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Pro Tools HD....Really worth it?
Old 29th January 2007
  #31
Gear Addict
 

Thanks. I was probably way off with the spelling. Great converter.
Old 29th January 2007
  #32
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew.sawicki View Post
You can easily get an HD rig for just a bit more than a MIX rig, and you'll be spending your money on a much better rig. .
I see 16 IO mix systems for a bit over $2000. Turn Key systems with plugs etc.

I would love to get into a new 16 I/O HD rig for a little over 2k.
Old 29th January 2007
  #33
Registered User
 

sounds like you would be better off upgrading your current mic's and hardware and sticking with Cubase / what you know. Are you on C4 or SX3.11?
Old 29th January 2007
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
Jim Roberts's Avatar
I have never once regretted selling the tape machines (OK, NOT a very GS-like move) and trading my Mix++++ into an HD system. It has paid for itself many times over, provided a fairly rock-solid recording and editing device for dozens of projects, and continues to impress clients (at least that care about such things) with minimal maintenance costs.

My 2 cents.....
Old 29th January 2007
  #35
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john caldwell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by erick21 View Post
No hardware is going to increase the quality of your music. Only a musician can do that.
Eric is correct in a pure sense, but I'll add that the HD platform has made my music better by letting me spend less time than I used to fiddling with the platform - more time on the creative process than in the past.

My work sounds better in the HD platform than it did in the Mix platform, FWIW.

I'd would buy the HD3 Accel system again, but I can't claim that I've worked on the contemporary competetive systems.

John-
Old 29th January 2007
  #36
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by walth View Post
I would say to get PT HD if you're going to be recording alot of tracks and if you need alot of plug-ins. Pro Tools LE systems can only handle 32 channels of audio. As far as plug-ins go everything is running on your computers processor instead of a HD card (core card, mix card. I forget the name for it). YOu can get around this by using products from focusrite and universal audio. They make PCI cards that will give your daw more processing power.

If you do use PT HD get Apogee converters. I've compared digidesign and apogee converters and they really do make a big difference. I even compared a converter with the name avery on it. I forget who makes it but it was better than the 192I/O.
I have 2 UAD cards and the Liquid Mix, as well as Waves SSL Plugs. I never come close to maxing out my system. I currently use a RME FF800 through a Lightbridge in to Protool's Mpowered. Prior to that, I was using my FF800 via 002R lightpipe. I also have the Music Production Toolkit, which give me 48 tracks, of which I never use. I would love to not have to use my total mix software for zero latency recording, but if that’s all I'm going to get going No Latency Recording and ADC, how is it worth it to spend almost 6k. I can get a used 192io for about 2100.00 and a used HD1 for about 3,200.00. Those are the typical prices on EBay. I am a gearslut bye the way.
Old 29th January 2007
  #37
PDC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus View Post
Samplitude to me is much more fun than PT.

Even though many of the features do not work correctly, or do not work at higher sample rates?

I WANTED it to be the cat's meow VERY MUCH. I talked to several golden ears end engineers like Fred Forsell about Sequoia. They love it. I went to the forum and looked at all of the stuff that didn't work. Maybe they will fix it.
Old 29th January 2007
  #38
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew.sawicki View Post
I couldn't disagree more. MIX is nothing but crap compared to HD, and I wouldn't invest any money into it. You can easily get an HD rig for just a bit more than a MIX rig, and you'll be spending your money on a much better rig. You will probably spend 5k-6k on a mix rig after you buy the computer and interfaces, and then what? You've got 888's that sound horrible comparatively, lackluster plugins compared to today's, no support, and a much less powerful system.

Remember that MIX Core card's are less than 1/4 of the power of an Accell card, are limited to 64 tracks, no delay compensation... I could go on...

I got my HD 3 Accell rig for about 12k new and the plugins alone were the reason for going with 3. You could get one card or two and be fine. Now I need more cards cause 3 aren't enough... where would he go after he maxed out his rig? Sell it all for less than half of his original investment and buy HD? Sounds like a step in the wrong direction to me.




An HD rig on ebay doesn't cost much anymore, but it's not too bad to buy one new.

I still don't think you should get HD though. Doesn't sound like you really have the need for one.


Yes, and HD and its' "new and improved" plugins are CRAP compared to a top end analog console outfitted with top notch outboard. Have you had a chance to sit behind one yet and mix your music ? If not, then you're just talking the DAW talk.

