The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Kii Three-Have you heard them? Studio Monitors
Old 6th April 2018
  #1501
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toa View Post
If there's little requirement for physical feel or loud volume levels then K3 will most likely provide more than ample response down to around 20 hz, at least that's the case for me.
I think this is a matter of defining what you want/need before deciding if small speakers like these can fulfill your expectations.

Fair point - Yes, you're right. At loud levels I've not measured due to umik-1 clipping, so there's a chance I'm only experiencing the response of my own ears.

Regardless of graphs, subjectively K3 to me will gradually decrease its level of linearity in the low end as volume level increases, and while doing so they appear softer both in the low end but also across the board. To me this experience describes the limits of dynamic headroom, but it could be a false assumption from my part.
Due to rated maximum output (115 dB) I suspect they are soft-clipping to avoid exploding, but I don't have the measurements to back up my findings.

Thankfully the dynamic headroom above deep bass frequencies are beyond the volume levels I'm comfortable listening at, so for me it's not a concern although it might be for some people.
Let's just add that I used to be sceptical against the Kii's. Even worse, when I purchased my ATC's, the Kii's stood right next to them. But I was biased. I never heard about that brand. I heard all the hype about ATC being among the best of the best. And so I did not give the KII's a fair chance. Of all the monitors we did test, I prefered the ATC's. The KII's were not included in the test pairs. And I regret that now.

Only later, after seeing everybody going wild about the KII's, I got convinced that maybe my prejudice had made me shoot in my own foot. But meanwhile I had already noticed that the ATC's, although being extremely precise in mid and high, were the ones with the least-deep lows of all. They quit around 42Hz and for EDM which that is just not deep enough. And so I got an Adam SUB15 which is set not that loud actually. As said, only to tell me who's home in the sub-40Hz range and it works quite well.

So when I decided to give the KII's a second chance, I caught myself being prejudiced again. After all, how on earth could these little stupid boxes compare with a 1000 Watt 100 pounds weighing bass-dedicated giant, right? No way these KII's would be tighter than my Sub.

Once we got into business with the KII's, well, let's say I felt bad. They may not go as loud as the ATC with the sub, but sure as hell loud enough to give you severe hearing damage. And in my opinion, they actually can replace the 1000Watt sub. They sound tighter. They just don't have that SPL but still, if I could do it all over again, I'd have KII's instead.
Old 6th April 2018
  #1502
Lives for gear
 
Ben F's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence_o View Post
Let's just add that I used to be sceptical against the Kii's. Even worse, when I purchased my ATC's, the Kii's stood right next to them. But I was biased. I never heard about that brand. I heard all the hype about ATC being among the best of the best. And so I did not give the KII's a fair chance. Of all the monitors we did test, I prefered the ATC's. The KII's were not included in the test pairs. And I regret that now.

Only later, after seeing everybody going wild about the KII's, I got convinced that maybe my prejudice had made me shoot in my own foot. But meanwhile I had already noticed that the ATC's, although being extremely precise in mid and high, were the ones with the least-deep lows of all. They quit around 42Hz and for EDM which that is just not deep enough. And so I got an Adam SUB15 which is set not that loud actually. As said, only to tell me who's home in the sub-40Hz range and it works quite well.

So when I decided to give the KII's a second chance, I caught myself being prejudiced again. After all, how on earth could these little stupid boxes compare with a 1000 Watt 100 pounds weighing bass-dedicated giant, right? No way these KII's would be tighter than my Sub.

Once we got into business with the KII's, well, let's say I felt bad. They may not go as loud as the ATC with the sub, but sure as hell loud enough to give you severe hearing damage. And in my opinion, they actually can replace the 1000Watt sub. They sound tighter. They just don't have that SPL but still, if I could do it all over again, I'd have KII's instead.
What model ATCs?
Old 6th April 2018
  #1503
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
Common sense would tell you that a speaker of that size can't go down to 20Hz.
That'ts what I thought. That's what I was convinced off. Untill I had them on test.
Old 6th April 2018
  #1504
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben f View Post
what model atcs?
scm45 pro
Old 6th April 2018
  #1505
Lives for gear
 
Switchcraft's Avatar
 

Yeah, I was on a path to buy ATC before found the Kiis. And yes, they absolutely go down to 20. The Kiis were the best purchase I ever made. After about two months of settling in to them, I no longer get any recalls. 0
Old 6th April 2018
  #1506
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchcraft View Post
Yeah, I was on a path to buy ATC before found the Kiis. And yes, they absolutely go down to 20. The Kiis were the best purchase I ever made. After about two months of settling in to them, I no longer get any recalls. 0
So that means you're not in for a trade?
Old 6th April 2018
  #1507
Lives for gear
 
Switchcraft's Avatar
 

ill give you my focal twin Bes and sub for your ATCs
Old 6th April 2018
  #1508
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchcraft View Post
ill give you my focal twin Bes and sub for your ATCs
Gee thanks bro! Seems like I'm in for the deal of my life
Old 6th April 2018
  #1509
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence_o View Post
Let's just add that I used to be sceptical against the Kii's. Even worse, when I purchased my ATC's, the Kii's stood right next to them. But I was biased. I never heard about that brand. I heard all the hype about ATC being among the best of the best. And so I did not give the KII's a fair chance. Of all the monitors we did test, I prefered the ATC's. The KII's were not included in the test pairs. And I regret that now.

