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Kii Three-Have you heard them? Studio Monitors
Old 6 days ago
  #1741
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Lupez's Avatar
Am I the only one concerned with AD-DA quality on these speakers?
I would feel pretty dumb using these anonymous converter in place of my Symphony I/O, or even worse adding a conversion stage to it...
Old 6 days ago
  #1742
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
Am I the only one concerned with AD-DA quality on these speakers?
I would feel pretty dumb using these anonymous converter in place of my Symphony I/O, or even worse adding a conversion stage to it...
If it helps, I came from an audiophile/fool background and have owned and auditioned many top end dacs. The DA in the Kii's is exceptional (I'm selling my Lumin A1 as it happens).

If you feed them a digital signal there is a highly optimised audio path, purposely built with operational synergy by incredibly clever (and innovative) engineers.

Sum > parts.

Matching gear (speakers, amps, cables, dacs) is an infinitely more arduous (and volatile) route. Been there myself.
Old 6 days ago
  #1743
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Lupez's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post
If it helps, I came from an audiophile/fool background and have owned and auditioned many top end dacs. The DA in the Kii's is exceptional (I'm selling my Lumin A1 as it happens).

If you feed them a digital signal there is a highly optimised audio path, purposely built with operational synergy by incredibly clever (and innovative) engineers.

Sum > parts.

Matching gear (speakers, amps, cables, dacs) is an infinitely more arduous (and volatile) route. Been there myself.
Very informative, thanks again.
Do you work for Kii by the way? Just kidding!

My only other concern (apart from price of course) is latency. I am a musician and I could never work with audible latency whatsoever. What’s the minimum value you get in low latency mode?
Old 6 days ago
  #1744
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
Very informative, thanks again.
Do you work for Kii by the way? Just kidding!

My only other concern (apart from price of course) is latency. I am a musician and I could never work with audible latency whatsoever. What’s the minimum value you get in low latency mode?
Such a small that I record drums with them with no probs.
Old 6 days ago
  #1745
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
Very informative, thanks again.
Do you work for Kii by the way? Just kidding!

My only other concern (apart from price of course) is latency. I am a musician and I could never work with audible latency whatsoever. What’s the minimum value you get in low latency mode?
From the Kii website:

LOW-LATENCY MODE:
Analog input (A/D - D/A): 1030us (or 1,03ms)
Digital input (D/A only):
@ 192kHz = 945us (or 0,945ms)
@ 96kHz = 860us (or 0,860ms)
@ 48kHz = 1540us (or 1,540ms)

NORMAL MODE:
approximately 90ms
Old 6 days ago
  #1746
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
Very informative, thanks again.
Do you work for Kii by the way? Just kidding!

My only other concern (apart from price of course) is latency. I am a musician and I could never work with audible latency whatsoever. What’s the minimum value you get in low latency mode?


1ms in low latency mode, and the only thing disabled in the DSP is the perfect phase. All else is still in effect.

Even with the phase 'off' it sounds as sharp as the Amphions I had here. On is just nuts (and addictive!) :¬)
Old 6 days ago
  #1747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
Such a small that I record drums with them with no probs.
That doesn’t make sense Carloff!
You’re not the one hitting the drums and you’re monitoring an overall delayed mix through your monitors in your control room.
Old 6 days ago
  #1748
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
That doesn’t make sense Carloff!
You’re not the one hitting the drums and you’re monitoring an overall delayed mix through your monitors in your control room.
I have quit bleed in control room from hitting drums-have you ever tried to record delayed drums by monitoring with bleed from the recording room? And listen as producer if they are well or wrong played by timing ? impossible
Old 6 days ago
  #1749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
I have quit bleed in control room from hitting drums-have you ever tried to record delayed drums by monitoring with bleed from the recording room? And listen as producer if they are well or wrong played by timing ? impossible
No I’ve never tried that one!
Old 6 days ago
  #1750
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
No I’ve never tried that one!
So hope now it makes sense
Old 6 days ago
  #1751
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by puriteaudio View Post
The U.K. magazine Hi-Fi News has just reviewed the Kiis,
Purite Audio's Forum Kii THREE Dutch&Dutch 8C


Keith
Interestingly, the only objective news (as opposed to the flowery language) in the Hifi News article is their pointing out that the frequency response accuracy is +/-2.1 dB, which is four times the Kii stated specs of +/- 0.5 dB (since I have never seen a speaker that measures +/- 0.5 dB the Kii specs always looked worthy of further investigation).

