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Kii Three-Have you heard them? Studio Monitors
Old 10th December 2015
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by explorer View Post
But the revolutionary Genelec 8351s have GLM and Acoustically Concealed Woofers and... ...oh sorry...
Acoustically non-concealed woofers would be more correct.
Old 10th December 2015
  #62
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I think their term was acoustically coaxial because the subs are not technically coaxial but they are acoustically so.
Old 10th December 2015
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlaws View Post
I think their term was acoustically coaxial because the subs are not technically coaxial but they are acoustically so.
Nope.
The 8351A combines our breakthrough Acoustically Concealed Woofers (ACW™) technology together with our Minimum Diffraction Coaxial (MDC™) driver and Maximised Directivity Control Waveguide (MaxDCW™) to produce controlled directivity over a very wide bandwidth. Genelec Loudspeaker Manager (GLM™ 2.0) computer control allows for repeatable, consistent performance over flexible proprietary network. Genelec AutoCal™ measures and automatically align every monitor on the network for level, timing, and equalisation of room response anomalies.

If you read carefully, they use a lot of TMd abbreviations (which is always a sign), and TWO of their "technologies" work the other way around.

1. The woofers are acoustically concealed - so you cannot hear them ?
2. Minimum Diffraction Coaxial - means there is no diffraction, so you get a lot of reflections and disturbed impulse response and frequency response ?

I just trademarked AnCWtm and MaxDCtm technologies 5 minutes ago.
Genelec can contact me to discuss finances


But the discussion is about Genelec - again.
I trust Genelec makes decent monitors these days. 20 years ago they sounded awful. Can they be truly highend ? I have my doubts.
I would trust Kii (with Bruno Putzeys) a lot more to give me a complete package, including top notch conversion and amplification.
Old 10th December 2015
  #64
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" If you read carefully, they use a lot of TMd abbreviations (which is always a sign), and TWO of their "technologies" work the other way around.

1. The woofers are acoustically concealed - so you cannot hear them ?
2. Minimum Diffraction Coaxial - means there is no diffraction, so you get a lot of reflections and disturbed impulse response and frequency response ?

I just trademarked AnCWtm and MaxDCtm technologies 5 minutes ago.
Genelec can contact me to discuss finances
"


1: It is 1000% clear you did not hear the 8351's. 2: The 8351's are probably not good enough for your skills so don't bother. 3: Great tone of voice in your writing.
Good luck with your trademarks. Stay nice and carry on!
Old 10th December 2015
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
[I]

1: It is 1000% clear you did not hear the 8351's. 2: The 8351's are probably not good enough for your skills so don't bother. 3: Great tone of voice in your writing.
Good luck with your trademarks. Stay nice and carry on!
I am very sorry, but I have a profound disliking of companies where there is a clear schism between PR and development.
Genelec have great, informative papers. It is beneath the level of their company to use the wrong terms in their PR babble.

I have indeed not heard them. Maybe I should, but the combination of what I remember from the past plus the technononsense makes me not inclined to do so. I am sorry for that, but that is how it works for me.

A last comment: it is truly my belief there is NOT ONE speaker or studio monitor that is good enough for OUR skills. Including yours.
Old 10th December 2015
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I am very sorry, but I have a profound disliking of companies where there is a clear schism between PR and development.
Genelec have great, informative papers. It is beneath the level of their company to use the wrong terms in their PR babble.

I have indeed not heard them. Maybe I should, but the combination of what I remember from the past plus the technononsense makes me not inclined to do so. I am sorry for that, but that is how it works for me.

A last comment: it is truly my belief there is NOT ONE speaker or studio monitor that is good enough for OUR skills. Including yours.
Ok. I agree that their marketing is a little off. Indeed their papers are great and so are the 8351. Whatever they call the revolutionary approach of hiding 2 racetrack woofers beneath aluminium, integrating the foamy "NASA tech looking" coaxial midrange/tweeter driver and the integration of these 4 drivers in an all aluminum enclosure with very advanced DSP room calibration for optimal translation off your mixes and masters.......

I don't care if the endresult is this fabulous for this price (+/- €6000,- inc TAX / +/- €4800,- ex TAX).
But my apologies for hijacking this thread. again..
Old 10th December 2015
  #67
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These sad ends of monitor speaker threads makes me to think to sell even the small genelecs I own at home.
Old 10th December 2015
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
These sad ends of monitor speaker threads makes me to think to sell even the small genelecs I own at home.
? Carry on! Who has the Kii's already and how do these translate?
Old 10th December 2015
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
? Carry on! Who has the Kii's already and how do these translate?
l wil not use kii at home.
Old 10th December 2015
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
l wil not use kii at home.
Ok good to know. But check this out. It doenst matter really

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6nlZhZlQsg

(ok sorry now i'm just f*cking with you)

Looking forward to read your review and first translation experiences of the Kii's. What color paint did you order? The color is totally customizable isn't? Is it also possible to have them in paint that is not glossy. The glossy paint finish really puts me off. Probably thats just me.

BTW Very respectable selection of gear you have. Love the EMT 251!

ps. Just finished another disco mix on the 8351's and translation is perfect on my iphone's speaker and in my cars B&O system These tools help me get better in mixing every day.
Old 10th December 2015
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
Ok good to know. But check this out. It doenst matter really

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6nlZhZlQsg

(ok sorry now i'm just f*cking with you)

Looking forward to read your review and first translation experiences of the Kii's. What color paint did you order? The color is totally customizable isn't? Is it also possible to have them in paint that is not glossy. The glossy paint finish really puts me off. Probably thats just me.

BTW Very respectable selection of gear you have. Love the EMT 251!

ps. Just finished another disco mix on the 8351's and translation is perfect on my iphone's speaker and in my cars B&O system These tools help me get better in mixing every day. Thats
Good for you I ordered white glossy it will fit to my sixties design studio and 251 is great but bx 25 is something magic !ps yes it it possible non glossy finish
Old 10th December 2015
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
1. The woofers are acoustically concealed - so you cannot hear them ?
These are some synonyms I found googling concealed = masked, hidden, camouflaged, guarded.

Why would that mean that you can not hear them?


Quote:
2. Minimum Diffraction Coaxial - means there is no diffraction, so you get a lot of reflections and disturbed impulse response and frequency response ?
Did you get that right?

Diffraction of sound waves means wraping around an object. If you'r sloppy with your design this diffraction can lead to edge diffraction which behaves just as reflections... messing up your frequency response and IR if you will. It's not like you remove diffraction and get "disturbed impulse response". Rather the other way around. And no matter how you twist it, a boxed speaker will always have diffraction since it is more or less omnipolar in the low range. If you dont want any diffraction you need to go in wall. But off course the sound will diffract around objects in your room when bouncing around.

Low frequency diffraction is not necessarily a big problem though since it does not (typically) translate into combfiltering and (what is basically) discrete reflections.
Old 13th January 2016
  #73
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any updates on hearing the Kii's ????
Old 13th January 2016
  #74
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Next week!
Old 13th January 2016
  #75
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Next week!
Yeah! Can't wait to have your impression!!!
Old 22nd January 2016
  #76
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On monday in my studio! I cannot wait!
Old 23rd January 2016
  #77
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No Genelec compares to the Neumann Kh310. Genelecs sound plastic, not natural. Neumanns are amazing!
Old 23rd January 2016
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom 33 View Post
No Genelec compares to the Neumann Kh310. Genelecs sound plastic, not natural. Neumanns are amazing!
awesome that you dig your 310s. Nothing as good as loving your monitors.
But I've owned 300's, worked on 310s, own ATC 25s and 150s - and genelec 8260's and 8351's don't deserve to be lumped in with the rest of the 8xxx lineup. (I might tend to agree with your comments if applied others in the 8xxx series).

The new Genelec 3 ways are unique and nothing about them sounds plastic.
Even though I'm selling my 8351's, it has nothing to do with how they sound. Just am so dialed in on the atc mid dome for so long now. But both the 8260 and 8351 are pretty special monitors.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #79
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For the Kii three I notice that the long term spl is quoted as 105 dB. I'm just wondering about room size limitations as a pair of mains - anyone know a rough formula for translating the quoted frequency range to varying room cubic volumes and listening distances? (Have emailed kiiaudio.com with room volume asking whether a pair would work without a sub and their recommended maximum listening distances).

