going the Symphony route as well. I had the 002R a while back, but never used it for more than a big dongle, as the converters are not very good.
Old 30th January 2007
  #100
Gear Maniac
 

barry/drew,

my final piece of possibly worthless advice is to not go with 192's (if you upgrade). I a/b'edthe aurora's with the 192 and preffered them. The main advantage is that the lynx or apogees or lavry's (pricey) will definetly hold their resale a little better and will be compatible with other systems or used natively. The 192's though very nice sounding are locked into digi.

good night,

joel
Old 30th January 2007
  #101
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

I've read there are latency issues with Apogee converters with HD, what about the other's you mentioned?
Old 30th January 2007
  #102
Gear Maniac
 

I'm going to double my post count on this one thread :(

I don't know about the apogees, but the lynx work properly (so far), they show up and behave exactly like 192's with the proper dealy compensation. I believe the apogee's are supposed to work the same way.

okay, I'm really going to sleep now !

joel
Old 30th January 2007
  #103
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

Good night.
Old 30th January 2007
  #104
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I am currently running PT Mix4 with AD8000's- 32 in, 32 out. I have am booked quite full these days and I while I have had a few grumbles about not having HD, I am not aware of any people who passed on the studio for not having HD. There is one engineer who said he would might be able to bring more work to my place if I had it... but that is a guarantee in the music business.

I have toyed with making the upgrade but for the processing power that I have I am never wanting. Not sure how many plugs you people use, but a Mix system with 3 mix farm cards has quite a bit of room. I did recently have a few sessions here from a big producer that had 80 tracks or so, that took a bit of wrangling. I think the point is, how much work am I losing and how much more would I gain if I had HD?

I have done the math and it doesn't make sense for me. There is talk of a big record to be done here later this year that the artist would like to record at 96k. If that happens and only then, will I plop the money down. I hate spending money on this crap.

josh kessler
www.bushwickstudio.com
Old 30th January 2007
  #105
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundeq View Post
Working with PT HD is just... easy... no time dicking around setting crap up, and figuring out latency stuff....
Here's a quote from the computer forum:

"Hi,
I'm currently mixing a song (protools hd 7.2.1, g5 dual 2.66 intel) and I need to program some midi parts.. With Delay Compensation turned on, my midi tracks are playing back early. Anyone know how to deal with this WITHOUT shutting off Delay Compensation or is that the only solution?"

This would qualify as "dicking around setting crap up and figuring out latency stuff", something I don't have to deal with in DP, since audio is ADC'd and midi lines up automatically.

One more thing to ponder: How many PCI slots will a HD system fill? This is a consideration for Mac users, something they don't think about till they run out. My motu PCI card will do 96 channels of i/o on one slot. That's more than I'll ever need, and it leaves me with 2 open slots for other stuff.

Just a couple more reasons for my signature... (and if you must know who I am, google 'duncan' and 'tucson' and you'll find me.)
Old 30th January 2007
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushwick View Post
I am currently running PT Mix4 with AD8000's- 32 in, 32 out. I have am booked quite full these days and I while I have had a few grumbles about not having HD, I am not aware of any people who passed on the studio for not having HD. There is one engineer who said he would might be able to bring more work to my place if I had it... but that is a guarantee in the music business.

I have toyed with making the upgrade but for the processing power that I have I am never wanting. Not sure how many plugs you people use, but a Mix system with 3 mix farm cards has quite a bit of room. I did recently have a few sessions here from a big producer that had 80 tracks or so, that took a bit of wrangling. I think the point is, how much work am I losing and how much more would I gain if I had HD?

I have done the math and it doesn't make sense for me. There is talk of a big record to be done here later this year that the artist would like to record at 96k. If that happens and only then, will I plop the money down. I hate spending money on this crap.

josh kessler
www.bushwickstudio.com
Even then it might be cheaper to rent.

You'd probably never know if people passed. People shop by word of mouth and the web, so in both cases, they'd know before talking to you that you didn't have HD. If that was an issue, they'd book somehwere else.

With 32 I/O, you're mixing on a console, so that's another reason you'll find it easier to get by with TDM instead of HD. I stayed with TDM until 11 months ago and part of my reason for upgrading was becuase I wanted a new Mac and after my last upgrade, decided to never upgrage just one component again.

Since I track to tape, use Radar for converters and mix through a console, HD makes next to no difference, but is better for marketing and easier for session compatibility.
Old 30th January 2007
  #107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I believe if Mutt Lange called and said I need to track a band next week, Michael would not have a problem doing that.
He may primarily mix, but it doesn't mean he stops getting calls for tracking.
I can't speak for him, but his website list only mix credits going back to 1979. AllMusic.com shows only mixing credits goign back to the mid 80's except for albums that he remixed in the past 15 years that he originally tracked in the 80's.
Old 30th January 2007
  #108
Gear Maniac
 

Joshh/Mike et al,

I was busy with my Mix+++ system and was getting good sounds, I could run plenty of plug-in's and I was mixing through the console without any trouble. I also do scoring work and my old trusty g4 wasn't able to handle some of the larger soft-synths such as BFD or others, I kinda wanted to skip the G5 which meant pci-e and HD.

In terms of getting work, in September I had to turn down a low-pay/prestige mixing gig because I couldn't do 88.2. Two weeks ago, I had 3 prospective clients who checked out our space, wanted to work and then asked "do you have HD ?" I had to tell them it was on it's way, and missed the gigs because of deadlines. One was a mixing a rock band and two were tracking for singer-songwriters. All three were indpendent artists active in their respective scenes. So far I've been entirely word of mouth.

On the plus side, I ran into a producer friend, apprised him of the upgrade and he's bringing in a project this week. "Now that you have the HD I can bring in this work".

Believe me, I agonized over dropping the money on the rig, there are SO many things, gear and non-gear related it would probably be better spent on (vacation anyone ?) but I'm confident I can book one extra day a month with the HD which will cover the equipment lease, two extra days I'd be happy. In terms of the overhead it's about the same as my average electric bill.

okay, that's enough rationalization for now.

joel

Last edited by jhamburg; 30th January 2007 at 03:38 PM.. Reason: poor sentence structure
Old 30th January 2007
  #109
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
They always drop to 1/10th their value within 3-4 years. Stay with the last generation always, and always save a lot of money.
That's not quite true...HD systems have been on the market for 5 years now and even the older non-Accel systems haven't dropped to anywhere close to 1/10th of their original value. Plus, if you do decide that, for business reasons, you want to say with current systems, Digidesign does offer a tradein program...sometimes you're better off selling the stuff on eBay, sometimes not, but either way it holds its value better than most digital systems.

Quote:
Personally, I think the jump between mix systems and HD is a much smaller jump than upgrades in the past have been.
That depends entirely on how you use it. If you mix through a console using converters other than Digidesign's with the Mix system then sure, I'd agree. If you mix in the box I disagree, and if you take advantage of the software features I'd disagree as well.

Quote:
can't i get a G5 w/ pci-e slots?
Only the last generation G5's (with the dual-core processors) had PCIe slots.

-Duardo
Old 30th January 2007
  #110
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drewrevolution's Avatar
 

thanks for the help on the pci-e slots.

i'm def. gonna try to get a g5 w/ those in it
Old 30th January 2007
  #111
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushwick View Post

I have done the math and it doesn't make sense for me. There is talk of a big record to be done here later this year that the artist would like to record at 96k. If that happens and only then, will I plop the money down. I hate spending money on this crap.

www.bushwickstudio.com
I am not sure what the situation is in NYC, but in LA its really easy to rent a PT HD rig. One cool thing about renting in the rig is that you can bill it to the client.

Its a strange thing. If you have a room that is something like $700/day. It seems a lot easier to get the client to pony up a couple hundred extra for some cool rental gear (PT or outboard) than for the client to be OK with you raising your rates a couple hundred a day because you now have this better gear.
Old 30th January 2007
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
thanks for the help on the pci-e slots.

i'm def. gonna try to get a g5 w/ those in it
I would suggest not getting a PCI-e system. From what I know, it seems like there would be no gain in performance from a PCI-e system, and the loss would be that you can't expand past 3 cards. The only offerings for 3+ card systems from Digidesign right now is only for PCI cards, and it works in both PCI-e and PCI G5's. For me, it was a safer bet to go with PCI instead of PCI-e.

Just a little FYI.
Old 30th January 2007
  #113
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Mozart's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
yes, i run my studio as a business.

i have just been reading up and examining the different types of systems to upgrade to and of course PT HD is the most well known and used so i'm thinking it's gotta be a smart idea to jump to it.

right now i use cubase and i've learned it pretty well, but i'm willing to jump to PT HD if it's going to make my sound tenfold better.

does PT HD increase the quality of your music w/ their core cards? digidesign says yes. what do you guys think.

thanks!
I think Cibase sounds better on Digi HD hardware; Track the same thing with cubase and Pro tools, and then iimport cubase files into pro tools and you will see what I'm saying.
I'm using PT hd 3 Accell regulary, but think to switch tracking to cubase, adn mixing into PT.
What do I know?!?!
Old 30th January 2007
  #114
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Quote:
right now i use cubase and i've learned it pretty well, but i'm willing to jump to PT HD if it's going to make my sound tenfold better.

does PT HD increase the quality of your music w/ their core cards? digidesign says yes. what do you guys think.
I think your sound will be "tenfold better" if you THINK it's tenfold better. Other than that I cna't imagine that happening simply by changing daws.

A daw by itself (nor a particular set of plugins) doesn't "increase the quality of your music". Especially not tenfold.

