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Kii Three-Have you heard them? Studio Monitors
Old 5 days ago
  #1861
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
Didn't find on Kii's manual. WHAT'S THE MINIMUM DISTANCE POSITION TO LISTEN TO Kii???? My room is very small with only 2,40 meters long. My desk has 1 meter long.
Contact Kii support.
Old 5 days ago
  #1862
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
Contact Kii support.

So, that's what I just did.
I don't know if they are trying to push or "force" the sell to me, but they said that 70cm is OK.

Anyone tried this short distance and felt good?????
Old 5 days ago
  #1863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
So, that's what I just did.
I don't know if they are trying to push or "force" the sell to me, but they said that 70cm is OK.

Anyone tried this short distance and felt good?????
I'm not far off that, I'll measure them when I get back for you. I'd be more worried about the reflections though!
Old 5 days ago
  #1864
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I’m not sure I’d want to put the Kiis in a tiny room without room for proper acoustic treatment. Maybe they work great but they’re pretty deep monitors and put out some serious low end, and they will not be better than the acoustics of the room they’re in. You might not get the performance you’re paying for. I’d demo them in that room first at least if you have your heart set on them.

Maybe some other sealed clean monitors with good phase between drivers will be as good a fit in a small room. I liked working on a few other speakers but moved up to Kiis because those smaller monitors went out of steam for Urban genres in the bigger room and I’m not often pleased with subwoofer integration.

I liked the Dynaudio LYD 48 which has pretty clean and detailed lows even though they’re ported boxes: they have digital amps with digital crossovers but they ran out of headroom and have a small amount of hiss (could live with that though) so instead of buying expensive subs I got the Kiis. Otherwise I’d be perfectly happy with them. Lots of monitors out there, good luck.
Old 4 days ago
  #1865
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for the advice. My room is very well treated with 20cm special walls (dont know how to say in english) to absorb 360 all around me. It's like a big bass trap on all walls and ceilling. But I didn't test this room yet because is under construction.

Thinking about the Kii price and 20hz-45hz problems if the room can't absorb it (maybe this room doesn't work who knows....), I was thinking on buying the GENELEC 8341 instead of the Kii for half the price.

The seller of Kii (maybe he is just lying) told me that if I have any problems with the low frequencies from the Kii THREE, I will have the same problems with the Genelec 8341.

Anyone disagree?? Do you think is better to get Genelecs with DSP correction than the Kii??

PS: I can't test Genelecs neither Kii because I live in Brazil and nobody has them to make theses tests.
Old 4 days ago
  #1866
20-45hz won’t be cardioid on the speakers anyway and to absorb in that area you should add a zero to the 20cm special walls....so your dealer is right
Old 4 days ago
  #1867
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With the arrival of Kiis new BXT sub module imminent ,I thought a comparison of the two might be useful.
Kii THREE versus Kii THREE + BXT! | Purite Audio London,Kii THREE Dutch&Dutch 8C
I will add measurements and subjective thoughts as soon as the BXt modules arrive which hopefully should be before the end of this month.
Keith
Old 4 days ago
  #1868
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weile View Post
Thanks for the advice. My room is very well treated with 20cm special walls (dont know how to say in english) to absorb 360 all around me. It's like a big bass trap on all walls and ceilling. But I didn't test this room yet because is under construction.

Thinking about the Kii price and 20hz-45hz problems if the room can't absorb it (maybe this room doesn't work who knows....), I was thinking on buying the GENELEC 8341 instead of the Kii for half the price.

The seller of Kii (maybe he is just lying) told me that if I have any problems with the low frequencies from the Kii THREE, I will have the same problems with the Genelec 8341.

Anyone disagree?? Do you think is better to get Genelecs with DSP correction than the Kii??

PS: I can't test Genelecs neither Kii because I live in Brazil and nobody has them to make theses tests.
I have both kii & 8351, kii's LF is much much better, tighter, and lower. Also kii's sound stage is better, superb space resolution. 8341/51 are ported design and have a steep drop off curve on LF.

