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Kii Three-Have you heard them? Studio Monitors
Old 7th December 2015
  #31
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
Did you really hear the 8351's calibrated with the GLM 2.0 kit? In your own room?
They are absolutely not in the same league as the KH 0300 according to my listening tests. Really no comparison in terms of 3D soundstage and full-range response. The Kii look interesting but lack the advanced 2nd generation GLM room correction software and the heritage of a company that is focused on making active studio monitors als mixing/mastering tools voor over 35 years.
I have heard them in with GLM 2.0 in distributors company listening room next to Neumann O310. Neumann was more analytic, Genelec was "nicer" and a bit more chemically sounding.Seemed to me like coloring somehow signal. But I could say both were probably in the same league. But I would take Neumann.Then I had in my room Neumann O310 and my KH ( I own Geithain also) and didn't find so drastic difference to worth upgrade to me. By simple logic - I liked a bit /really a bit/ more Neumann to Genelec . I didn't find reason to upgrade from KH to Neumann. So Genelecs to KH ( to me) not worth as well.

Kii is something totally different. When I first listened to them I was so blown away that immediately I started to think I must buy them. Really believe me -it is not typical case for me at all , especially with monitors. I'm very sceptic and sensitive about any kind of "hype" . I 've seen Barefoot, Amphion, now Genelecs hype.I listened to all of them. They are all good speakers and can serve to make good mixies.But all have their othings which I don't like .
Here are speakers I like more then this three written up above: Geithain, PSI , and especially Grimm LS1 with subs ( which I would love to have already but they are so bloody expensive)
Kii is something ultraexceptional - of course could be only for me ( which I don't believe after small talk with people whom listened to them)
BTW There is some room correction. There is a 16 position switch with a set of placement optimized parameters built in. It is broad strokes, but correction nonetheless.But basically there is active cardiodid bass.The Kii's aim is to eliminate the rear bass wave produced by the loudspeaker, but it can't and no loudspeaker can, eliminate standing waves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
You want to look at distortion from about 1khz to 10khz. My guess is that the ear would be most sensitive to it in that range.
Doesn't work that way. Keyword: Intermodulation.
Sound localization is due to primarily phase and amplitude. Below about 1000hz most localization is due to phase. We can hear a 12us difference between the two ears, this means phase is important. So, we are sensitive in theory to phase, and probably all loudspeakers today destroy phase information as they are not single point sources for all frequencies launched. Put speakers in a room and now we get delays for various frequencies bouncing about that we hear after the direct wave.We can a lot discuss about these points but that is not what the thread is about.
Old 8th December 2015
  #32
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Jantex's Avatar
 

I had O300, KH310 and now have Genelecs. There simply is no comparison between first two and Gens. Dynamics, unreal stereo image, clarity, depth and pinpoint phantom center. Something which Neumanns don't provide at all. Also low end is a whole different story. I believe there must have been something really wrong with acoustics of the room where you auditioned the speakers when stating they are the same class.
Old 8th December 2015
  #33
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I had O300, KH310 and now have Genelecs. There simply is no comparison between first two and Gens. Dynamics, unreal stereo image, clarity, depth and pinpoint phantom center. Something which Neumanns don't provide at all. Also low end is a whole different story. I believe there must have been something really wrong with acoustics of the room where you auditioned the speakers when stating they are the same class.
I have noticed your enthusiastic chiming posts about your genelecs in all 8351 threads.Unfortunatly I must disagree.Sounded to me a bit worse in translation than Neumann ( after 8 years with KH .KH and I guess also neumanns are very touchy about placement).I have a special CD for this purposes with mistakes in the mixies. Everything sounded very good and nice on genelecs unfortunatly and especially in upper mids I couldn´t recognise what is wrong and good.I could hear mistakes on neumanns though.I also had the bigger ones Genelecs 8260 in my own room with GLM.The same problem.Even my small Geithains were able to translate mistakes in upper mids much better. Also there is the same " coloring " and "chemical" feel. Really sorry.I know everybody will defend his own purchase from psychological point but I hear what I hear.After 15 years in business no need to play a games.