I'm going for like... 5% maybe? ... by upgrading DA converters that I use to monitor through.
Old 30th January 2007
  #115
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Mozart's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think your sound will be "tenfold better" if you THINK it's tenfold better. Other than that I cna't imagine that happening simply by changing daws.

A daw by itself (nor a particular set of plugins) doesn't "increase the quality of your music". Especially not tenfold.

I'm going for like... 5% maybe? ... by upgrading DA converters that I use to monitor through.
Calculation engine maybe???
But difference was very hearable!
Old 30th January 2007
  #116
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LoopQuantum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew.sawicki View Post
I would suggest not getting a PCI-e system. From what I know, it seems like there would be no gain in performance from a PCI-e system, and the loss would be that you can't expand past 3 cards. The only offerings for 3+ card systems from Digidesign right now is only for PCI cards, and it works in both PCI-e and PCI G5's. For me, it was a safer bet to go with PCI instead of PCI-e.

Just a little FYI.

FYI... The CORE card in a PCI-E system is Accel Capable. The Core card of a PCI-X system is not. This is a pretty big deal if someone wants to start out small with an HD1 and build up, yet would immediately benefit from any of the Accel-only plugins (ReVibe, Impact, etc.) . Sure, there isn't a raw DSP difference between the two cards, but the plugin compliancy alone is a cool thing.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken in assuming a PCI-X system will work in a PCI-E machine....you have looked at the slots, right?

I'm glad your system is working, and that it was a safe bet for you.
Old 30th January 2007
  #117
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DaveC's Avatar
 

I'm still on PT-MixCube (mix3), and still satisfied with it.
John Sonneveld (a great engineer from Holland with whom I worked for several years) used DSP-Farmcards for years, on OS8 (in 2003!) even when PT-HD was on the market for a long time. He didn't want to take the plunge either, back then.
I think, it's all up to your personal needs.
Don't buy a system like that to impress your clients.
I've seen people scoring hits made with Fruity-Loops, Cubase, Magix, etc..
So if you have a full-blown HD32 rig, on an Octo-core CPU with 128GB-RAM, and 64TB of HD-space, on OS-"Sabertooth", then what?
If I can make music with a simple but stable cpu, with OS-"Kitten",
I'd be happy.
Just make sure you get the best possible converters that are out there; that's your source.

Good luck
Old 30th January 2007
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoopQuantum View Post
FYI... The CORE card in a PCI-E system is Accel Capable. The Core card of a PCI-X system is not. This is a pretty big deal if someone wants to start out small with an HD1 and build up, yet would immediately benefit from any of the Accel-only plugins (ReVibe, Impact, etc.) . Sure, there isn't a raw DSP difference between the two cards, but the plugin compliancy alone is a cool thing.

Also, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken in assuming a PCI-X system will work in a PCI-E machine....you have looked at the slots, right?

I'm glad your system is working, and that it was a safe bet for you.
Um... you just schooled me.

I just know the reason I picked the cards I did, and I somewhat got the idea of why I did out there... I just kinda goofed along the way.

I think it's still a good point though, right?
Old 31st January 2007
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I can't think of any "big name" person on this forum who only mixes.
If people can afford your day rate for tracking or mixing, you take the gig.

But whether I tracked it or mixed it, I still use I use Pro Tools.

I can track in my own room, with a variety of pres from Neve to Tonelux to Aphex to Pacifica or I can go to my favorite room in Santa Barbara at Sound Design and track on the ICON with the 32 channels of 1073's in the wall. It matters not to me.

So, IF you were referring to me in your post, you should get your facts straight first before stepping up to dispense your "sage" advice.

Tony,

Glad to hear you have access to 1073s for tracking. You obviously know what to choose to get the job done.

Our friend here looking to buy PT HD, on the other hand, said he is using a Mackie.

So, if he blows his wad of cash on that then he may end up having to use his Mackie pres for tracking. No matter how good PT HD may sound to his clients, when they get to their car and hear what the end result of those Mackie pres sound like they will do nothing but curse him.

Man, I certainly meant no offense to you and I wasn't really referring to you concerning engineers that mostly mix.

I saw your discography and have the utmost respect for you! You are obviously great at what you do, or you would not be in your position.

But alot of these newbies looking to JUMP into HD haven't a clue about all the other things that are so important in acheiving great results in this game.

Mackie pres, sub par mics, sub par converters, sheetrock closets to track in = doodoo in, doodoo out --- PT HD will NOT save the day in this situation.

BTW, "sage" stands for spice.
Old 31st January 2007
  #120
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I believe if Mutt Lange called and said I need to track a band next week, Michael would not have a problem doing that.
He may primarily mix, but it doesn't mean he stops getting calls for tracking.
uuh, actually Mike's right, i only mix...even if Mutt called...and the last time I got a call to record was when I recorded James Brown many years ago and that was because the only way I could get to mix him was by recording him. Michael
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