The Hifi News article also casts light on (one of) the point(s) of the BXT module, cfr. measured THD of 3.4% at 100 Hz.
I don't think they specify how the frequency response measurements were made. I assume these were not (pseudo) anechoic measurements. Their measurements above 10kHz do not match other published reports I've seen.
Old 6 days ago
  #1752
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Lupez's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0se View Post


1ms in low latency mode, and the only thing disabled in the DSP is the perfect phase. All else is still in effect.

Even with the phase 'off' it sounds as sharp as the Amphions I had here. On is just nuts (and addictive!) :¬)
Hey another interesting info here...which Amphion did you use?
I am on small Amphions with Sonarworks but I still miss some clarity / resolution at times.
I considered the bigger ones but I wonder if I would better be off with something else.

Care to comment on the main differences? thanks!
Old 6 days ago
  #1753
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Strictly Stereo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phosphorein View Post
I don't think they specify how the frequency response measurements were made. I assume these were not (pseudo) anechoic measurements. Their measurements above 10kHz do not match other published reports I've seen.
I'm reading between the lines a bit, but based on what they do say about the measurements, it looks like HiFi News used pseudo-anechoic measurements.
Old 5 days ago
  #1754
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dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
So hope now it makes sense
Yes, you need better isolation
Old 5 days ago
  #1755
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
Yes, you need better isolation
Agree
Old 5 days ago
  #1756
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
Am I the only one concerned with AD-DA quality on these speakers?
I would feel pretty dumb using these anonymous converter in place of my Symphony I/O, or even worse adding a conversion stage to it...
The AD-DA quality is top notch.

Even if you feed the Kiis an analog signal that gets converted internally to digital for processing, you will find the result is virtually indistinguishable from the sound of the unaltered analog signal.
Old 5 days ago
  #1757
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Interestingly, the only objective news (as opposed to the flowery language) in the Hifi News article is their pointing out that the frequency response accuracy is +/-2.1 dB, which is four times the Kii stated specs of +/- 0.5 dB (since I have never seen a speaker that measures +/- 0.5 dB the Kii specs always looked worthy of further investigation).

The Hifi News article also casts light on (one of) the point(s) of the BXT module, cfr. measured THD of 3.4% at 100 Hz.
A bit of cherry picking of their results. here's what they actually wrote:

Quote:
The benefits of an active crossover and utilising one dedicated amplifier per drive unit in place of a passive crossover network have been known for decades. But going no further than that is to squander so many possibilities, as the THREE demonstrates.

Its forward frequency response, measured at 1m on the tweeter axis [Graph 1, below], provides some evidence of this. It is, to within tight limits, flat, the response errors being ±2.1dB for both speakers, 300Hz-20kHz. Below 12kHz this reduces to ±1.1dB and in reality will be less because the ripples below 1kHz are an artefact of time-windowing the impulse response to remove room reflections. This isn’t quite the ±0.5dB that Kii Audio claims but it’s remarkable nonetheless, particularly as it’s achieved using generic equalisation plus careful driver matching, not by individually EQ-ing each loudspeaker.

Pair matching, over the same 300Hz-20kHz, is ±0.8dB, reducing to an astonishing ±0.3dB below 15kHz. Also astonishing is that the response really does reach down to 20Hz. Although our diffraction correction utility isn’t designed for use with such a speaker, our corrected nearfield measurements indicate a sub-20Hz bass extension (–6dB re. 200Hz).