PS: I do own genelcs 8330 APM-PACK for my home composing studio. It is nice to write music on them.But would affraid to make a mixies.I also was mixing couple of albums on 1032 and 1031 long time ago (2004-2005). I was never friend of them on mixing, I had to bring ADAMS these days to finish these albums)))
Old 8th December 2015
  #34
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Avantmidi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I had O300, KH310 and now have Genelecs. There simply is no comparison between first two and Gens. Dynamics, unreal stereo image, clarity, depth and pinpoint phantom center. Something which Neumanns don't provide at all. Also low end is a whole different story. I believe there must have been something really wrong with acoustics of the room where you auditioned the speakers when stating they are the same class.
Agree. I really advice to listen to the 8351 with glm 2.0 again. Genelec is the market leader in professional monitoring with focus on studio mixing/mastering solutions. And again it shows. Really no comparison with 0300's/O310's.

The Kii must be great but for me the whole proposition is too much glossy, high-end consumer. Off course it is performance and translation that counts. And the specs of the Kii's are outstanding. Nevertheless I don't know what more to desire than the full-range, auto adapting near field monitoring system Genelec realized with the 8351's. Just perfect if you ask me.
Old 8th December 2015
  #35
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Avantmidi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
I have noticed your enthusiastic chiming posts about your genelecs in all 8351 threads.Unfortunatly I must disagree.Sounded to me a bit worse in translation than Neumann ( after 8 years with KH .KH and I guess also neumanns are very touchy about placement).I have a special CD for this purposes with mistakes in the mixies. Everything sounded very good and nice on genelecs unfortunatly and especially in upper mids I couldn´t recognise what is wrong and good.I could hear mistakes on neumanns though.I also had the bigger ones Genelecs 8250 in my own room with GLM.The same problem.Even my small Geithains were able to translate mistakes in upper mids much better. Also there is the same " coloring " and "chemical" feel. Really sorry.I know everybody will defend his own purchase from psychological point but I hear what I hear.After 15 years in business no need to play a games.
The 8250 are not bigger ones. Did you really try the 8351's?
Same enclosure sizewise. The 4 drivers and enclosed racetrack woofers make for a totally different animal. As does the midrange driver. Anyway. I appreciate your review and hope you will enjoy the Kii's every bit they deserve
Old 8th December 2015
  #36
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
The 8250 are not bigger ones. Did you really try the 8351's?
Same enclosure sizewise. The 4 drivers and enclosed racetrack woofers make for a totally different animal. As does the midrange driver. Anyway. I appreciate your review and hope you will enjoy the Kii's every bit they deserve
8260 sorry typo and yes I did. Might be they are a same enclosure I had not them side by side.8260 looked to me bigger.
Edit: Just looked to documentation they are))

Last edited by carloff; 8th December 2015 at 12:14 PM..
Old 8th December 2015
  #37
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
Agree. I really advice to listen to the 8351 with glm 2.0 again. Genelec is the market leader in professional monitoring with focus on studio mixing/mastering solutions. And again it shows. Really no comparison with 0300's/O310's.

The Kii must be great but for me the whole proposition is too much glossy, high-end consumer. Off course it is performance and translation that counts. And the specs of the Kii's are outstanding. Nevertheless I don't know what more to desire than the full-range, auto adapting near field monitoring system Genelec realized with the 8351's. Just perfect if you ask me.
I have nothing against 8351 , they are great monitors.I hope you will make a lot of great mixies with them.I simply had no reason to upgrade to them that is all.I have also Geithains, NS10 auralex in the studio( KH are sold now and waiting for Kii).None of the monitors says completly true, the truth is somewhere in between.

To Jantex and Avantmidi: Have you had KH in profesionally measured and constructed control room? If you have not measured and accustically built room then I could simply understand the advantages of GML and Genelecs .
Old 8th December 2015
  #38
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Avantmidi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
8260 sorry typo and yes I did. Might be they are a same enclosure I had not them side by side. 8650 looked to me tiny bigger

I guess you mean the 8260. These are much bigger. Not tiny. Remarkable how different points of view and hearing can change. Best of luck!
Old 8th December 2015
  #39
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avantmidi View Post
I guess you mean the 8260. These are much bigger. Not tiny. Remarkable how different points of view and hearing can change. Best of luck!
yes 20 cm difference . Remebered it well) The looked much bigger then my KH.I listened to them a year ago. 8351 in May.
Old 8th December 2015
  #40
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Hi Carloff, I have used KH O300 in a professionaly designed room for 4 years and KH310 for another year and half. They are great speakers, but far far below the Genelec quality. It was just upper and lower bass range that really suffered with KH/Neumann speakers. Also they were very slow speakers and closed up. Never sounded punchy but preaty lean. They sounded very chemical and not true to the source. Even pretty hard sounding instruments like brass and distorted guitars sounded very soft with them. Kick drums were big, but loose and lacked impact.

I always needed a pair of NS10s to complement them. Besides their stereo imaging really wasn't good. They lacked sharp definition of positioning in a horizontal plane and their center wasn't tight.

8351 is a whole different speaker and much better in any way. Same can be said about KH410 vs 8260. Simply no comparrison. I have had every monitor KH/Neumann produces, I have also sold 3 pairs of O300s and one pair of KH310 here at GS, because I have a pleasure of my great friend working as a representative for Neumann/Sennheiser for a pretty large area of southern Europe. So I definitely know their product line inside/out and have used it extensivelly.

KH310 are good speakers in their price point but there it stops IMHO.
Old 8th December 2015
  #41
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hi Carloff, I have used KH O300 in a professionaly designed room for 4 years and KH310 for another year and half. They are great speakers, but far far below the Genelec quality. It was just upper and lower bass range that really suffered with KH/Neumann speakers. Also they were very slow speakers and closed up. Never sounded punchy but preaty lean. They sounded very chemical and not true to the source. Even pretty hard sounding instruments like brass and distorted guitars sounded very soft with them. Kick drums were big, but loose and lacked impact.

I always needed a pair of NS10s to complement them. Besides their stereo imaging really wasn't good. They lacked sharp definition of positioning in a horizontal plane and their center wasn't tight.

8351 is a whole different speaker and much better in any way. Same can be said about KH410 vs 8260. Simply no comparrison. I have had every monitor KH/Neumann produces, I have also sold 3 pairs of O300s and one pair of KH310 here at GS, because I have a pleasure of my great friend working as a representative for Neumann/Sennheiser for a pretty large area of southern Europe. So I definitely know their product line inside/out and have used it extensivelly.

KH310 are good speakers in their price point but there it stops IMHO.
Hm If you would have professionally designed room , what is the advantage of GLM then?If it makes something important then it is room with problems .As I said I used to use 3 other speakers in stuido with KH. Had a bit problem to used to bass translation but worked pretty well then.But switching between different kinds of monitors is elementary thing for mixing.I do not expect that Kii will be holly grail which I will use as one pair of speakers from start to end.
If I didn´t like the Genelecs they of course could work for you.I don´t like how genelecs translating for whole my history of carrier. They are love or hate.For me hate for you love.No probs.8620 were really much worse to me than KH410 for example.KH had much more details, 8260 were impressive but I had no clue what is playing wrong or well.
Does it mean you are wrong? no. If it works for you then ok. Your ears.Your mixies. I hear what I hear.That is all

Last edited by carloff; 8th December 2015 at 07:20 PM..
Old 8th December 2015
  #42
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Yannick's Avatar
 

I do not want to fuel the discussion of genelec versus the kii, but one must realize that the kii is about 6-10K worth of highend amplification plus 2k worth of conversion.

That means the speaker actually costs nothing.

No way on earth the amps and converters in a genelec come close to what is inside a kii.
Old 8th December 2015
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
I do not want to fuel the discussion of genelec versus the kii, but one must realize that the kii is about 6-10K worth of highend amplification plus 2k worth of conversion.

That means the speaker actually costs nothing.

No way on earth the amps and converters in a genelec come close to what is inside a kii.
Not that I have any clue about the internals of the Genelecs but I'm curious about what you base your belief and numbers on.
Old 8th December 2015
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Not that I have any clue about the internals of the Genelecs but I'm curious about what you base your belief and numbers on.
6X 250W Hypex Ncore D class amps and 2x Grimm AD/DA with CC1 clock? 8000-12000,- easily
if you know names of REAL hi-end things like Kharma, Channel Islands, Meridian, Hexateq and Genesis Reference amplifiers.All built around Hypex Ncore
for example this http://www.innerearmag.com/reviews/a..._2point2.shtml
price for stereo amp 8000,-

Last edited by carloff; 8th December 2015 at 10:36 PM..
Old 8th December 2015
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
6X 250W Hypex Ncore D class amps and 2x Grimm AD/DA with CC1 clock? 8000-12000,- easily
I wonder what makes you or anybody think that they are better than the amps used by Genelec.

A product does not get good by using costly parts (not that I say that the Hypex modules are expensive) but by using the right part at the right place.

And don't get me started on expensive clocks which, if it's ever needed, is a confession of a poor converter design.
Old 8th December 2015
  #46
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
I wonder what makes you or anybody think that they are better than the amps used by Genelec.

A product does not get good by using costly parts (not that I say that the Hypex modules are expensive) but by using the right part at the right place.

And don't get me started on expensive clocks which, if it's ever needed, is a confession of a poor converter design.
We get to point which is quite funny. I could ask: "I wonder what makes you or anybody think that they are better than the amps used by Kii?"
something about Class D amps

"We know the wizard of Class D Bruno Putzeys as the engineer at Hypex. With to him good reason, Bruno does not believe in anything audiophile. If you can measure something it’s there and if it’s there you can measure it. That’s his credo. Now according to the Ncore® white paper, Bruno had dreamt up a new technology taking the proven UcD platform—Universal class D—by adding a load of improvements.With Ncore® Bruno went a step further in understanding how a self-oscillating circuit behaves mathematically. In this arena he is one of the very few who really grasps how these things work. This enhanced insight has led to improved large signal handling. Another improvement became the comparator where the PWM signal is created by means of comparing the input signal to the signal of a high-frequency triangular wave generator. Bruno moved the comparator’s behavior much closer to his theoretical model. Other improvements derive from further distortion reduction and a redesigned control loop that adds 20dB of gain whilst maintaining absolute stability. Not that we can fully grasp what’s going on with Ncore® even though the Hypex white paper explains these improvements in quite some detail. The bottom line which we do understand completely is that this power amplifier module is ultra linear, has noise and distortion levels that are next to non-existent to beat even the highest-quality class A or A/B amplifiers and on top of that can handle the most difficult loudspeaker loads due to ultra-low output impedance.Essentially on (the white) paper Ncore® technology promises (or threatens) to end all fun of audio reviewing. "

To be simple:Bruno is the genius - and is very famous in the world of Hi end audio and audio science.



Hypex modules are quite costy.To build one DIY amp costs 700 one amp at least.And this is only DIY. X 6 pieces
Try to think how much costs to make DIY 1176 and how much costs for example UA 1176. Compare.
Hypex Ncore NC400 Professional Build Service, On Time or Free Build

All digital stuff needs a clock.if it is good clock built in it is only good thing.What is expensive is ADDA . Grimm audio is very well known for great digital convertors and also very expensive.
Old 8th December 2015
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carloff View Post
We get to point which is quite funny. I could ask: "I wonder what makes you or anybody think that they are better than the amps used by Kii?"
something about Class D amps
Now you lost me, I asked a sincere question and you reply with a nonsense question? I never wrote anything about what I think about the parts inside these speakers, somebody else did and that made me interesteed about the background for the beliefs.

And what is it about class D amps? It's a bit hard to follow your writing.

Quote:
To be simple:Bruno is the genius - and is very well known in the world of Hi end audio and audio science.
Yes, I know Bruno is a top notch designer and I'm familiar with many of his and Hypex products.. but what has that to do with the question?

Quote:
Hypex modules are quite costy.To build one DIY amp costs 700 one amp at least.And this is DIY. X 6
Hypex Ncore NC400 Professional Build Service, On Time or Free Build
Again I'm not sure I get your point. I have Hypex modules on my shelfs here since years back but I don't understand what Hypex web shop prices has to do with a performance comparison/discussin between these speakers.

Quote:
All digital stuff needs a clock.if it is good clock built in it is only good thing.What is expensive is ADDA . Grimm audio is very well known for great digital convertors and also very expensive.
Thanks for the lesson, but with that you are arguing against yourself. Yannick use an expensive outboard clock as an argument to why the Kii speaker would be better or a better value than "Genelec".

EDIT: Sorry, not Yannick, carloff was the one mentioning outboard clock.

Last edited by Audiop; 8th December 2015 at 11:30 PM..
Old 8th December 2015
  #48
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Thanks for the lesson, but with that you are arguing against yourself. Yannick use an expensive outboard clock as an argument to why the Kii speaker would be better or a better value than "Genelec".
No , he doesn't say anything like this.
Yanick said:
Quote:
but one must realize that the kii is about 6-10K worth of highend amplification plus 2k worth of conversion.
No word about clock.He spoke about conversion.
or do you have a different gearslutz than me.?


Sorry I don't want to be rude, but this discussion led to nowhere.So I made a joke - if it seemed rude - please take my apollogies.

here is the article about D amps again:
"We know the wizard of Class D Bruno Putzeys as the engineer at Hypex. With to him good reason, Bruno does not believe in anything audiophile. If you can measure something it’s there and if it’s there you can measure it. That’s his credo. Now according to the Ncore® white paper, Bruno had dreamt up a new technology taking the proven UcD platform—Universal class D—by adding a load of improvements.With Ncore® Bruno went a step further in understanding how a self-oscillating circuit behaves mathematically. In this arena he is one of the very few who really grasps how these things work. This enhanced insight has led to improved large signal handling. Another improvement became the comparator where the PWM signal is created by means of comparing the input signal to the signal of a high-frequency triangular wave generator. Bruno moved the comparator’s behavior much closer to his theoretical model. Other improvements derive from further distortion reduction and a redesigned control loop that adds 20dB of gain whilst maintaining absolute stability. Not that we can fully grasp what’s going on with Ncore® even though the Hypex white paper explains these improvements in quite some detail. The bottom line which we do understand completely is that this power amplifier module is ultra linear, has noise and distortion levels that are next to non-existent to beat even the highest-quality class A or A/B amplifiers and on top of that can handle the most difficult loudspeaker loads due to ultra-low output impedance.Essentially on (the white) paper Ncore® technology promises (or threatens) to end all fun of audio reviewing. "


The discussion starts to be quite ruined.Again -I have nothing against Genelecs.But they are not the best speakers in the world.They are not religion , which it seems I'm just fighting with. Kii will be not the best speakers in the world as well.I have not problem with it. There are speakers 20X more expensive and 20x bigger and probably better.But I truly and honestly think , they are the best speakers in the market, usable as studio monitors I have possibility to check.(with Grimm LS1)And that is why I bought them.
But my friend for example makes great mixies on Behringer 2031.Why not. It works for him.I have not problem.

BTW.: It is quite uncomfortable how you my friend and Jantex exalt Genelecs in every thread about speakers . If you would be car dealers I would run away from your shop.It is counterproductive.I simply don't like them.And no I don't want them
peace

Last edited by carloff; 8th December 2015 at 11:50 PM..
Old 8th December 2015
  #49
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I edited my post before I saw your latest.

No I did not think you were rude, I just don't get your points and your question seem to imply that I defend or prefer Genelec or something like that, which is not the case. I'm totally neutral to both these companies.

About religion.. I'm not pushing or defending anything. If you feel religious, feel free.

I know that Bruno is a super good designer, I know that Genelec make super good speakers and I can see myself using both depending on the scenario.
Old 8th December 2015
  #50
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carloff's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
I edited my post before I saw your latest.

No I did not think you were rude, I just don't get your points and your question seem to imply that I defend or prefer Genelec or something like that, which is not the case. I'm totally neutral to both these companies.

About religion.. I'm not pushing or defending anything. If you feel religious, feel free.

I know that Bruno is a super good designer, I know that Genelec make super good speakers and I can see myself using both depending on the scenario.
No probs have a nice evening! peace.
Old 8th December 2015
  #51
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Old 9th December 2015
  #52
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I never mentioned Kii vecause I haven't heard them yet, but they of course should be great taking into account their high price.

GLM makes great sense in professional rooms. Every room design is a compromise and every speaker's deviation tolerances in FR are much lower than even those of professionally built rooms which still can have +/- 4dB deviation in their FR. In which case speaker's +/- 0,5 db deviations don't make much sense. GLM can help you achieve this in case you have a great room to begin with.

Last edited by Jantex; 9th December 2015 at 08:19 AM..
Old 9th December 2015
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I never mentioned Kii vecause I haven't heard them yet, but they of course should be great taking into account theit high price.

GLM makes great sense in professional rooms. Every room design is a compromise and every speaker's deviation tolerances in FR are much lower than even those of professionally built rooms which still can have +/- 4dB deviation in their FR. In which case speaker's +/- 0,5 db deviations don't make much sense. GLM can help you achieve this in you have a great room to begin with.
Did you do measurements to see the result of the GLM ?
Old 9th December 2015
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Did you do measurements to see the result of the GLM ?
Yes I did. Before setting them up, when I was looking for the best spot for them to eliminate possible dips due to SBIR and after setting them up (but before the calibration). Then I made additional measurements after calibration. All I can say is that results with GLM activated are impressive. Then I just slightly adjusted them to my personal taste.
Old 9th December 2015
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Yes I did. Before setting them up, when I was looking for the best spot for them to eliminate possible dips due to SBIR and after setting them up (but before the calibration). Then I made additional measurements after calibration. All I can say is that results with GLM activated are impressive. Then I just slightly adjusted them to my personal taste.
Thank you.

Did you use them verticaly or horizontaly ?

edit : I use K + H O300
Old 9th December 2015
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Thank you.

Did you use them verticaly or horizontaly ?
You are welcome. I am still using them....in a vertical position.
Old 9th December 2015
  #57
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My last question

The O300 clipped quickly without a sub. What about the Genelec ?

Thank you and good day
Old 9th December 2015
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
My last question

The O300 clipped quickly without a sub. What about the Genelec ?

Thank you and good day
Much more dynamic range and more headroom than O300. But that is also true for KH310 which improved in this aspect. But their distortion increases greatly with higher SPL, while Genelecs still play very clean.
Old 9th December 2015
  #59
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Can we not turn every monitor discussion into a Genelec one?
Old 9th December 2015
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbjp View Post
Can we not turn every monitor discussion into a Genelec one?
But the revolutionary Genelec 8351s have GLM and Acoustically Concealed Woofers and... ...oh sorry...
Topic:
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