Last edited by pibroch; 23rd January 2016 at 06:37 AM..
Old 23rd January 2016
  #80
Gear Nut
 

Had a listen to these. Most impressive. They sound much bigger than they are (were they hidden behind a screen, you'd easily think they were some large high-quality floor-stander), within the dynamic range limitation (they do run out of steam <50 Hz at what most would consider loud, but would be quite normal in an HT setup). Great imaging, very neutral to my ears. Were it not for a processing delay so long that they don't meet my requirements, I'd have a surround setup on the way.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pibroch View Post
For the Kii three I notice that the long term spl is quoted as 105 dB. I'm just wondering about room size limitations as a pair of mains - anyone know a rough formula for translating the quoted frequency range to varying room cubic volumes and listening distances? (Have emailed kiiaudio.com with room volume asking whether a pair would work without a sub and their recommended maximum listening distances).
I have quite small room and it shouldn't be problem I'm mixing at 80 db normally.They will be 2m (at about might be a bit more) far from me.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasher View Post
Had a listen to these. Most impressive. They sound much bigger than they are (were they hidden behind a screen, you'd easily think they were some large high-quality floor-stander), within the dynamic range limitation (they do run out of steam <50 Hz at what most would consider loud, but would be quite normal in an HT setup). Great imaging, very neutral to my ears. Were it not for a processing delay so long that they don't meet my requirements, I'd have a surround setup on the way.
What you mean by processing delay?
Old 23rd January 2016
  #83
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The speakers contains a DSP which takes some time to do the massaging of the signal. DSP = calculations, calculations takes some time.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
The speakers contains a DSP which takes some time to do the massaging of the signal. DSP = calculations, calculations takes some time.
So bare foots and new genelecs are out for you too? or were these much more noticeable ?
Old 23rd January 2016
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
The speakers contains a DSP which takes some time to do the massaging of the signal. DSP = calculations, calculations takes some time.
Even 8351 has the "delay" I guess nothing you would notice.I have of course heard KII. No problem with Kii at all with any hearable delay.

Last edited by carloff; 23rd January 2016 at 02:48 PM..
Old 23rd January 2016
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dance View Post
So bare foots and new genelecs are out for you too? or were these much more noticeable ?
I think rasher is the one to ask that. :-)

I just pointed out the fact that DSP is the reason for the delay that was being discussed.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #87
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Imagine mixing on a system with 1 second delay...

Editing on something with noticeable latency is already very uncomfertable, I hadn't thought until now that this could be a major drawback in DSP controlled monitoring.

Now I am curious how big the latency is in the Kii, and for the new Genelecs.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Diffraction of sound waves means wraping around an object. If you'r sloppy with your design this diffraction can lead to edge diffraction which behaves just as reflections... messing up your frequency response and IR if you will.
re. minimal diffraction design: as you describe above, you need controlled diffraction to avoid reflections. If you have a small box with edges, no or minimal diffraction de facto leads to reflections. Controlled diffraction or, could we say maximised diffraction, is the use or gentle radiuses and curves. Up to the point where the frequency gets too low, compared to the size of the enclosure or course.

My point is, the word diffraction has a negative ring to it, although we need the HF to bend around the edge, so we need diffraction. ie diffraction is good.

But everyone thinks about this interference graphs when you hear "diffraction".
So for the PR people the bad word "diffraction" should be minimized.

But would you describe the midrange unit of a B&W 802 as being low diffraction ?

I rest my case. Bad PR babble, bad image for such an important company in the audio world.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
Imagine mixing on a system with 1 second delay...
Yikes! And actually I have.. one of my computers have a bug that randomly changes the set latency for the audio interface. Instead of some 10ms all of a sudden I have 100ms or even 500ms. A bit distracting if I may say so.

Quote:
Now I am curious how big the latency is in the Kii, and for the new Genelecs.
I would be surprised if it's long enough to be a problem.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
re. minimal diffraction design: as you describe above, you need controlled diffraction to avoid reflections. If you have a small box with edges, no or minimal diffraction de facto leads to reflections. Controlled diffraction or, could we say maximised diffraction, is the use or gentle radiuses and curves. Up to the point where the frequency gets too low, compared to the size of the enclosure or course.

My point is, the word diffraction has a negative ring to it, although we need the HF to bend around the edge, so we need diffraction. ie diffraction is good.

But everyone thinks about this interference graphs when you hear "diffraction".
So for the PR people the bad word "diffraction" should be minimized.

But would you describe the midrange unit of a B&W 802 as being low diffraction ?

I rest my case. Bad PR babble, bad image for such an important company in the audio world.
Yea..

Low diffraction would be a huge baffle/in wall. Even if the box is well made so no significant edge reflections mess up the frequency response (and impulse response) there is diffraction going on. It's just a matter of which frequency.. at which point sound energy starts to diffract around the box to the sides and back.

A suitable radius on edges kind of turns discrete edge reflections into diffuse radiated energy. Maybe we can call it "smooth diffraction".. :-)

I guess I would not say that the B&W 802 is low diffraction.
The round shape does little (both outside and inside) when it comes to the midrange unit.
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