Only later, after seeing everybody going wild about the KII's, I got convinced that maybe my prejudice had made me shoot in my own foot. But meanwhile I had already noticed that the ATC's, although being extremely precise in mid and high, were the ones with the least-deep lows of all. They quit around 42Hz and for EDM which that is just not deep enough. And so I got an Adam SUB15 which is set not that loud actually. As said, only to tell me who's home in the sub-40Hz range and it works quite well.

So when I decided to give the KII's a second chance, I caught myself being prejudiced again. After all, how on earth could these little stupid boxes compare with a 1000 Watt 100 pounds weighing bass-dedicated giant, right? No way these KII's would be tighter than my Sub.

Once we got into business with the KII's, well, let's say I felt bad. They may not go as loud as the ATC with the sub, but sure as hell loud enough to give you severe hearing damage. And in my opinion, they actually can replace the 1000Watt sub. They sound tighter. They just don't have that SPL but still, if I could do it all over again, I'd have KII's instead.
Was this recently or when they first released? I have a feeling there are different version of K3s floating around..
Old 6th April 2018
  #1510
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence_o View Post
scm45 pro
go and get some ATC SCM100 .. there you have all your desired EDM bass and they blow K3 out of the water
Old 6th April 2018
  #1511
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SashaGray View Post
go and get some ATC SCM100 .. there you have all your desired EDM bass and they blow K3 out of the water
Though true, they are also 6 times larger than the Kii3 and 152% the cost. There's room in monitoring options for all types/price-levels of speakers.
Old 6th April 2018
  #1512
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrscbw View Post
Was this recently or when they first released? I have a feeling there are different version of K3s floating around..
From what I have been told, there is only one version, but there have been firmware tweaks that have been made available for special use cases or to correct specific faults. A more comprehensive firmware update is due this Spring.
Old 6th April 2018
  #1513
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrscbw View Post
Was this recently or when they first released? I have a feeling there are different version of K3s floating around..
It was last summer so about 8 months ago I guess.
The software on these things is likely to get updates. The only issues I had with them was that we had to power one off/on because of some sort of processing delay between the 2. But that happened just once.
Old 6th April 2018
  #1514
Lives for gear
 
lawrence_o's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SashaGray View Post
go and get some ATC SCM100 .. there you have all your desired EDM bass and they blow K3 out of the water
I used to have SCM100's but pretty old ones. Sure they were great speakers.
But technology moves on. The Kii's stand up well against them with half the size.

Thing is the Kii's have this special bass dispersal pattern which no conventional cabinet can rival, no matter how good they are. The bass just gets delivered so much better. Even without room treatment they sound right.

If ever my government stops taxing the last cent out of my pocket, I am getting Kii's man :-)
Old 7th April 2018
  #1515
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence_o View Post
They may not go as loud as the ATC with the sub, but sure as hell loud enough to give you severe hearing damage. And in my opinion, they actually can replace the 1000Watt sub. They sound tighter. They just don't have that SPL but still, if I could do it all over again, I'd have KII's instead.
Haha, I feel quite the same way on all points. Also working with 90% electronic music here, hip hop included. Anyone who says that the Kiis aren't loud enough must be used to their monitors being at least 3 meters away...

Update on my resonating relay situation
As I stated in an earlier post, this is a resonating relay inside just one of my monitors.. I have already arranged a repair via Grace Design, and Alex there has already shipped me a loaner to use in the meantime.



The cabinet vibration is quite noticeable on both if you use a hand to touch the top panel, but the cabinet vibration shouldn't transfer if you isolate them properly. For a near-field setup on my desk (1.3m equidistant) I'm using urethane coated sorbothane domes from IsolateIt! and I'm really satisfied with how well they eliminate vibrations compared to the overpriced monitor stands or even a slab of heavy steel/concrete.