I tested out an HD rig at my studio (loaded with plugs) and it didn't live up to the "hype" IMO. The differences between HD and Mix when you have a good analog console are not so great.

That's why I kept my Mix system, stepped up to a Trident 80 (recapped), and spent the rest on outboard, converters, 2" machine, mics, and Owens 703.

The investment was several times the cost of a slutty HD rig, but worth every penny IMO!

Once again, did major budget productions really get sonically better in the last 7 years since HD ? Actually, I think it got even worse!! Some truly great sounding stuff was done on Mix systems in the mid to late 90s. Enough PROOF for me that with some great mics, pres, outboard, and a top end console the PT Mix DAW is good enough --- after all, it's only a DAW !!
Old 29th January 2007
  #39
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew.sawicki View Post
I couldn't disagree more. MIX is nothing but crap compared to HD, and I wouldn't invest any money into it. You can easily get an HD rig for just a bit more than a MIX rig, and you'll be spending your money on a much better rig. You will probably spend 5k-6k on a mix rig after you buy the computer and interfaces, and then what? You've got 888's that sound horrible comparatively, lackluster plugins compared to today's, no support, and a much less powerful system.

Remember that MIX Core card's are less than 1/4 of the power of an Accell card, are limited to 64 tracks, no delay compensation... I could go on...

I got my HD 3 Accell rig for about 12k new and the plugins alone were the reason for going with 3. You could get one card or two and be fine. Now I need more cards cause 3 aren't enough... where would he go after he maxed out his rig? Sell it all for less than half of his original investment and buy HD? Sounds like a step in the wrong direction to me.

An HD rig on ebay doesn't cost much anymore, but it's not too bad to buy one new.

I still don't think you should get HD though. Doesn't sound like you really have the need for one.
And I am sure you were saying the same thing about Protools TDM (or whatever the previous state of the art "get more of your money" upgrade was called) when the Mix systems became standard. It's only natural we all have to make self-justifications and rationalizations to give one's current situation more weight and solidity in one's mind. ;-)

I personally think you can make great music in pretty much any "modernesque" DAW. The user is the only variable. Is the music any better today then it was 10 years ago. I think not.
Old 29th January 2007
  #40
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Greg Wells's Avatar
I have an analog console and always split it out for a mix. The difference between my old Mix system and new HD system, recording at 96k with a Big Ben, is large.
Old 29th January 2007
  #41
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I don't disagree with any of the statements against the limitations or opposition of HD, I'm just saying that TDM is a horrible way to go... as far as purchasing now goes.

I completely understand counter arguments the HD situation, everyone has their own way of working, and their own preferences as far as equipment goes. My budget and clients would not allow me to go full analog, and TDM would certainly not afford me the comforts that HD allows me. TDM was great for things like Lexiverb, but in the long run I need more tracks and more processing power. Analog would be great, but I can't afford a console at the prices I run.

I'm not saying that you can get an HD rig for as little as a TDM rig, but a $2,000 TDM system is not something I would want to work on. The last TDM rig I was on was bugged out and I would have to spend vast amounts of time on arranging the plugs on the cards just to get sessions to open. I'm not saying that TDM wasn't good for it's time, I absolutely loved it at the time, but now I love HD, and I couldn't think of going back, YMMV.

I do hope all of you understand that I'm not trying to start a methodology debate, I was merely trying to say that I think a TDM system was step in the wrong direction. I whole heartedly believe that is more than one way to skin a cat, persay...

I still say that I think this would be a bad investment for the original poster, it just seems like this is not the thing you need to be buying at this point.
Old 29th January 2007
  #42
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barryjohns's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by barryjohns View Post
If there is no sonic difference between HD and LE, why do I read so many post on this site that say different. I'm not arguing, just curious. From what I can tell reading this post I am surmising that:

A 002R with the Black Lion Mod will get similar results as a 192? Or maybe they are implying buying an Apogee Level converter and go into LE via Lightpipe?

The sonic difference between HD plugs and LE plugs are minimal?

Other than latency issues, why would anyone buy an HD? ADC alone?

With the power of today’s computers, I can run natively as many plugs as I would ever need.

I'm playing devils advocate for the most part. I've got myself convinced that I want/need HD. All I do is my own stuff in my personal Project Studio, but I'm looking to gain stellar results. I've got nice mics and nice pre's already.

What do I do?
Ok, for orgional poster, but what about a guy in my shoes?
Old 29th January 2007
  #43
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Buy an HD 3 Accel...

I would be very leery of anyone giving you advice without giving their name.
Most of the people who are telling you not to get an HD or to get a used mix system are hiding in the shadows and
can't/don't feel like they are strong enough to back up their voices with their real names. BE AFRAID.

Personally, I would tell you NOT to buy mix system. Get an HD!
1. There is no Tech support for a mix system and for the price you can do much, much better.
2. Native power is not quite there yet. Much more useable power run on a HD 3 accel.
3. It sounds better (48 bit fixed point).
4. It's a commercial draw to your studio.
5. The Pro Tools format is the modern 2 inch tape, it's everywhere.
Old 29th January 2007
  #44
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by barryjohns View Post
Ok, for orgional poster, but what about a guy in my shoes?
As I have said earlier, my preference is more about how it feels than how it sounds. In your shoes, you might want to put your money elsewhere

there are workarounds for latency, track count, no sends when tracking and so on.

Paying clients are not interested in workarounds or delays, which is why I love my HD. It takes the pressure off. To me, it "works" better. If it sounds better, I haven't noticed.

Mics, preamps, outboard, converters will all give a bigger boost to your sonic bottom line than HD vs LE. I don't know your musical style but, just from looking at your list, I would freeze my spending on computer crap and buy front end gear.
Old 29th January 2007
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
Dude,

Don't WASTE your money on PT HD !! Do you really have enough business to justify a $10,000 plus investment that will be worth $1000 in 2 years -- IF you are lucky ???

DO yourself a favor and pick up a used PT Mix system on Ebay and spend most of your money on pres and outboard that will REALLY make a difference in your overall results. You can get a Mix core card these days for $700 on Ebay, and slut it out with 5 more mix cards for a mere $2000 extra.

Remember, a 6 card mix system was $25,000 not too long ago and MANY top notch records were produced on them.

You have to ask yourself : do records today done on PT HD really sound any better than records done on PT Mix 5-8 years ago ??
Your points would be great if hey were factually based. An HD system is not going to be worth only $1k in two years.

I completely agree that it will suffer a tremedous loss in value, but you're just making up numbers.

For someone working at home, they should pick whatever they feel compfortable with. For someone hoping to have a high traffic place, if you don't have HD, you're cutting yourself out of a lot of work.

The quesiton is what level are you working at and do you hope to be working at in the next 12-18 months. There are mastering houses that charge $400/hr. That's more than and HD 2 system with a computer per week. $20k is not a lot of money in the big picture of proaudio in a major market. It is if you're not in that situation.
Old 29th January 2007
  #46
Gear Addict
 
drewrevolution's Avatar
 

Thanks so much to everyone giving their opinions on this matter.

Right now I'm recording bands every day of every week, other than Sun and Mon. so I'm definitely in a high traffic area and I hope to make it even higher traffic for myself.

I think I've decided to do basically both of what was suggested (1. Get HD / 2. Get better pre's & converters)

Right now I have...

Motu 2408 MKIII
Older Mackie Board (NOT Onyx)

I'm going to jump from that to this...

Pro Tools HD1
Digidesign 96 I/O
Digidesign DigiPre

I just want to upgrade ALL my pres first (8 channels), otherwise I would get some dual channel Avalons or something, which I will do in the future.

I think this will be a huge step in the sonic difference that I can get in my studio and help my overall studio progress as a business.

Thanks!
Old 29th January 2007
  #47
Lives for gear
 
Raw-Tracks's Avatar
 

If you are tracking bands every day, and making enough money to float an HD1 system, you will not be disappointed.

Good Luck !
Old 29th January 2007
  #48
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
Thanks so much to everyone giving their opinions on this matter.

Right now I'm recording bands every day of every week, other than Sun and Mon. so I'm definitely in a high traffic area and I hope to make it even higher traffic for myself.

I think I've decided to do basically both of what was suggested (1. Get HD / 2. Get better pre's & converters)

Right now I have...

Motu 2408 MKIII
Older Mackie Board (NOT Onyx)

I'm going to jump from that to this...

Pro Tools HD1
Digidesign 96 I/O
Digidesign DigiPre

I just want to upgrade ALL my pres first (8 channels), otherwise I would get some dual channel Avalons or something, which I will do in the future.

I think this will be a huge step in the sonic difference that I can get in my studio and help my overall studio progress as a business.

Thanks!
Get the Digi192 converter over the 96
And think about an HD2
Worry about that before the Digipre imho
Old 29th January 2007
  #49
Gear Addict
 
drewrevolution's Avatar
 

good idea.

i think i'll have enough money to afford a 192 i/o since i'm selling my g4 power mac

maybe i'm blind, but does gearslutz not have a trading post type forum?
Old 29th January 2007
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
I'm going to jump from that to this...

Pro Tools HD1
Digidesign 96 I/O
Digidesign DigiPre

I just want to upgrade ALL my pres first (8 channels), otherwise I would get some dual channel Avalons or something, which I will do in the future.

I think this will be a huge step in the sonic difference that I can get in my studio and help my overall studio progress as a business.

Thanks!
#1 Get a 192 like a previous poster said...
#2 Get HD 3, HD 1 won't cut it for long, and it's not much for HD 3. I don't know if you've gotten any quotes yet, but I got all my cards for 10k new.
#3 Don't get DigiPre. I guess you're just using the Mackie pre's right now? Well, if that's the case, I'd say get at least 2 channels that are great. Blow out most of your pre's budget on that. When I got my rig, 2 Germaniums fit in my budget, and I at that point I really need only 2 good pre's. I bought a Behringer ADA 8000 to do conversion for headphones, but it also has 8 pre's to lightpipe in that don't sound horrible. I'm sure they're on par with what you're already using. I think that instead of buying 8 channels of "okay" pre's, you should get 2 great channels and 8 decent ones.

Just my opinion, but I think you would see more benefit.
Old 29th January 2007
  #51
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HIGHENDONLY's Avatar
 

I don't care what daw you use, just go easy on the compression it's that very hard compression is what i hate about most modern music. I think leaving a lil dynamic range is great. To me if im going to start a business and need to attract clients, an hd system is great. You get things done very quick on it once you know what your doing. Now if your just someone who say your not going to be recording alot of people and you are just going to be recording your album or your friends ,family,etc. Id say any of the daws would be great cause you can take all the time in the world to complete your project.
Old 29th January 2007
  #52
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Stick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewrevolution View Post
good idea.

i think i'll have enough money to afford a 192 i/o since i'm selling my g4 power mac

maybe i'm blind, but does gearslutz not have a trading post type forum?
Yeah, on the main page, it's hidden down in the purple bar just below "Other Gearoovy Sitez!"

And another vote for HD. If you're gonna mix in the box, get as many Accel cards as you can.
Old 29th January 2007
  #53
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
Most of the people who are telling you not to get an HD or to get a used mix system are hiding in the shadows and
can't/don't feel like they are strong enough to back up their voices with their real names. BE AFRAID.


Hi, My name is Ronan Chris Murphy of Los Angeles, CA.

I have nothing against Pro Tools HD, but feel that most people would be better served spending $10 - 20,000 on improving their outboard and front end equipment and sticking with a mix system than spending that same money on moving to and HD system. Even if the sound of HD is 5 times better than a mix system, none of this matters if the sound going into it is crap. I would rather be recording with amazing mics and mic pres into an ADAT, than crappy front end into the top of the line HD rig any day of the week. I have done comparisons between Mix and HD systems and let me go on record as saying that the HD did sounded better, but the difference was no where near the as significant as between a mediocre mic pre amp and a great one (or the difference of my HD ITB vs HD on an SSL comparisons.)

I am not here to defend Mix systems, I am one of those guys that still thinks the sound of ITB with HD does not live up to a middle of the road analog console, etc. The thing is that I have pals that won Grammies for best engineering for records they did on 16 bit pro tools systems, and when the 888/24s came out they did not get their Grammies taken away. There are absolutely amazing sounding records done on mix systems, and when HD came out those records did not start sounding bad.

I have a Mix rig (and an analog console) in my room. I am certainly not the richest or biggest selling producer/engineer on this board, but since HD came out I have had one client express that having HD was important. I told the guy that I could get an HD rig in for the project for a couple hundred extra a day, and he decided the Mix rig was fine.
Old 29th January 2007
  #54
Gear Head
 

get an apogeee rosetta for better AD or DA
high end pre ( vintech, nv1.. ), and UAD_1 or TC power core, Liquidmix ..
my system is LE but with apogee converter it sound much better than an HD2 with digi converter.

Old 29th January 2007
  #55
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

I think that for that money a hd system cost, you can get better alternatives even software, and even hardware vise.
Almost forgot I agree with the above. Start from the source, it's much more important .

Tamas Dragon
Old 29th January 2007
  #56
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taturana's Avatar
with todays new computers, there are less and less reasons to fork out that kind of money on a hd system... stick to your cubase, get a new computer... take the money leftover and buy some great preamps and mics, controllers etc...and that's really the best advice... and will help your recordings sound better.

also if you're on a pc you can demo sonar6 to see if you like it, that's what i use... but cubase is just fine and will probably get a lot better in the next updates..

tony, the thing about the name is ridiculous... if someone wants my real name please PM me. i receive too much spam as is. either that or google my nick...
Old 29th January 2007
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post


Hi, My name is Ronan Chris Murphy of Los Angeles, CA.

I have nothing against Pro Tools HD, but feel that most people would be better served spending $10 - 20,000 on improving their outboard and front end equipment and sticking with a mix system than spending that same money on moving to and HD system. Even if the sound of HD is 5 times better than a mix system, none of this matters if the sound going into it is crap. I would rather be recording with amazing mics and mic pres into an ADAT, than crappy front end into the top of the line HD rig any day of the week. I have done comparisons between Mix and HD systems and let me go on record as saying that the HD did sounded better, but the difference was no where near the as significant as between a mediocre mic pre amp and a great one (or the difference of my HD ITB vs HD on an SSL comparisons.)

I am not here to defend Mix systems, I am one of those guys that still thinks the sound of ITB with HD does not live up to a middle of the road analog console, etc. The thing is that I have pals that won Grammies for best engineering for records they did on 16 bit pro tools systems, and when the 888/24s came out they did not get their Grammies taken away. There are absolutely amazing sounding records done on mix systems, and when HD came out those records did not start sounding bad.

I have a Mix rig (and an analog console) in my room. I am certainly not the richest or biggest selling producer/engineer on this board, but since HD came out I have had one client express that having HD was important. I told the guy that I could get an HD rig in for the project for a couple hundred extra a day, and he decided the Mix rig was fine.
I agree with the points you've raised. I don't disagree that Mix is fine if you already own it, but to buy one now I think would be a bad idea.

I think that my suggestion of getting at least two good pre's falls in line with what you're saying though.

I'm in no way a big name on this board at all, but I did just get an HD rig, and I'm expressing my opinions on how I went about it. I considered Mix, and still am for a second room, but I think that HD is the way to go now-a-days.
Old 29th January 2007
  #58
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soundeq's Avatar
 

if you can afford it (and all the extras, plugins, etc) go for it!
Computer equipment are like cars, Your resale will never be anywhere close to your original value.

Working with PT HD is just... easy... no time dicking around setting crap up, and figuring out latency stuff, no converting files between facilites (because if you don't use PT, everything you get in and send out will need to be converted).

If you want to just work, PT is the best IMO.
If you like fu&)(Uing around with converters/Io's/updates/file transfers/ then get somthing else, I'm not saying that PT doesn't have its bugs at times, but usually they are easy fixes, and get you back to WORK!

Old 29th January 2007
  #59
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
One thing Tony and I agree on, is that you should be wary of people posting with out a name. I wish people could not post anonymously on Gear Slutz. I think the whole board would be a lot more interesting and helpful if each time you saw some ones opinion you could go check them out to see where they are coming from. You could see if it was posted by a hobbiest with no records under his belt or some one like Michael Wagener.

BTW, Tony and I both have interesting discographies, but his kicks the pants off of mine.
Old 29th January 2007
  #60
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
One thing Tony and I agree on, is that you should be wary of people posting with out a name. I wish people could not post anonymously on Gear Slutz. I think the whole board would be a lot more interesting and helpful if each time you saw some ones opinion you could go check them out to see where they are coming from. You could see if it was posted by a hobbiest with no records under his belt or some one like Michael Wagener.

BTW, Tony and I both have interesting discographies, but his kicks the pants off of mine.
I see what you're saying.

I just hope you're not saying that I'm just a hobbyist though... heh
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