At the lowest frequencies all four bass drivers operate in phase to share the excursion load but even so this bass extension will not be achievable at high output levels, which the DSP compensates for by raising the bass corner frequency. Above 50Hz, where the THREE is still omnidirectional, it quickly (within an octave) transitions to a cardioid polar response.While it would need an anechoic chamber or outdoor measurement to see this clearly, I performed off-axis measurements out to 90o using an Outline turntable which confirmed that up to 1kHz the response steps down progressively and remains almost as flat as claimed. The cumulative spectral decay waterfall [Graph 2] is also very clean, with little evidence of treble resonances
.
Old 5 days ago
  #1758
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midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by firedog View Post
A bit of cherry picking of their results. here's what they actually wrote:

.
this is obviously not what Kii themselves wrote. Source pls
Old 5 days ago
  #1759
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Strictly Stereo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by midmost View Post
this is obviously not what Kii themselves wrote. Source pls
Dropbox - HFN Aug Kii Audio Three Reprint LOW.pdf

See the "lab report" section. These are pseudo-anechoic measurements rather than true anechoic measurements and we know nothing about the noise floor of the room. I do not think these measurements demonstrate that Kii is fibbing about its own results. The January 2017 issue of Audio Xpress has some independently gathered anechoic measurements.
Old 5 days ago
  #1760
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by midmost View Post
this is obviously not what Kii themselves wrote. Source pls
if you are following the thread, it's a quote from the review that is being referenced. Maybe follow the thread before you demand a "source".
Old 5 days ago
  #1761
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midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by firedog View Post
if you are following the thread, it's a quote from the review that is being referenced. Maybe follow the thread before you demand a "source".
how old are you? 12?
I was asking for source in courtesy. I am following this thread but do you really expect me to know every post in 60 pages by heart?
Old 5 days ago
  #1762
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b0se's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupez View Post
Hey another interesting info here...which Amphion did you use?
I am on small Amphions with Sonarworks but I still miss some clarity / resolution at times.
I considered the bigger ones but I wonder if I would better be off with something else.

Care to comment on the main differences? thanks!
One15 + Amp100. It was too long ago for me to accurately convey the differences I heard at the time, memory is too flexible for that :¬)

I can say with confidence however that the Kii's were another level.

Be aware, that although the Sonarworks linear phase mode is very good (high latency unfortunately), a couple of users commented on phasing issues.
Old 5 days ago
  #1763
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strictly Stereo View Post
Dropbox - HFN Aug Kii Audio Three Reprint LOW.pdf

See the "lab report" section. These are pseudo-anechoic measurements rather than true anechoic measurements and we know nothing about the noise floor of the room. I do not think these measurements demonstrate that Kii is fibbing about its own results. The January 2017 issue of Audio Xpress has some independently gathered anechoic measurements.
You were quoting Audioxpress. Here’s the article:

http://www.audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2609

Does the frequency response curve look like +/- 0.5 dB to you?

Audioxpress describe the frequency curve as «relatively flat», which is not the same as +/- 0.5 dB (that would be a world record).

And if I may add: Why did Kii suddenly take away 10 dB worth of low frequency capacity from their official specs?

To me, it seems like (some of) Kii’s stated specs are from a computer simulation. And these computer generated simulation numbers do not always stand an empirical scrutiny.

Look, the Kii Threes are great speakers. Nobody questions that and everybody supports entrepreneurialism.

But I don’t understand why people are so hesitant to look at the official Kii Three specs with a dose a healthy skepticism.
Old 5 days ago
  #1764
Gear Head
 
Strictly Stereo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
You were quoting Audioxpress. Here’s the article:

http://www.audioxpress.com/files/attachment/2609

Does the frequency response curve look like +/- 0.5 dB to you?

Audioxpress describe the frequency curve as «relatively flat», which is not the same as +/- 0.5 dB (that would be a world record).

And if I may add: Why did Kii suddenly take away 10 dB worth of low frequency capacity from their official specs?

To me, it seems like (some of) Kii’s stated specs are from a computer simulation. And these computer generated simulation numbers do not always stand an empirical scrutiny.

Look, the Kii Threes are great speakers. Nobody questions that and everybody supports entrepreneurialism.

But I don’t understand why people are so hesitant to look at the official Kii Three specs with a dose a healthy skepticism.
Did I say that the Audio Xpress measurements showed +/-0.5dB? No. All I said is that these are independent anechoic measurements. The Audio Xpress measurements look more like +/-2dB from 40Hz up. It is not at all surprising that the Kii Three's bass rolls off below 40Hz in an anechoic space. My assumption is that some smoothing was applied to derive Kii's stated +/-0.5dB figure.

As for Kii's decision to revise its official specs for the Kii Three, my guess is that they de-tuned production speakers to extend the life of the components, but this is pure speculation. I have personally measured the Kii Three reproducing 20Hz in a real room (as opposed to an anechoic chamber) at normal to high listening levels, but in order to do this they need to be coupled to the front wall. This is an integral part of their design.
Old 5 days ago
  #1765
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strictly Stereo View Post
Did I say that the Audio Xpress measurements showed +/-0.5dB? No. All I said is that these are independent anechoic measurements. The Audio Xpress measurements look more like +/-2dB from 40Hz up. It is not at all surprising that the Kii Three's bass rolls off below 40Hz in an anechoic space. My assumption is that some smoothing was applied to derive Kii's stated +/-0.5dB figure.

As for Kii's decision to revise its official specs for the Kii Three, my guess is that they de-tuned production speakers to extend the life of the components, but this is pure speculation. I have personally measured the Kii Three reproducing 20Hz in a real room (as opposed to an anechoic chamber) at normal to high listening levels, but in order to do this they need to be coupled to the front wall. This is an integral part of their design.
Your in-room low frequency measurements has some room gain. Which is why anechoic LF specs look anemic.

Again, the Kiis are great but everyone profits if the forum is fact seeking and not a source of hype of the product du jour.
Old 5 days ago
  #1766
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Strictly Stereo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Your in-room low frequency measurements has some room gain. Which is why anechoic LF specs look anemic.

Again, the Kiis are great but everyone profits if the forum is fact seeking and not a source of hype of the product du jour.
It is because most of the low bass is directed out of the back of the speaker. In a real room, this is reflected back into the room. This is by design. In an anechoic chamber, it is absorbed by the front wall.
Old 5 days ago
  #1767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strictly Stereo View Post
It is because most of the low bass is directed out of the back of the speaker.
No. It is spherical which is equal dispersion front and back.
Old 5 days ago
  #1768
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Strictly Stereo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
No. It is spherical which is equal dispersion front and back.
I am not sure I follow you. I appreciate that low frequencies are considered to be omnidirectional and that sound waves are generated by the back of the drivers too, but with the cabinet, more drivers and electronics in the way, I would not expect to see perfectly even front to back dispersion.
Old 5 days ago
  #1769
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strictly Stereo View Post
It is because most of the low bass is directed out of the back of the speaker. In a real room, this is reflected back into the room. This is by design. In an anechoic chamber, it is absorbed by the front wall.
Strictlystereo,

you’re a seller of Tellurium Q cables. Quote from your web site on your Ultra Silver Power Cable, which is £1.680 per meter:

«Even cleaner, more focused and more agile sound than the award winning Black power cable with more precise bass definition and top end. Equipment sounds like there is more headroom and energy in the music.

New cable architecture including enhanced double layered screening have allowed a leap forward in performance».

Will this cable improve the Kii Three?
Old 5 days ago
  #1770
Gear Head
 
Strictly Stereo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post

Will this cable improve the Kii Three?
Absolutely not. For one thing, these cables will not fit the Kii Three, thanks to the overhang at the back.
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