8351 is a little better on MF. If price is not concern and you don't want to buy a subwoofer then kii should be a better choice IMHO.
Old 4 days ago
  #1869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puriteaudio View Post
With the arrival of Kiis new BXT sub module imminent ,I thought a comparison of the two might be useful.
Kii THREE versus Kii THREE + BXT! | Purite Audio London,Kii THREE Dutch&Dutch 8C
I will add measurements and subjective thoughts as soon as the BXt modules arrive which hopefully should be before the end of this month.
Keith
Didn't you recon 8c as a better monitor than kii three? If so how could kii + BXT be the best monitor...It would only be louder/more dynamic.
Old 4 days ago
  #1870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
I have both kii & 8351, kii's LF is much much better, tighter, and lower. Also kii's sound stage is better, superb space resolution. 8341/51 are ported design and have a steep drop off curve on LF.

8351 is a little better on MF. If price is not concern and you don't want to buy a subwoofer then kii should be a better choice IMHO.
As mentioned, I agree on your opinion on LF without a doubt (8351's are no slouch there, but Kii's are some of the best LF performers if you don't need high SPL), but unfortunately do not agree on sound stage, stereo image and dynamics.
Old 4 days ago
  #1871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Didn't you recon 8c as a better monitor than kii three? If so how could kii + BXT be the best monitor...It would only be louder/more dynamic.
I have thought they were both exceptional monitors and head and shoulders better than anything else available at the moment.
I am not at all sure the BXT will add anything for ‘pro’ users , I can see it be much more popular among Hi-end users but we shall see.
Keith
Old 4 days ago
  #1872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
As mentioned, I agree on your opinion on LF without a doubt (8351's are no slouch there, but Kii's are some of the best LF performers if you don't need high SPL), but unfortunately do not agree on sound stage, stereo image and dynamics.
As you know I put 8351 & kii three side by side, and I instantly change monitor with just 2 clicks(left hand mute/un-mute GLM and right hand mute/un-mute Kii controller) for many many times, and the kii's sound stage is really much better, it's very obvious.

Before this test I also used to put them in different position and my conclusion was the same, I think this really is not subjective. For dynamics 8351 is better. Kii is very easy to overload.
Old 4 days ago
  #1873
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I believe you should put them in the same position to accurately test this, I did it myself. Even slight position change (5cm) can in smaller rooms affect performance to a significant extend due to the fact that the first reflections are less delayed than when side walls and ceiling are further. Expecially, since Kii's emit mids in a cardioid pattern, this might contribute to the better performance in your room, while in better conditions this might (and in my opinion does) change. As already mentioned, I am not dissing Kii's, they are magnificent and overall better speaker due to the exceptional low end performance, but since they are priced twice as much, situation dramatically changes when you suplement 8351s with two subs (which integrate dead easily with GLM and if you have at least some acoustical knowledge how to position them). Kiis are great, but not that great for the price. D&D's give them a serious run for the price.

For the price of Kiis you enter the domain of more capable speakers like ATC SCM 50/100s and bigger Genelecs (1237 and bigger) where small boxes simply cannot compete.
Old 4 days ago
  #1874
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
For the price of Kiis you enter the domain of more capable speakers like ATC SCM 50/100s and bigger Genelecs (1237 and bigger) where small boxes simply cannot compete.
Yes it's indeed expensive.

This maybe out of topic but do you find 8351+7260's LF to be soft/not tight? because I find 8351 ported design to be very soft on LF even compare to sonnarworks enhanced ATC20, the bass attack(the attack sound when you pluck the bass strings) on 8351 is weak. I worry about 7380 to be the same kind of sound.
Old 4 days ago
  #1875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
I think this really is not subjective.
It IS subjective, not even considering all of the variables beyond your personal listening preferences.
Quote:
For dynamics 8351 is better. Kii is very easy to overload.
I would not even consider the Kii then based on this fact alone, as the 8351s are right on the edge for me in this regard.
Old 4 days ago
  #1876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I believe you should put them in the same position to accurately test this, I did it myself. Even slight position change (5cm) can in smaller rooms affect performance to a significant extend due to the fact that the first reflections are less delayed than when side walls and ceiling are further. Expecially, since Kii's emit mids in a cardioid pattern, this might contribute to the better performance in your room, while in better conditions this might (and in my opinion does) change. As already mentioned, I am not dissing Kii's, they are magnificent and overall better speaker due to the exceptional low end performance, but since they are priced twice as much, situation dramatically changes when you suplement 8351s with two subs (which integrate dead easily with GLM and if you have at least some acoustical knowledge how to position them). Kiis are great, but not that great for the price. D&D's give them a serious run for the price.

For the price of Kiis you enter the domain of more capable speakers like ATC SCM 50/100s and bigger Genelecs (1237 and bigger) where small boxes simply cannot compete.
I haven’t had ATC’s 100s but the Kiis are much more capable than their active 50’s,we had here, bass extension, clarity ,everything subjectively and objectively backed by measurement.

Keith
Old 4 days ago
  #1877
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by puriteaudio View Post
I haven’t had ATC’s 100s but the Kiis are much more capable than their active 50’s,we had here, bass extension, clarity ,everything subjectively and objectively backed by measurement.

Keith
Funny that I found vocals on ATC20 is more attractive. For chamber music/vocal heavy music ATC20's sound is like magic, feels very close and detailed, while kii's sound is far away and not as prominent. I can only guess bigger ATCs to be even better on that.
Old 4 days ago
  #1878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Yes it's indeed expensive.

This maybe out of topic but do you find 8351+7260's LF to be soft/not tight? because I find 8351 ported design to be very soft on LF even compare to sonnarworks enhanced ATC20, the bass attack(the attack sound when you pluck the bass strings) on 8351 is weak. I worry about 7380 to be the same kind of sound.
This is again room dependant. If your initial transient impulse gets followed by a decaying bloom of low end you might percieve it as slow. But since I’ve had nany speakers in my room I will say that with two subs it is pretty fast with great transient, but even without suvs it appears pretty fast in ny room. There is one more thing, with subs attached the clarity of the midrange even improves.
Old 4 days ago
  #1879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Funny that I found vocals on ATC20 is more attractive. For chamber music/vocal heavy music ATC20's sound is like magic, feels very close and detailed, while kii's sound is far away and not as prominent. I can only guess bigger ATCs to be even better on that.
Vocals on NS10s are attractive as well. Since you have less extended lows combined with ATC tightness, the mids appear more forward. And this goves you the sense of additional richness. Even SCMs 50 and 100 are percieved as “bass light” by some, which puts extra emphasis on mids. ATCs SL bass driver is very specific and many also don’t like it because they are not used to hearing such a clear bass.
Old 4 days ago
  #1880
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
This is again room dependant. If your initial transient impulse gets followed by a decaying bloom of low end you might percieve it as slow. But since I’ve had nany speakers in my room I will say that with two subs it is pretty fast with great transient, but even without suvs it appears pretty fast in ny room. There is one more thing, with subs attached the clarity of the midrange even improves.
Thanks for sharing. Since my monitors are in the relatively same position I think what I hear is just monitor difference. Anyway I just figured out REW, will do some sweeps. I'll post the results here
Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Vocals on NS10s are attractive as well. Since you have less extended lows combined with ATC tightness, the mids appear more forward. And this goves you the sense of additional richness. Even SCMs 50 and 100 are percieved as “bass light” by some, which puts extra emphasis on mids. ATCs SL bass driver is very specific and many also don’t like it because they are not used to hearing such a clear bass.

I don't think that's the reason because after cooked by sonnarworks the LF in boosted a lot on ATC20, so that It is even comparable with 8351 on LF response.
Old 4 days ago
  #1881
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I measured Kii three frequency response and found the left speaker's tweeter to be problematic. Since I also measured it with sonarworks and got the same result I think there is no measurement problem. Do you think this is a faulty speaker?
Attached Thumbnails
Kii Three-Have you heard them?-kii-2.jpg   Kii Three-Have you heard them?-kii-1.jpg   Kii Three-Have you heard them?-cooked-kii-three.jpg  
Old 4 days ago
  #1882
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If you measure in Sonarworks with perfect phase setting on the Kii the highs get chopped off as Sonarworks hasn’t left ina buffer of 100ms or so for the latency. I made Sonarworks aware of the issue before summer but no fix in the latest update. It shall work in the low latency mode.
Old 4 days ago
  #1883
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DB117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckdaddy View Post
If you measure in Sonarworks with perfect phase setting on the Kii the highs get chopped off as Sonarworks hasn’t left ina buffer of 100ms or so for the latency. I made Sonarworks aware of the issue before summer but no fix in the latest update. It shall work in the low latency mode.
I'm sorry I forgot to say all the REW measurements were done with sonarworks off, so the signal is not processed by DSP before entering Kii three. And I tried both low latency mode & exact mode, same results.

Another problem: when doing sweep with kii three there are many popping electrostatic kind of noise, which did not appear with ATC20/8351 sweeping, really weird.
Old 3 days ago
  #1884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
I measured Kii three frequency response and found the left speaker's tweeter to be problematic. Since I also measured it with sonarworks and got the same result I think there is no measurement problem. Do you think this is a faulty speaker?
Not using it at present, but If I remember correctly when I first tested Sonarworks I had to use the analogue inputs on the Kii’s with another interface, switching using the Kii Control.

When I went in digitaly it would always screw up the measurement in the high’s.

After measuring, simply switch it back from XLR to USB on the Kii Controller to switch back to digital again along with your new captured measurements chosen in the Software. Also you might want to put the Kii in “Minimum” latency instead of “Exact mode” as Deckdaddy mentioned to see if this helps any further in the measuring process if your not having any luck.

If that fails, maybe contact Kii directly!
Old 3 days ago
  #1885
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
I'm sorry I forgot to say all the REW measurements were done with sonarworks off, so the signal is not processed by DSP before entering Kii three. And I tried both low latency mode & exact mode, same results.

Another problem: when doing sweep with kii three there are many popping electrostatic kind of noise, which did not appear with ATC20/8351 sweeping, really weird.
OMG...

You seem to take an impartial dive into different brands and designs, so I wonder: Does the Kii3 enclosure vibrate when you play? The Kii3s I had in my room were clearly vibrating, yet few Kii owners want to discuss this.
Old 3 days ago
  #1886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie-1 View Post
Not using it at present, but If I remember correctly when I first tested Sonarworks I had to use the analogue inputs on the Kii’s with another interface, switching using the Kii Control.
Exactly. Sonarworks doesn't allow different input/output devices for measuring.
I used steinberg ur12 as the soundcard when measuring with sonarworks.
Old 3 days ago
  #1887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
OMG...

You seem to take an impartial dive into different brands and designs, so I wonder: Does the Kii3 enclosure vibrate when you play? The Kii3s I had in my room were clearly vibrating, yet few Kii owners want to discuss this.
Most monitors(not with a horrible price tag like the Wilsons) would vibrate when playing sound. Kii Three indeed have slightly more obvious vibration compare to 8351 and ATC20, but I don't know if it would audibly affect the sound quality(because there is no controlled variable comparison, and I don't have the appropriate equipments to measure vibration), I would assume not if you use good isolations.
Old 3 days ago
  #1888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DB117 View Post
Thanks for sharing. Since my monitors are in the relatively same position I think what I hear is just monitor difference. Anyway I just figured out REW, will do some sweeps. I'll post the results here
Kii Three vs. Genelec 8351 vs. ATC SCM20ASL My subjective feeling
It is not a monitor difference. It is a difference of particular's monitor interraction with your room.

As you can see from the measurements you did and posted today, you should first sort out your room. You've done good measurements, which showed you all the speakers perform very very poor in your room.

You could also see that ATC don't have low end like Genelecs do even after Sonarworks, like you've stated, so you should not take Sonarworks' simulated curve as a true response (which is clearly visible in your REW measurements). You percieve Genelec bass as soft as you have some nasty peaks in the sub range (30-60Hz) with significant ringing followed by a massive dip in the 60-80Hz and then again the pattern repeats. Where ATCs have no usable response below 45Hz. So this ringing in the 30-50Hz gives you a huge impression of slow bass that you have been talking about. Just look at the REW graf where you showed LF response only. As you can see even Kii's cardioid response doesn't help you much. Actually Genelecs seem to have the most even response in your room.

While ATCs have probably quickest decay in the lows, it won't matter in your room, because decay times due to your LF bounce is far above the real decay time of any of the speakers mentioned here. As you can see, ATCs also start to experience ringing at 45Hz once their response rises. But Genelecs do this from below 30Hz on and this totally masks your mids and makes no chance to get any reall impression of the LF performance.

In a good environment you would not percieve such differences with these speakers and they would play much more in the same field where the biggest difference would be LF extension and here the Kiis would prevail. All these issues also give you completely false perception of soundstage that you are talking about.

All I am saying again is that you are deeling with three very good speakers, which all perform so much under their specifications in your room, that it doesn't make sense what you choose, you'll never have truthful sound in your current conditions. You are not evaluating speakers but your room. My suggestion is to return any two of the three speakers you currently have and rather invest in a few PSI AVAA Traps for some quick significant LF improvement attacking your very concentrated room modes.
Old 3 days ago
  #1889
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DB117's Avatar
 

Thanks Jantex, as always.
First, please see attached, is it really that bad?
The 1/12th octave smoothed graph is pretty much just +-6dB.
Second, as I replied in my own post, I have to test it this way. It seems out of topic here so I won't copy it again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
It is not a monitor difference. It is a difference of particular's monitor interraction with your room.

As you can see from the measurements you did and posted today, you should first sort out your room. You've done good measurements, which showed you all the speakers perform very very poor in your room.

You could also see that ATC don't have low end like Genelecs do even after Sonarworks, like you've stated, so you should not take Sonarworks' simulated curve as a true response (which is clearly visible in your REW measurements). You percieve Genelec bass as soft as you have some nasty peaks in the sub range (30-60Hz) with significant ringing followed by a massive dip in the 60-80Hz and then again the pattern repeats. Where ATCs have no usable response below 45Hz. So this ringing in the 30-50Hz gives you a huge impression of slow bass that you have been talking about. Just look at the REW graf where you showed LF response only. As you can see even Kii's cardioid response doesn't help you much. Actually Genelecs seem to have the most even response in your room.

While ATCs have probably quickest decay in the lows, it won't matter in your room, because decay times due to your LF bounce is far above the real decay time of any of the speakers mentioned here. As you can see, ATCs also start to experience ringing at 45Hz once their response rises. But Genelecs do this from below 30Hz on and this totally masks your mids and makes no chance to get any reall impression of the LF performance.

In a good environment you would not percieve such differences with these speakers and they would play much more in the same field where the biggest difference would be LF extension and here the Kiis would prevail. All these issues also give you completely false perception of soundstage that you are talking about.

All I am saying again is that you are deeling with three very good speakers, which all perform so much under their specifications in your room, that it doesn't make sense what you choose, you'll never have truthful sound in your current conditions. You are not evaluating speakers but your room. My suggestion is to return any two of the three speakers you currently have and rather invest in a few PSI AVAA Traps for some quick significant LF improvement attacking your very concentrated room modes.
Attached Thumbnails
Kii Three-Have you heard them?-12th-smoothed-genelec.jpg   Kii Three-Have you heard them?-12th-smoothed-atc.jpg  
Old 3 days ago
  #1890
DB117 said "I test them in this environment is because my new house is under decoration, and I have to make decisions now, but I dont want to do any Acoustic Treatment in this room because I wont be living here for a long time."

If I was you, I'd wait or take the new house for a fews days for tests. This is a really bad method and the timing is not right so there are many chances ( when you want to force things) that'll you'll end up regretting your choice.

Moreover you can't really hesitate between SCM20 and Kii. SCM 20 are less than half the price, meant for a different sized room/use. those monitors are not at all comparable. a bookshelf know for extremely tight bass? vs a dsp beast supposed to bring extension of subs?

Anyway to me, the only thing you get there, is a sense of the philosophy of each brand, wich could help you rule it out. But then again, in your final room you might love the other brand that was not for you

I'd delay the monitor choice, hesitating on forums is NOT saving time, nor it is when, in the final room, you will want to change them
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