The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
What is it about RADAR?
Old 10th March 2007
  #91
Gear Maniac
 
Push845's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kelvinchan55 View Post
it is pain to do editing on Radar......
NO way!... Editing is the easiest thing around! You don't have to hold a goofy mouse for hours! scroll to find your mark in- mark out points, press 1 button (or 2 if you sometimes have to hit the shift button) and your done. I gotta be careful here not to start the Radar/PT wars!
Old 10th March 2007
  #92
Gear Maniac
 
Push845's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
Hence the reason why I switched.
I can't think of a high end artist that does not want the vocals timed and tuned.
I can't think of a huge selling album that didn't have Auto-tune and the drums were not beat detectived to hell and back.

Sure there are exceptions to the rule. But the more you sell, the more you are expected to obtain perfection in your music.

Hey, it's not for everybody...
Man...If I had to "Auto-Tune and beat det." as much as you say they do, Those people shouldn't be recording in the first place. It seems people forget its about the art of talent, not machines.
Old 10th March 2007
  #93
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Push845 View Post
Man...If I had to "Auto-Tune and beat det." as much as you say they do, Those people shouldn't be recording in the first place. It seems people forget its about the art of talent, not machines.
+1!
Old 10th March 2007
  #94
Gear Nut
 
RedEar's Avatar
 

+100
Old 10th March 2007
  #95
Lives for gear
 

Over $11,000 for a system!

Old 10th March 2007
  #96
Lives for gear
 
M.S.P.'s Avatar
Its not cheap, but if you were to buy AD/DA converters and clock of similar quality for a DAW, how much would that cost?
Old 12th March 2007
  #97
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vartan k View Post
Over $11,000 for a system!

And don't forget to buy a nice console to mix it through.

-R
Old 13th March 2007
  #98
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Push845 View Post
Man...If I had to "Auto-Tune and beat det." as much as you say they do, Those people shouldn't be recording in the first place. It seems people forget its about the art of talent, not machines.

Maybe so, but that's the way modern records are made.
For better or worse a lot of these albums are severley timed and tuned and timed
An no, I don't forget about the art side of things, but if my art can make the project better.... why not?

I'm not talking about garage bands forgoing their beer money and coming into the local studio to try and make a record.
The last 3 high end records I worked on had a dedicated PT guy for the project.
That's what his job was, make it perfect.

Hey, if they can afford my day rate and I can like them as an artist, then I give them want they want.

I've worked on RADAR's for many years. I did beta testing for them. Hell, I was the quintessential poster boy, literally.
It's a great box, but it doesn't come close to the speed of a DAW.
Moving, tuning, timing and mixing sometimes 80 to 110 tracks session?

Sure, just not on a RADAR...
Old 13th March 2007
  #99
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
... That's what his job was, make it perfect ...
I think the key here is how one defines "perfect". My tastes don't liken the word perfect with auto-tuning and "fixing" timing. In general, I would describe what you are calling "perfect" as one dimensional, generic, bland, stiff, lacking feel, non-musical, homogenized, etc. Obviously your mileage varies...
Old 13th March 2007
  #100
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
Radar is just awesome.
Old 13th March 2007
  #101
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlocascio View Post
I think the key here is how one defines "perfect". My tastes don't liken the word perfect with auto-tuning and "fixing" timing. In general, I would describe what you are calling "perfect" as one dimensional, generic, bland, stiff, lacking feel, non-musical, homogenized, etc. Obviously your mileage varies...
Mark, it's the artist and the label who get to call when it's "perfect " for them.
If that's not for you, then don't work on that kind of music.
Old 13th March 2007
  #102
Lives for gear
 
thermos's Avatar
I didn't read the whole thread, but.....
The converters are awesome, yes. But, when the same tracks are played back with the Radar machine it also sounds way better than the same tracks played back in a daw.
Someone explained to me once why this was (he sat next to one of the IZ guys on the plane), and it really made sense then. But I can't remember exactly. Something about the clock being isolated from the ground (I know nothing about electronics). Anyway, it was a way of making the machine operate that no one else in the whole industry employs.

All I know is they are by far the most enjoyable converters I've ever gotten to track though.
Old 13th March 2007
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlocascio View Post
I think the key here is how one defines "perfect". My tastes don't liken the word perfect with auto-tuning and "fixing" timing. In general, I would describe what you are calling "perfect" as one dimensional, generic, bland, stiff, lacking feel, non-musical, homogenized, etc. Obviously your mileage varies...

"Perfect" is how the client wants it.
Old 13th March 2007
  #104
Lives for gear
I have a hardware Autotune (as well as two other 19" boxes that have pitch correction in them) so that I do not have to leave Radar. We also have software Autotune for PT and Soundscape, but I find using hardware much easier.

One can just flip through the keys and listen on the fly and then print what you hear and patch that into the existing track or a second track.

Once somebodyelse was using the Radar and I found myself trying to edit in a DAW and thought how much easier it would be in Radar. It all depends what you are trying to do. To just state that getting things 'perfect' is easier in a PC-Mac style DAW is just not true.

When it comes to tracking a live act, there is no alternative to Radar for speed and ease of use. My only gripe about PT is that it does not excell at anything. One can track on it if you take your time and are careful, it is mostly stable, the 192 converters are OK, the MIDI is good enough for most things, it is not the slowest DAW out there and editing is better than most.

In an ideal World, one would have the means (and more importantly, the time!) to do the various tasks on different systems. Until such time, I start with Radar as it is quicker and easier to use than anything else and, yes, it does sound better.
Old 13th March 2007
  #105
Lives for gear
 
heyman's Avatar
There are even more features coming in version 3.40 of Radar..
Deeper zoom, etc...

When I first used the Radar controller and a monitor with no mouse, it was weird...

weird for about 10 minutes..

I actually prefer the session controller and a monitor over a mouse now..!!!

what a great machine..

The RADAR is based off of BeOS... It is a shame more companies didnt get behind BeOS when it came out.. it was built from the ground up to be a OS for Multimedia.
Rock Solid..
Old 13th March 2007
  #106
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman View Post
There are even more features coming in version 3.40 of Radar..
Deeper zoom, etc.....
Go on!
Old 13th March 2007
  #107
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
So Byre, I know it's been 3 weeks since I have been in front of a RADAR, but riddle me this?

I am working with a composer on a piece of music for Sony.
We are tracking vocals in his RADAR and he wants to fly them around.
The only problem is, it's a variable tempo.
Because it's mainly an orchestral cue, the temp starts of at 76 goes up to 114 and is many places in between the 4 minutes cue.

Now I've been around RADAR's for about 10 years now, but as fast as I am on a RADAR, I still can't make a variable tempo cue (song) follow along for flying vocals.
When we were done were moved them the files into the composers Digital Performer because it was faster doing that, than trying to fly something without VTM.

Am I missing something? I would like to be enlightened as to how it's faster in RADAR to fly those vocals without a variable tempo map?
Old 13th March 2007
  #108
Lives for gear
That's why I said that it depends on what you are trying to do!

Of course VTM is one of the great strengths of DP, Logic and PT and in-depth editing is not something I would want to do in Radar.

Some 60% of Radar owners use it in conjunction with a DAW, usually PT. This should not be a silly "Ooh-er Radar is BETTER than ProTools!" but a discussion about why one should have Radar (or not as the case may be!) either with or without an additional DAW for editing.

One of the advantages of Radar is that it makes a brilliant front-end for a DAW and therefore can save you money, as well as being the best tracking suystem (IMO). On the other hand, if you are moving vocals around or need to re-time the drums, you will still need that DAW.
Old 13th March 2007
  #109
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
I when the same tracks are played back with the Radar machine it also sounds way better than the same tracks played back in a daw.
Someone explained to me once why this was (he sat next to one of the IZ guys on the plane), and it really made sense then.
The tracks played back from the Radar would have to be going through a console, right? The tracks playing back in the DAW presumably are not going through a console, otherwise they wouldn't be playing back "in the DAW".

Now what do you think might account for the difference?

-R
Old 13th March 2007
  #110
Gear Maniac
 
lm66's Avatar
OT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
Hence the reason why I switched.
I can't think of a high end artist that does not want the vocals timed and tuned.
I can't think of a huge selling album that didn't have Auto-tune and the drums were not beat detectived to hell and back.

Sure there are exceptions to the rule. But the more you sell, the more you are expected to obtain perfection in your music.

Hey, it's not for everybody...
Do you really think autotuned vocals and quantized drums lead music to perfection ?

Perfection is about maths.

Music is not maths.
Old 13th March 2007
  #111
Gear Head
 
actionjackson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
The tracks played back from the Radar would have to be going through a console, right? The tracks playing back in the DAW presumably are not going through a console, otherwise they wouldn't be playing back "in the DAW".

Now what do you think might account for the difference?

-R
I believe for many of the A/B comparisons that have been done, DAW tracks as well as RADAR tracks have been run through the same console. Any other comparison would seem invalid from my perspective.

Action
Old 13th March 2007
  #112
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by actionjackson View Post
I believe for many of the A/B comparisons that have been done, DAW tracks as well as RADAR tracks have been run through the same console. Any other comparison would seem invalid from my perspective.

Action
I haven't heard any myself. Have you?

I don't sense that all these opinions that get bandied about are based on any controlled comparisons. I think people using Radar are also using a console, and that adds to the overall positive experience.

-R
Old 13th March 2007
  #113
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lm66 View Post
Do you really think autotuned vocals and quantized drums lead music to perfection ?

Perfection is about maths.

Music is not maths.
When my client thinks it's perfection, I'm happy.
Hopefully at that point I have made what he has been hearing in his head come to fruition.

I've said it before, but it's done when the client or the label says it's done!

Have any of you all asking these inane questions ever worked for a label? LOL

If you're client cuts a vocal and wants to tune it, do you tell the client no?!
I guess you wouldn't have clients for very long.

Within reason, Make The Client Happy.
If he wants to tune his or her vocal....DO IT!!!
Old 14th March 2007
  #114
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lm66 View Post
Do you really think autotuned vocals and quantized drums lead music to perfection ?

Perfection is about maths.

Music is not maths.
This is the High End and with High end major label big (or not so big) budget projects there typically is no choice in the matter of autotune, gridded drums, etc....it's required. Many top producers and their engineers hate the environment PT has created, yet the sad fact is it's the Major labels that require this perfection, it's not your choice.

The best you can do is fudge a little here and there. Usually you don't correct/perfect every hit or note as much as you can....get away with, that is.

Sorry guys, but Tony is correct....and I pretty much put all the blame on the labels.

Due to this, it has become a PT environment, plain and simple. There are exceptions (as always), yet they are far in the minority.
Old 14th March 2007
  #115
Gear Maniac
 
lm66's Avatar
OT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
This is the High End and with High end major label big (or not so big) budget projects there typically is no choice in the matter of autotune, gridded drums, etc....it's required. Many top producers and their engineers hate the environment PT has created, yet the sad fact is it's the Major labels that require this perfection, it's not your choice.

The best you can do is fudge a little here and there. Usually you don't correct/perfect every hit or note as much as you can....get away with, that is.

Sorry guys, but Tony is correct....and I pretty much put all the blame on the labels.

Well, you're not talking about music but commercial pressure...

Hopefully there are still musical prods which don't need any autotune. Do you know Jazz ?

Do you think the 70's prods (King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, etc.) needed autotune or any kind of beat hunter ?

Try to Beatdedective Jack de Johnette drum's parts during a mix session and he'll burn you on place.

All kind of music do not depend upon stupid commercial habits.

I guess the word music does'nt mean the same thing for you and me.
Old 14th March 2007
  #116
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
This is the High End and with High end major label big (or not so big) budget projects there typically is no choice in the matter of autotune, gridded drums, etc....it's required. Many top producers and their engineers hate the environment PT has created, yet the sad fact is it's the Major labels that require this perfection, it's not your choice.

The best you can do is fudge a little here and there. Usually you don't correct/perfect every hit or note as much as you can....get away with, that is.

Sorry guys, but Tony is correct....and I pretty much put all the blame on the labels.

Due to this, it has become a PT environment, plain and simple. There are exceptions (as always), yet they are far in the minority.
I don't agree. It's not the labels in the control room asking the engineer or the producer to autotune the vocal. I'm not advocating that these things don't have some place, go back and listen to some of the eighties hit's that are all over the place tunning wise. Would autotune be a better solution? My main objection is when they are used unecessarily with artists that can sing, this suggests that the engineer/producer doesn't have the ears or the taste to know to leave alone, I'm sure most of us saw the youtube video of Billy Joel being autotuned at the superbowl. The problem IMHO is that the business has become very much more amateur than it used to be, particularly on the production side, guys who are good with computers being called engineers after six months, to tell the truth I have never met an engineer who was much good with less than 10 years under their belt.

Regards


Roland
Old 14th March 2007
  #117
Lives for gear
 
chymer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lm66 View Post
Do you think the 70's prods (King Crimson, Led Zeppelin, etc.) needed autotune or any kind of beat hunter ?
I reckon if they had those tools back then they probably would have used them.
Old 14th March 2007
  #118
Lives for gear
 
Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chymer View Post
I reckon if they had those tools back then they probably would have used them.
Your right about that. And to whomever asked about tuning Jazz.
I do it all the time. Flute and sax solos especially on Amazing players that want it perfect.
Tons of times when the artist want their best foot forward we tune or time things.

There is a fine line between USE and ABUSE.
Find the line and you'll be okay
Old 14th March 2007
  #119
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post

I've said it before, but it's done when the client or the label says it's done!

Have any of you all asking these inane questions ever worked for a label? LOL

If you're client cuts a vocal and wants to tune it, do you tell the client no!
I guess you wouldn't have clients for very long.

Within reason Make the client happy.
If he wants to tune his or her vocal....DO IT!!!
First class advice there!

Too many people trying to run commercial operations buy kit because they think it is good.

I'll give you a piece of advice and I'll only say this once - buy a piece of kit (Radar, ProTools, the latest doofus plug-in) because the customer wants it.

If YOU are the customer (i.e. home recording) well, that's all fine and good. But if you are trying to get walk-in trade (or call-on-the-phone trade!) ask the customer what he wants.

What you want is 100% irrelevant. If you have fallen in love with some magic monitors, well, that fine and dandy, but make sure you have got the monitors that your key customers expect to see and hear. Same goes for mics, effects and all the other bits and pieces that go to make up a studio. Some things really don't matter like make of mic-stands or patchbay, but the key pieces have to be what the customer wants and not what you think they aught to have!

If the customer says that they need bar-beat editing, Vocaline, Autotuning and God-knows what else on their tracks, don't argue with them, don't go purist on their arses, just do it.
Old 14th March 2007
  #120
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
There is a fine line between USE and ABUSE.
Find the line and you'll be okay
I wish more people would find the line.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump