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closest coloured summing box to the famous Neve sound
Old 3rd August 2016
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I find this statement startling. I listened to a similar test recently, and the difference between original and 10th copy was almost overwhelming. The final copy sounded like an exaggerated version of what poor converters always do to audio: Nasal, replete with added-on higher frequencies that were unrelated to the original audio (presumably aliasing), hollow, thin bass... The list goes on. Basically, it reminded me of the sound of my RME Multiface II on a *really* bad day.



Now you've lost me. You mean the analogue cables coloured the sound?
Startling is a good word for it and your description of the musical difference is spot on.

No surprise that many of the strangest Gearslutters are those with products to sell and Gearslutz users as their core target market.
Old 3rd August 2016
  #122
Tui
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Oh... I get it.
Old 3rd August 2016
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui View Post
I find this statement startling. I listened to a similar test recently, and the difference between original and 10th copy was almost overwhelming. The final copy sounded like an exaggerated version of what poor converters always do to audio: Nasal, replete with added-on higher frequencies that were unrelated to the original audio (presumably aliasing), hollow, thin bass... The list goes on. Basically, it reminded me of the sound of my RME Multiface II on a *really* bad day.

Now you've lost me. You mean the analogue cables coloured the sound?
Which test did you listen to? If you have a link I'd be happy to check it out. It's very possible we are referring to different tests.

When I said "many conversions" in my previous post I meant like 3 or so round trips. My first hand experience is using the Mytek converters in my studio so that's what I am basing my conclusions on.

And yes, my ears tell me that analog cables color sound. Everything does to some extent. What it comes down to is whether you care about those differences or whether they make a meaningful difference to your music-making process. At a certain point we all just accept that our tools are good enough and get on with it. I think that's what @ drBill was saying about his Avid converters.

Brad
Old 3rd August 2016
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
No surprise that many of the strangest Gearslutters are those with products to sell and Gearslutz users as their core target market.
I will not object to being strange. But like others here I have been a participant on this site for many years...well before I ever started making gear. I'd like to think that I'm still entitled to share my experiences and opinions regarding audio and recording just like everyone else. I believe my record of posts over the years (especially on the topic of summing boxes, converters, and cables...where I've often shared sound clips from tests I've done) is pretty consistent and I believe I've always participated in these discussions in an open-minded and respectful way in the hope of always learning and growing as someone interested in the recording arts.

I can appreciate the healthy dose of cynicism, but is it truly warranted? I think there's an interesting topic to discuss here as far as the value of summing boxes vs. just coloring your 2-bus. I'd even like to perform some tests and share the clips with the community here so we can have a good discussion about it. So I'd like to invite you to help me constructively brainstorm a way to setup up and execute such a test. I think it could be revealing for a lot of us.

Thoughts?

Brad
Old 3rd August 2016
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
No surprise that many of the strangest Gearslutters are those with products to sell and Gearslutz users as their core target market.
I don't think there's any shortage of strange gearslutters - but Brad and drBill, I would not put them in that camp.

In fact, in my dealings with them, they're about the straightest shooters I've encountered on this site.

Also, they go out of their way to explain everything about why and what they do - in ways that is unheard of. I'm no sucker, believe you me, and to say I've been totally satisfied using their products as well as dealing with Brad as a customer would be a colossal understatement - I couldn't have had a better experience.

...so unless you have some direct dealings with them, and you're speaking from a personal experience, while I fully understand your general cynicism, what you say rings very hollow to me. I'll go as far to say, if all audio gear developers were like them, the audio gear world would be a much better place.
Old 3rd August 2016
  #126
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I don't want my comment to be overinterpreted to be a slam at all against Brad or Bill personally or their product which I meant when I said it sounds cool.

You are more than entitled to your opinion on converters, summing, etc! But as Tui said both of you guys have startling conclusions about these. And because of the possibility that this stance lines up with selling your product - something I'm not clear on - I thought I'd point out the strangeness. Because I'm seeing this kind of strangeness frequently here, so I may or may not have a false positive in this case.

As far as your test idea Brad it sounds like a great one and I'd be game to assist with my Dangerous Converts. I would love to see intelligent and productive comparisons/discussions of all kinds...unfortunately it always seems to go the opposite way.
Old 3rd August 2016
  #127
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You can always do your own test and publish it to show your results and back up your personal claims which go against many respected engineers beliefs. I've done many of these in the past - especially HUUUGE mic shootouts. It does take time and effort, which is a lot harder than "words on the internet", and no doubt, you will get slammed for your efforts, but it's almost like a public service - everyone should do it at least once.
Old 4th August 2016
  #128
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
Which test did you listen to?
I'm afraid I can't remember exactly, but it was fairly recent and here on GS. There was no doubt about sonic degradation - unless the listener was totally inexperienced. The converters were of typical budget quality (not Behringer though, I don't think), consequently, even the first copy sounded terrible.

Bad converters always sound bad, yet, it is more noticeable with styles of music that feature acoustic instruments, such as classical, folk or jazz. I get a feeling (I'm not talking about you, I don't know your line of work) that a lot of people who assert they hear no or very little difference between converters/conversions use electronic sounds only, so they have no reference point for how music is supposed to sound. Many "musicians", these days, don't even play an instrument, in a traditional sense.
Old 4th August 2016
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
You can always do your own test and publish it to show your results and back up your personal claims which go against many respected engineers beliefs. I've done many of these in the past - especially HUUUGE mic shootouts. It does take time and effort, which is a lot harder than "words on the internet", and no doubt, you will get slammed for your efforts, but it's almost like a public service - everyone should do it at least once.
No good deed goes unpunished, you know!

What this industry needs is an impartial site to conduct standardized tests of all sorts of equipment. Like what ZenProAudio has done with Clipalator, but greatly expanded. You could probably run such a site on ad revenue alone. Maybe paid membership access would be part of the mix. The industry would grow hugely from it.
Old 4th August 2016
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
You are more than entitled to your opinion on converters, summing, etc! But as Tui said both of you guys have startling conclusions about these. And because of the possibility that this stance lines up with selling your product - something I'm not clear on - I thought I'd point out the strangeness. Because I'm seeing this kind of strangeness frequently here, so I may or may not have a false positive in this case.

As far as your test idea Brad it sounds like a great one and I'd be game to assist with my Dangerous Converts. I would love to see intelligent and productive comparisons/discussions of all kinds...unfortunately it always seems to go the opposite way.
I'd say it's the opinions/stances/conclusions I've formed over the years through making records and having discussions with folks on this site (like drBill) that have led to the creation of the products I've designed. It was one of those things where I thought "I need this thing and nobody is making it".

So which Dangerous box are you using? I'd love to figure out which summing box could serve as a reference example for such a test. Also, would 8 channels be acceptable, or is 16 required? And then the question that's really stumping me at the moment: how do you do the comparison in a way that doesn't favor one piece of gear over the other. I'd love to get some input on this.

thanks!
Brad
Old 4th August 2016
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
I'd say it's the opinions/stances/conclusions I've formed over the years through making records and having discussions with folks on this site (like drBill) that have led to the creation of the products I've designed. It was one of those things where I thought "I need this thing and nobody is making it".

So which Dangerous box are you using? I'd love to figure out which summing box could serve as a reference example for such a test. Also, would 8 channels be acceptable, or is 16 required? And then the question that's really stumping me at the moment: how do you do the comparison in a way that doesn't favor one piece of gear over the other. I'd love to get some input on this.

thanks!
Brad
Well the problem of course is that you need the same setup to compare - so the ADC has to be the same, the level calibration, even the cables as you point out. And no one has access to a broad enough level of gear except a dealer. This is why we're mostly stumbling around in the dark.

My Dangerous boxes are Converts. I think there have been good tests on summing boxes and my conclusion has been that none of them are all that great. To me the best sounding is the Folcrom with a great pre, hence why I suggested it earlier in this thread. In this I think my opinion might line up with you and Bill?
Old 4th August 2016
  #132
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergioelectro View Post
Thanks for the tip
I was really thinking about that unit the Rascal Audio Tonebus
Really bring noticeable modjo ?
Another vote for it, I owned one years ago, sold it, tried to go with all plugs, went back. Great piece of gear.
Old 4th August 2016
  #133
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I use a summing mixer and I know it makes a good difference, one of my reasons for using it is, that it allows me to use my outboard eq's and comps.

DA - COMP/EQ - SUMMING MIXER - AD/PRINT TRACK.

Also my summing mixer has a 2-Buss insert which I have a mixbuss comp inserted on.

The summing mixer I have is clean/wide/clear until pushed then it can thicken with distortion/color as the transformers are pushed.

I know for sure that summing makes a difference for the type of music I do. I hear more separation and space around the instrumentation/vocals. Everything seems more apparent and real.

You can't do a test with one summing mixer vs whatever box and say that's it, whatever box is better or summing is better. Yea might be better on that day, with that source material, in that room, with your ears.

I know nothing about this louder the lift box, this is the first I've heard of it. I did a quick search just to see an image of it. I just want to say I'm glad it's here and available. The more product options out there the better. There are so many existing and new companies coming out with new designs and repeat gear designs all the time. I consider that a good thing.
Old 19th August 2016
  #134
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Protooth's Avatar
I am not sure about VINTAGE NEVE sound, but I had access to 88rs for a while and I also have the RND 5060. To be honest, it does not sound the same, not even close....
Old 23rd August 2016
  #135
GCW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
I'd say it's the opinions/stances/conclusions I've formed over the years through making records and having discussions with folks on this site (like drBill) that have led to the creation of the products I've designed. It was one of those things where I thought "I need this thing and nobody is making it".

So which Dangerous box are you using? I'd love to figure out which summing box could serve as a reference example for such a test. Also, would 8 channels be acceptable, or is 16 required? And then the question that's really stumping me at the moment: how do you do the comparison in a way that doesn't favor one piece of gear over the other. I'd love to get some input on this.

thanks!
Brad
Wouldn't the most accurate way to do this test be:

1: Folcrom using the silver bullet as the makeup gain

2: The silver bullet on the same settings on it's own.

Would this be a direct comparison to see if adding the 16 channels together adds something?

I would find a test like this interesting!
Old 23rd August 2016
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCW View Post
Wouldn't the most accurate way to do this test be:

1: Folcrom using the silver bullet as the makeup gain

2: The silver bullet on the same settings on it's own.

Would this be a direct comparison to see if adding the 16 channels together adds something?

I would find a test like this interesting!
No that would test the quality of Silver Bullet's mic gain vs it's line gain, as I pointed out before.

If you want to test the summing of 16 channels vs. 2 that's dead easy. Simply instantly switch the routing of a 16 channel sum to only 2 channels and see if it sounds worse. It does, indisputably.
Old 23rd August 2016
  #137
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Nothing is indisputable. Just sayin'.....

As for the ITB test vs Fulcrum, sum ITB and drop the gain down 30 dB or however much it takes to match the output of the Fulcrum, then you can keep the gain settings the same. Done.
Old 24th August 2016
  #138
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCW View Post
Wouldn't the most accurate way to do this test be:

1: Folcrom using the silver bullet as the makeup gain

2: The silver bullet on the same settings on it's own.

Would this be a direct comparison to see if adding the 16 channels together adds something?

I would find a test like this interesting!
We could certainly do this..with any passive or active summing box. I'd find it interesting too.

To address @ RubbaDub 's concerns about the mic gain and line gain of the Silver Bullet potentially being different or having a different sound, we can easily send the DAW-summed mix into the mic inputs to keep all variables the same...as I think @ drBill was implying. Or we can send the Folcrom into the Mix inputs. Heck, we can do it both ways. The Silver Bullet doesn't care.

I think either of the above would allow us to fairly compare the multi-channel sum with Silver Bullet make-up gain to the 2-channel DAW-summed output processed by the same Silver Bullet settings. I'm game for seeing if we can hear any appreciable differences. I have an 8-channel passive summing box in my studio I can use. Any objections to 8-channels? Or does it have to be 16 channels?

Brad
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