Last edited by Rasi; 7th April 2018 at 01:42 AM.. Reason: correct monitor distance
Old 7th April 2018
  #1516
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasi View Post
Anyone who says that the Kiis aren't loud enough must be used to their monitors being at least 3 meters away...
They don't put out enough sound at 2 meters away to do any standard Dolby film work (pre-dub stage.) I was looking at them for surrounds and as travelling (easy to transport) nearfields. Pop/rock/EDM/hip hop are all highly compressed dynamic range music (this is even pre-limiting/mastering/heavy compression.) Film work isn't compressed -- wind on a field or a whisper is very quiet and a sudden car crash can jump to 105 dBC. Film score work can reach the same dynamic levels. At 2 meters, you're at a useable 99 dBC from the Kii3. That gives you 24 dB max dynamic range if being generous in a small room and as little as 14 dB dynamic range if trying to demo at standard Dolby levels. What is needed is 20 dB dynamic range available (and preferably headroom of 3-6 dB above that so you aren't dealing with driver compression.)

As you can see, it's not just about being loud for being ear-splittingly loud but there are some formats that use more dynamic range. If you watch Netflix, for instance (so not even looking at movie-theater levels) and you tune your room to the correct numbers I've stated above (at a value of 85dBC =-20dBFs RMS pink noise (crest factor 13-15)), you can't use the Kii3 to hear the sound as it was intended at 2m. And if you did hear it as intended, it would not seem loud. But if you listened to mastered commercial EDM/pop/hip hop music at the same volume knob setting, it would seem very loud due to the compression and reduced dynamic range. Different sound types, different circumstances/demands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasi View Post
The cabinet vibration is quite noticeable on both if you use a hand to touch the top panel, but the cabinet vibration shouldn't transfer if you isolate them properly. For a near-field setup on my desk (1.3m equidistant) I'm using urethane coated sorbothane domes from IsolateIt! and I'm really satisfied with how well they eliminate vibrations compared to the overpriced monitor stands or even a slab of heavy steel/concrete.
If the cabinet is vibrating, it is generating sound (after all, sound from the speaker is just the movement of air created mechanically from a vibrating membrane.) Dampening/isolating the stand isn't stopping the cabinet surfaces from acting like any other membrane to the air around it. It is affecting the sound. It's also the reason why so much research for speaker makers is devoted to more rigid and braced/stable cabinet design. Isolation of the speaker from the stand obviously isn't capable of curing issues caused by the speaker to itself but only speaker to room and room to speaker.
I'm imagining this is one place the D&D 8C wins out since that speaker is already heavier at over twice the weight and made of traditionally/known reliable materials.

Last edited by pentagon; 7th April 2018 at 03:41 AM.. Reason: had some wrong numbers
Old 7th April 2018
  #1517
Lives for gear
 
Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
I'm imagining this is one place the D&D 8C wins out since that speaker is already heavier at over twice the weight and made of traditionally/known reliable materials.
The 8c's cabinets are indeed not vibrating to the touch at sound levels louder than my ears can handle (at +1 m listening distance), even when placed on wobbly stands. Their own mass combined with the anti-phase ports (basically and open back design of the mid/low woofers) must be helpful here. Also, the 8c's can play very loud and thunderous lows, easily down to 20Hz, with great clarity and control. Everything in the room starts to shake, windows, floor, as if you are using a seriously chunky subwoofer. In fact the entire back half of the 8c's is a subwoofer. Multiply by two and you get the picture. I have not heard the Kii 3's myself so I cannot compare directly. Based on what I read from Kii 3 users I expect the D&D's to be more capable in that area.
Old 8th April 2018
  #1518
Toa
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
If the cabinet is vibrating, it is generating sound (after all, sound from the speaker is just the movement of air created mechanically from a vibrating membrane.) Dampening/isolating the stand isn't stopping the cabinet surfaces from acting like any other membrane to the air around it. It is affecting the sound. It's also the reason why so much research for speaker makers is devoted to more rigid and braced/stable cabinet design. Isolation of the speaker from the stand obviously isn't capable of curing issues caused by the speaker to itself but only speaker to room and room to speaker.
I'm imagining this is one place the D&D 8C wins out since that speaker is already heavier at over twice the weight and made of traditionally/known reliable materials.
A vibrating cabinet is indeed making a sound, but how much is dependent on radiating surface, Q factor and frequency. A low Q factor in the low midrange might be worse than a narrow high Q factor in the high range.

Cabinet vibrations is one of these areas where we just need to measure distortion and listen for audibility to determine if the cabinet is adequate.
Given the lack of feedback on audibility combined with the feedback from macc in back to back testing with the Dutch 8c where he writes they sound almost exactly the same, I'm inclined to suggest this might be one of those theoretical concerns that just isn't really an issue in reality.

My theoretical concern is rather about the fact that all drivers share an open space. The crosstalk of that will certainly be more audible than the tiny THD created by vibrations of such a small cabinet.
While I certainly can see that the price of producing such an explosive package in so small a box means that you have to let go of other luxuries like separate chambers well enough isolated, it makes me curious about whether or not there's much gain to be had by going all-out on these theoretical issues.

So instead of asking if it's possible to get better performance, maybe we should be asking if better performance is possible within the same constraints?

*On a side-note; how impressive are the K3 considering this is the first effort from a brand new company with limited financial capacity?
Old 8th April 2018
  #1519
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toa View Post
Cabinet vibrations is one of these areas where we just need to measure distortion and listen for audibility to determine if the cabinet is adequate.
Given the lack of feedback on audibility combined with the feedback from macc in back to back testing with the Dutch 8c where he writes they sound almost exactly the same, I'm inclined to suggest this might be one of those theoretical concerns that just isn't really an issue in reality.
Should be mentioned that there are also many reports of people who don't think the K3's and the D&D's sound the same - or rather, that they share similarities, but still have some pronounced differences. A/B-listening can also be tricky. Our perceptual apparatus always plays tricks on us and the brain can fill in gaps etc when listening.

My hunch though would be that any such difference between the K3 and the D&D has less to do with the cabinet (but you never know), and more to do with the larger dynamic headroom and the larger radiating area on the front of the D&D.
Old 8th April 2018
  #1520
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toa View Post
A vibrating cabinet is indeed making a sound, but how much is dependent on radiating surface, Q factor and frequency. A low Q factor in the low midrange might be worse than a narrow high Q factor in the high range.

Cabinet vibrations is one of these areas where we just need to measure distortion and listen for audibility to determine if the cabinet is adequate.
Given the lack of feedback on audibility combined with the feedback from macc in back to back testing with the Dutch 8c where he writes they sound almost exactly the same, I'm inclined to suggest this might be one of those theoretical concerns that just isn't really an issue in reality.

My theoretical concern is rather about the fact that all drivers share an open space. The crosstalk of that will certainly be more audible than the tiny THD created by vibrations of such a small cabinet.
While I certainly can see that the price of producing such an explosive package in so small a box means that you have to let go of other luxuries like separate chambers well enough isolated, it makes me curious about whether or not there's much gain to be had by going all-out on these theoretical issues.

So instead of asking if it's possible to get better performance, maybe we should be asking if better performance is possible within the same constraints?

*On a side-note; how impressive are the K3 considering this is the first effort from a brand new company with limited financial capacity?
Nobody knows if the lively cabinet affects sound in absence of testing with and without this cabinet. We only know that a lively cabinet is not ideal even if this ideal may not be of any audible concern in a specific case.

You could machine out a cabinet from a single block of aluminium to make an alternative cabinet for A-B testing, but this is very costly. Some speaker manufacturers do this, however.

It would be great if Kii would comment on the lively cabinet because it has most probably been up for discussion during R&D.
Old 12th April 2018
  #1521
Gear Head
 

I'm a little disappointed that Kii haven't got up off their arses and replied so far. They really ought to, if they give a fu....
Old 12th April 2018
  #1522
Here for the gear
 

Well... they got caught red handed swapping specs. 10hz is a HUGE F**king deal, which is the main selling point for many. Equivalent to losing a subwoofer.

They initially published inaccurate specs upon release and now they are getting feedbacks from clients that are complaining about insufficient low end extension, so they are silently changing their specs on the website and user manual without telling anyone to try and cover up.

There's nothing they can do now to come back from this. Kii is patiently waiting for the storm to die down and hope we all forget about this.
Old 12th April 2018
  #1523
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloakn View Post
Well... they got caught red handed swapping specs. 10hz is a HUGE F**king deal, which is the main selling point for many. Equivalent to losing a subwoofer.

They initially published inaccurate specs upon release and now they are getting feedbacks from clients that are complaining about insufficient low end extension, so they are silently changing their specs on the website and user manual without telling anyone to try and cover up.

There's nothing they can do now to come back from this. Kii is patiently waiting for the storm to die down and hope we all forget about this.
How are your doing with that evidence of purchase you wanted to provide?
Old 12th April 2018
  #1524
Here for the gear
 

It's obvious that I own the speakers, why need to prove it? Waste of my time.
Old 12th April 2018
  #1525
Gear Nut
 

It’s obvious you don’t.
Old 12th April 2018
  #1526
Gear Head
 

I'll see if I can get something from one of the designers. FYI a Kii subwoofer will follow later this year that goes beneath the Kii3 basically converting it into a floorstander.
Old 12th April 2018
  #1527
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiosculpture12 View Post
It’s obvious you don’t.
Yup. Why lie in a forum like this? Really really weird.
Old 12th April 2018
  #1528
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiosculpture12 View Post
It’s obvious you don’t.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
Yup. Why lie in a forum like this? Really really weird.
What you have to say now? Who's the liar now.

How about you stop coming after me(genuinely angry customer) and go after the company that lied in front of everyone.

Enough said.

Last edited by Cloakn; 15th April 2018 at 12:31 AM..
Old 12th April 2018
  #1529
Gear Nut
 

I stand corrected!
Old 12th April 2018
  #1530
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump