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JBL LSR 708i vs Amphion One 18´s vs --what other should be mentioned?---
Old 25th November 2018
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
A good question. Extensive thought and research have gone in to this matter, so while it usually isn't presented as such, the truth is surprisingly simple. What is needed first and foremost, is a set of comprehensive, anechoic measurements. An accurate loudspeaker has a flat (neutral) direct sound. A single on axis curve has in recent times been replaced by an average of several curves in both the horizontal and vertical field since this shows us more information. A single on axis curve can display some irregularities which would not be very audible under normal circumstances and change/disappear as one moves slightly of the central axis.

The direct sound is the first sound to arrive at our ears so it's of critical importance. On a side note, this why 'Room EQ' systems rarely work out in anything but the bass range, it changes the direct sound of the loudspeaker, not a good thing (for a well designed loudspeaker).

Since loudspeakers radiate sound in all directions, as a function of time, more sound will arrive at our ears. In many cases, the sound radiated by a loudspeaker in the 60-75° horizontal off axis will be the second sound source to arrive at our ears. Humans are much more sensitive to horizontal reflecions than they are to vertical reflections, it's human anatomy - our ears are in the horizontal plane. Loudspeakers that behave poorly in the off-axis will benefit from damping or eliminating those early reflections altogether - an accurate loudspeaker will behave itself in this regard.

Finally we need the power response of a loudspeaker, an average of the sound radiated in all directions. From here a directivity index can be calculated. The narrower the dispersion, in general, the further we can listen before the reflected sounds dominate over the direct sound. The power response should also be smooth and free of directivity issues.

There a couple of formats to present this information. Polar plots are one options, the 'spinorama' method as designed by Floyd Toole of Harman is another.

Final factors are bass exension, overall SPL capabilities, distortion and deviations from linearity as one plays louder.

Based on this information, if you can find it or estimate these things from the available data - very few manufacturers offer it- it's pretty much possible to predict how a loudspeaker will measure and behave itself in room, above the Schroeder frequency of the room - usually above a couple of 100hz.

Phase issues/time alligning .. if these aspects are lacking they will show up in the frequency response of the loudspeaker. In general phase shifts are acceptable as long as they sum properly - humans are insensitive to phase in the absolute sense, as much as some would like to believe otherwise.
Point is> There are maybe hundreds, if not thousands of measurements that are not made, or at least, not published by manufactures. For instance, THD % spec is usually made at one freq point---usually in the mid-range, like 1k, where the THD of typical speakers is lowest at a given SPL level.

So, say THD of 0.5% @ 1k measured @ 96 SPL. But measure that @ 50hz at the same SPL and you might have 5-10% THD.

Also, THD is 'total harmonic distortion'. Different harmonics and their distortions sound different...you got the 2nd harmonics, 3rd harmonics, etc. They are all bunched together in a blanketed 'THD' spec. So to truly measure distortions, you need to do it at every freq point, SPL levels, every harmonics, etc.

This is why the freq response graph is very limiting in informing you how a speaker would sound/perform like, especially when they only publish only a THD spec--and at 1 freq point and 1 SPL level. It's actually not that hard for a manufacture to produce a flat response. Heck, you could do it on most speakers with very fine notch EQ's.

And even if ALL manufactures provided white paper style spec sheets of thousands of measurements, it would be 'their' measurements---not an independent 3rd party using the same measurement methods, rooms and tools.

AND! Even if that were done, I still don't think that would be the end-all to proving who has the 'most accurate' monitor. Because it's not possible to build a perfect monitor/speaker. Speaker design is a lot about trade-offs. Port design, or the lack of one is a prime example. There's pros/cons to sealed or bass-reflex systems. There's no right/wrong way answer there. And no amount of measuring will tell you which is more 'accurate', because it's subjective.

So to conclude> There is no 'accurate loudspeaker', otherwise, we'd all be using the same one in all recording studios. There's really only 'accurate' to the 'user'---meaning: Translation. This is of course in regards to the recording/mixing environment and getting your mixes to translate well elsewhere. That isn't an issue or need with home speakers, which tend to be tuned in a more mellow sense--which allows them to sound good with sources that might not be mixed so well, etc.
Hence my response to the poster to tread with caution with pro studio monitors in a home environment.

As an example, Pro studio monitors will chop you head off with a harsh/nasty mixed source---that is their job. But at home, you don't have a choice, and a more mellow turned speaker works better there. I even have home hifi speakers in my home set up.
Old 25th November 2018
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Measurements for the 4306 are not available for the public - I have asked my source at Harman some time ago. These and some others were designed in their Japan facility. A 3khz crossover for an 8" mid/bass driver seems too high in my opinion, a pity, as it is a beautiful looking speaker :-)
Your original statement; "Since the 7-series are also offered in JBL's "Synthesis" range -for the home"

So, not true then?
Old 25th November 2018
  #243
Gear Nut
 

Why would it not be true? I don’t see what one has to do with the other.
The 7 series is part of Synthesis packages and listed in synthesis price lists.
Old 25th November 2018
  #244
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Point is> There are maybe hundreds, if not thousands of measurements that are not made, or at least, not published by manufactures. For instance, THD % spec is usually made at one freq point---usually in the mid-range, like 1k, where the THD of typical speakers is lowest at a given SPL level.

So, say THD of 0.5% @ 1k measured @ 96 SPL. But measure that @ 50hz at the same SPL and you might have 5-10% THD.

Also, THD is 'total harmonic distortion'. Different harmonics and their distortions sound different...you got the 2nd harmonics, 3rd harmonics, etc. They are all bunched together in a blanketed 'THD' spec. So to truly measure distortions, you need to do it at every freq point, SPL levels, every harmonics, etc.

This is why the freq response graph is very limiting in informing you how a speaker would sound/perform like, especially when they only publish only a THD spec--and at 1 freq point and 1 SPL level. It's actually not that hard for a manufacture to produce a flat response. Heck, you could do it on most speakers with very fine notch EQ's.

And even if ALL manufactures provided white paper style spec sheets of thousands of measurements, it would be 'their' measurements---not an independent 3rd party using the same measurement methods, rooms and tools.

AND! Even if that were done, I still don't think that would be the end-all to proving who has the 'most accurate' monitor. Because it's not possible to build a perfect monitor/speaker. Speaker design is a lot about trade-offs. Port design, or the lack of one is a prime example. There's pros/cons to sealed or bass-reflex systems. There's no right/wrong way answer there. And no amount of measuring will tell you which is more 'accurate', because it's subjective.

So to conclude> There is no 'accurate loudspeaker', otherwise, we'd all be using the same one in all recording studios. There's really only 'accurate' to the 'user'---meaning: Translation. This is of course in regards to the recording/mixing environment and getting your mixes to translate well elsewhere. That isn't an issue or need with home speakers, which tend to be tuned in a more mellow sense--which allows them to sound good with sources that might not be mixed so well, etc.
Hence my response to the poster to tread with caution with pro studio monitors in a home environment.

As an example, Pro studio monitors will chop you head off with a harsh/nasty mixed source---that is their job. But at home, you don't have a choice, and a more mellow turned speaker works better there. I even have home hifi speakers in my home set up.
You should read Sound Reproduction by F. Toole. The result of decades of research. Sorry, but science > opinions. Loudspeaker design, in-room performance and listener preferences are well understood. The audio industry however is still full of opinions without a scientific base.

YouTube
Old 25th November 2018
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
You should read Sound Reproduction by F. Toole. The result of decades of research. Sorry, but science > opinions. Loudspeaker design, in-room performance and listener preferences are well understood. The audio industry however is still full of opinions without a scientific base.

YouTube
Science has yet to produce a totally accurate loudspeaker, or even the means to measure all of it's parameters.

Until then, it's still a subjective opinion in regards to which speaker is more 'accurate' than another overall.
Old 25th November 2018
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Why would it not be true? I don’t see what one has to do with the other.
The 7 series is part of Synthesis packages and listed in synthesis price lists.
Link?
Old 26th November 2018
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Link?
Old 26th November 2018
  #248
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Science has yet to produce a totally accurate loudspeaker, or even the means to measure all of it's parameters.

Until then, it's still a subjective opinion in regards to which speaker is more 'accurate' than another overall.
That's why double blind tests have been correlated to technical measurements over many years. It's not as subjective as you're assuming it is. Watch the video, read the book. In the end you can disagree if you have counter-research of your own. But, dismissing years of actual scientific research from the start because 'you know better' is silly.
Old 26th November 2018
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
That appears to be a dealer's price list? If so, this dealer sells the home hifi 'Synthesis' brand/models--and advertises it as such (with the banner), plus they're selling the 7-series, but that does not mean the 7-series is part of the synthesis 'package'.

Look at JBL's own 'Synthesis' page---there's no 7-series listed anywhere>

Loudspeakers - JBL Synthesis
Old 26th November 2018
  #250
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
That appears to be a dealer's price list? If so, this dealer sells the home hifi 'Synthesis' brand/models--and advertises it as such (with the banner), plus they're selling the 7-series, but that does not mean the 7-series is part of the synthesis 'package'.

Look at JBL's own 'Synthesis' page---there's no 7-series listed anywhere>

Loudspeakers - JBL Synthesis
The website is all over the place. I'm quite sure there are still packages with the M2 as well as the 708i. Synthesis systems can also be provided with custom requests, and it comes with installation and callibration. They're not cheap by any means ranging from the price of a car, to the price of a house.

"Designed for rooms from 1,000 to 7,000 cubic feet, the new JBL Synthesis LSR system is built around three LSR708i Master Reference Monitors used as left, center and right speakers. The LSR708i brings the studio-quality sound relied upon in film and broadcast production to home listeners. Featuring JBL’s new Image Control Waveguide and latest driver technologies, the LSR708i delivers remarkably accurate and immersive sound from an enclosure only 17 inches tall. The JBL Synthesis LSR system also includes the SDP-25, SDEC-3500, four JBL 8320 Compact Cinema Surround Speakers, plus two S2S-EX subwoofers, all driven by 7-channel SDA-7200 and 4-channel SDA-4600 power amplifiers."
Old 26th November 2018
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
That's why double blind tests have been correlated to technical measurements over many years. It's not as subjective as you're assuming it is. Watch the video, read the book. In the end you can disagree if you have counter-research of your own. But, dismissing years of actual scientific research from the start because 'you know better' is silly.
You're completely missing my point.

Let's try again.

I said> "Science has yet to produce a totally accurate loudspeaker, or even the means to measure all of it's parameters."

Either it has or it hasn't. I say it hasn't. Are you disagreeing with me on that? And if so, can you please post the model of this totally accurate loudspeaker?

And I said> "Until then, it's still a subjective opinion in regards to which speaker is more 'accurate' than another overall."

If we agree there's no such thing as a 'totally accurate loudspeaker', then that means that it comes down to subjective opinion on 'which' speaker is more accurate than 'another' speaker.

Here's the issue: There is no perfect accurate speaker to compare any other speaker to. When you say a speaker is 'accurate', accurate to what? It's impossible for a speaker to follow alternating current (in the speaker wire), perfectly. Physics don't allow it. Then one says---but it should sound as accurate to the source as possible! Ok, say a 3pc band recorded in a room. So, accurate to what the individual mics hear? Or what you ears hear in the room before they hit the mics? Accurate to the monitors in the control room? Which are different than your home hifi 'accurate' monitors?

Then look how the sound is being produced by that 3pc band---drums alone have multiple separate transducers tuned and design for specific jobs...say that 22" double headed kick drum, that 12" and 16" floor, the high tuned 14" snare, the hats, cymbals, then the gtr--with say a 4x12" cab, and the bass cab---maybe 6x10". And all of that is gonna be mixed down to come out of a pair of 8" woofers and 1" tweeters. You think that pair of monitors is ever gonna be accurate to that full band?

Bottom line is that there is no 'control' for an accurate monitor. We can not hear that line level signal or that amp level signal going to your monitor, w/o a transducer (speaker). And that line level signal has to be translated from a mic---usually many of them. We can't hear that mic w/o a speaker either.

Another main issue is that, again, speaker design is the art of compromise. A 3-way can be better OR worse than a 2-way, there's pros/cons to each design. Same difference between sealed or bass reflex. Sealed has a smoother low freq cut off, but that cut off starts way further up the freq range, while bass reflex tends to extend lower before a deep drop off. But one can tune each design to make up for some of those cons---usually at some expense of the pros. Point is, there's NO speaker that measures and performs better than any other speaker in ALL aspects. It might perform better in most aspects, but will have some aspects that other speakers do better on.

As an example---Some/many engineers here prefer sealed designs---they like their 'tightness' vs ported. They are willing to give up some of that low end extension for that tightness. Others are willing to give up some tightness for low end extension. Again, these are generalities (as ported designs can be tuned to sound pretty tight---but that tends to diminish the low end extension too).

Again, if it was as simple as picking the best spec'ing manufacture speaker measurement specs, or reviewer specs, to get the 'most accurate speaker', then there would not be hundreds of thousands of posts/threads on monitors/speakers here and in other sites. Nor would there be any audiofile magazine industry reviewing speakers. Everyone--from pros to consumers, would just buy the most accurate spec'd speaker and be done with it.
Old 26th November 2018
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
The website is all over the place. I'm quite sure there are still packages with the M2 as well as the 708i. Synthesis systems can also be provided with custom requests, and it comes with installation and callibration. They're not cheap by any means ranging from the price of a car, to the price of a house.
That was JBL's website.

I don't doubt a home theater dealer/custom installer can install whatever the customer/dealer wants. And that a dealer/installer can assemble a system of components they happen to promote as an ideal. Doesn't mean JBL marketed it that way.

The question was whether the pro 7-series is part of JBL's consumer Synthesis brand, which I could not find it was on JBL's Synthesis site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
"Designed for rooms from 1,000 to 7,000 cubic feet, the new JBL Synthesis LSR system is built around three LSR708i Master Reference Monitors used as left, center and right speakers. The LSR708i brings the studio-quality sound relied upon in film and broadcast production to home listeners. Featuring JBL’s new Image Control Waveguide and latest driver technologies, the LSR708i delivers remarkably accurate and immersive sound from an enclosure only 17 inches tall. The JBL Synthesis LSR system also includes the SDP-25, SDEC-3500, four JBL 8320 Compact Cinema Surround Speakers, plus two S2S-EX subwoofers, all driven by 7-channel SDA-7200 and 4-channel SDA-4600 power amplifiers."
Where did you get this from? JBL official or a dealer/installer?
Old 26th November 2018
  #253
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
You're completely missing my point.

Let's try again.

I said> "Science has yet to produce a totally accurate loudspeaker, or even the means to measure all of it's parameters."

Either it has or it hasn't. I say it hasn't. Are you disagreeing with me on that? And if so, can you please post the model of this totally accurate loudspeaker?

And I said> "Until then, it's still a subjective opinion in regards to which speaker is more 'accurate' than another overall."

If we agree there's no such thing as a 'totally accurate loudspeaker', then that means that it comes down to subjective opinion on 'which' speaker is more accurate than 'another' speaker.
In that respect, of course you're correct. Loudspeakers are used in actual rooms, so in the end, the signal we hear can never be the exact signal that leaves the loudspeaker. So what we can strive for is a neutral loudspeaker. And that was my original point. We must strive for loudspeakers that behave themselves, that produce both a neutral direct and reverberant sound field. Meaning a sound free from resonances and other corruptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Here's the issue: There is no perfect accurate speaker to compare any other speaker to. When you say a speaker is 'accurate', accurate to what? It's impossible for a speaker to follow alternating current (in the speaker wire), perfectly. Physics don't allow it. Then one says---but it should sound as accurate to the source as possible! Ok, say a 3pc band recorded in a room. So, accurate to what the individual mics hear? Or what you ears hear in the room before they hit the mics? Accurate to the monitors in the control room? Which are different than your home hifi 'accurate' monitors?

Then look how the sound is being produced by that 3pc band---drums alone have multiple separate transducers tuned and design for specific jobs...say that 22" double headed kick drum, that 12" and 16" floor, the high tuned 14" snare, the hats, cymbals, then the gtr--with say a 4x12" cab, and the bass cab---maybe 6x10". And all of that is gonna be mixed down to come out of a pair of 8" woofers and 1" tweeters. You think that pair of monitors is ever gonna be accurate to that full band?

Bottom line is that there is no 'control' for an accurate monitor. We can not hear that line level signal or that amp level signal going to your monitor, w/o a transducer (speaker). And that line level signal has to be translated from a mic---usually many of them. We can't hear that mic w/o a speaker either.
We need to start somewhere. Comprehensive measures are a very very good start as opposed to trying to wing it.



"The key in breaking the circle of confusion lies in the hands of the professional audio industry where the art is created. A meaningful standard that defined the quality and calibration of the loudspeaker and room would improve the quality and consistency of recordings. The same standard could then be applied to the playback of the recording in the consumer’s home or automobile. Finally, consumers would be able to hear the music as the artist intended."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Another main issue is that, again, speaker design is the art of compromise. A 3-way can be better OR worse than a 2-way, there's pros/cons to each design. Same difference between sealed or bass reflex. Sealed has a smoother low freq cut off, but that cut off starts way further up the freq range, while bass reflex tends to extend lower before a deep drop off. But one can tune each design to make up for some of those cons---usually at some expense of the pros. Point is, there's NO speaker that measures and performs better than any other speaker in ALL aspects. It might perform better in most aspects, but will have some aspects that other speakers do better on.

As an example---Some/many engineers here prefer sealed designs---they like their 'tightness' vs ported. They are willing to give up some of that low end extension for that tightness. Others are willing to give up some tightness for low end extension. Again, these are generalities (as ported designs can be tuned to sound pretty tight---but that tends to diminish the low end extension too).
Sure, a 3-way can be worse than a 2-way and vice-versa. It depends on the design goal and the competence of the designer. Bass corruption by the room is something else, and it happens in all rooms. The easiest way to tackle this issue is using multiple bass units accross the room to tackle the modes and keep seat-to-seat variation limited. Some EQ below a couple of hundred Hz is very much desirable. Luckily, in that range, what we measure is what we hear. We can pretty much read the steady state room curve and clear out the bumps without harming the sound. To tackle the nulls, it'll require proper placement and/or multiple bass units if you're trying to do so over a larger area. I like to keep my bass consistent across the room. Both bass-reflex and sealed systems can provide "tight" bass if implemented correctly - but the reality is that below that couple of hundred Hertz.. the room plays a big factor in how a speaker will sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Again, if it was as simple as picking the best spec'ing manufacture speaker measurement specs, or reviewer specs, to get the 'most accurate speaker', then there would not be hundreds of thousands of posts/threads on monitors/speakers here and in other sites. Nor would there be any audiofile magazine industry reviewing speakers. Everyone--from pros to consumers, would just buy the most accurate spec'd speaker and be done with it.
Well, remember it's still a business - and where's there's business there will be bias. I'm not brand dependent, I just enjoy the science behind creating good products. There's many good products out there. It's my belief that we should keep striving for better, using science and standard as guideline. Making sure what happens in the professional world improves what people will hear at home, and hopefully make them invest in good equipment as well, as to appreciate the art being created, isn't that what it's about?
Old 26th November 2018
  #254
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
That was JBL's website.

I don't doubt a home theater dealer/custom installer can install whatever the customer/dealer wants. And that a dealer/installer can assemble a system of components they happen to promote as an ideal. Doesn't mean JBL marketed it that way.

The question was whether the pro 7-series is part of JBL's consumer Synthesis brand, which I could not find it was on JBL's Synthesis site.



Where did you get this from? JBL official or a dealer/installer?

As expensive as the synthesis stuff is, the website is all over the place at times.
That also came from the synthesis site, although it was from a couple of years ago. Since the 7-series are still current it still holds up though.

The point is JBL is happy to place these things in homes, they are well designed loudspeakers. Better then some of their more expensive stuff in fact.
Old 26th November 2018
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
As expensive as the synthesis stuff is, the website is all over the place at times.
That also came from the synthesis site, although it was from a couple of years ago. Since the 7-series are still current it still holds up though.
Can you post the link that quote was from then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
The point is JBL is happy to place these things in homes, they are well designed loudspeakers. Better then some of their more expensive stuff in fact.
You had mentioned that the 7-series was part of the JBL's Synthesis line, and therefor the 7-series was designed to work in the home environment also.

I could not find the 7-series on JBL's consumer Synthesis site. I've also never seen 'Synthesis' mentioned in any of JBL's pro 7-series sites.

Hence the confusion.

Maybe some dealer/custom installer had commingled them both, but I've yet to see JBL do that.

??

Last edited by Fleaman; 26th November 2018 at 09:18 PM..
Old 26th November 2018
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
In that respect, of course you're correct. Loudspeakers are used in actual rooms, so in the end, the signal we hear can never be the exact signal that leaves the loudspeaker. So what we can strive for is a neutral loudspeaker. And that was my original point. We must strive for loudspeakers that behave themselves, that produce both a neutral direct and reverberant sound field. Meaning a sound free from resonances and other corruptions.
Again, not my point. My point is that to have a 'accurate' or 'neutral' speaker, you need to first determent what is 'accurate' and 'neutral'.

Meaning, what is your 'control'?? What exactly are you comparing to? 'Accurate' and 'Neutral' to what? Explain how you would test your accurate speaker against this control?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Sure, a 3-way can be worse than a 2-way and vice-versa. It depends on the design goal and the competence of the designer. Bass corruption by the room is something else, and it happens in all rooms. The easiest way to tackle this issue is using multiple bass units accross the room to tackle the modes and keep seat-to-seat variation limited. Some EQ below a couple of hundred Hz is very much desirable. Luckily, in that range, what we measure is what we hear. We can pretty much read the steady state room curve and clear out the bumps without harming the sound. To tackle the nulls, it'll require proper placement and/or multiple bass units if you're trying to do so over a larger area. I like to keep my bass consistent across the room. Both bass-reflex and sealed systems can provide "tight" bass if implemented correctly - but the reality is that below that couple of hundred Hertz.. the room plays a big factor in how a speaker will sound.
Missing my point again. I'm not talking about neutralizing/optimizing rooms. As an example, you can take say Mackie 824 monitors, optimize them for the room (acoustically and/or digitally), then do the same with say ATC 150 monitors. Will they sound they same as each other after optimizing in the same room? Of course not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Well, remember it's still a business - and where's there's business there will be bias. I'm not brand dependent, I just enjoy the science behind creating good products. There's many good products out there. It's my belief that we should keep striving for better, using science and standard as guideline. Making sure what happens in the professional world improves what people will hear at home, and hopefully make them invest in good equipment as well, as to appreciate the art being created, isn't that what it's about?
Again, not talking about 'Bias' per se. I'm talking about why we as humans are the final arbiter of what we consider to be an 'accurate' speaker. Because since there is no perfect totally accurate speaker, meaning, no 'control' to compare to, we are left with the human equation to subjectively answer that question. We can not spec and measure our way to that 'most accurate' speaker, we have to listen to it and judge. There's no getting around that. And that's why users/reviewers/professionals claim of 'this speaker is more accurate than another speaker' is made, it's just a subjective anecdote. Whether a pro reviewer makes it, you make it, or I make it.

Last edited by Fleaman; 26th November 2018 at 08:34 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 26th November 2018
  #257
Gear Nut
 

You may want to read up on this article from Sean Olive - Head of acoustic research at Harman.

Audio Musings by Sean Olive: Part 3 - Relationship between Loudspeaker Measurements and Listener Preferences

"It is both satisfying and reassuring to know that both trained and untrained listeners recognize and prefer accurate loudspeakers, and that the accuracy can be characterized with a set of comprehensive anechoic measurements."

The science is out there, I can only guide you towards it, but I'm not going to summarize a 300 page book for you (Sound Reproduction - F. Toole).
Old 26th November 2018
  #258
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Can you post the link that quote was from then?



You had mentioned that the 7-series was part of the JBL's Synthesis line, and therefor the 7-series was designed to work in the home environment also.

I could not find the 7-series on JBL's consumer Synthesis site. I've also never seen 'Synthesis' mentioned in any of JBL's pro 7-series sites.

Hence the confusion.

Maybe some dealer/custom installer had commingled them both, but I've yet to see JBL do that.

??
Newsdetail - JBL Synthesis
Old 26th November 2018
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post

"It is both satisfying and reassuring to know that both trained and untrained listeners recognize and prefer accurate loudspeakers, and that the accuracy can be characterized with a set of comprehensive anechoic measurements."

The science is out there, I can only guide you towards it, but I'm not going to summarize a 300 page book for you (Sound Reproduction - F. Toole).
That's his 'opinion'.

Again, if that opinion (which I assume you agree with) is true, then please advise which is the most accurate speaker based on such measurements?

Because according to you, it's just academic, right?
Old 26th November 2018
  #260
Gear Nut
 

My good man, when decades of scientific research have been performed, it becomes a little more than 'an opinion'.
And again, a neutral direct sound, well behaved off axis sound are all criteria for neutral loudspeakers. Which is best for you, depends on the listening distance, your needs in terms of SPL and your overall budget. The JBL LSR series are good, accurate loudspeakers, so is their M2 flagship. Genelec makes very nice products as well and the measurements on their latest S360 look superb. There's a relatively new brand called Buchardt Audio that post comprehensive measurements in their spec sheet, and they look very nice as well. The point is, it's not brand related (but in general - a brand either 'gets it' or they don't).

Faithful reproduction of the art requires a thorough scientific understanding of the relationship between the perception and measurement of sound so that the important variables can be identified. Most audio scientists agree that the circle-of-confusion problem will not be solved until we optimize the performance of the loudspeaker and its acoustical interaction with the room acoustics. Our scientific understanding of what makes a loudspeaker sound accurate and neutral is already well understood.

This research question was studied at the Canadian National Research Council (NRC)[2],[3]and more recently, at Harman International [4]-[6], the parent company of loudspeaker brands Infinity, Harman Kardon, JBL and Revel. Using scientific-based, double-blind loudspeaker listening tests, scientists studied which physical parameter of loudspeaker performance were most related to listeners’ sound quality ratings, and overall preference. To eliminate the effects of sighted biases (e.g. brand, price, size, reputation) the tests were performed double-blind with other known listening test nuisance variables carefully controlled. The loudspeaker positional effects in comparative loudspeaker tests were solved by an automated speaker shuffler that positions each speaker into the exact same position.The tests were performed using trained listeners with normal hearing. More recent tests with untrained listeners indicate they also prefer the same loudspeakers as trained listeners,but give less consistent and discriminating ratings.

The results of this research found that the preferred loudspeakers in the listening tests were also the most accurate ones,based on a set of a comprehensive anechoic measurements. The measurements used high frequency resolution (48 points per octave), and employed spatial averaging to separate resonances from diffraction/acoustic interference effects. The frequency response curves were then spatially averaged into a family of curves, based on a survey of user's set ups in their rooms, rooms that represent the quality of the direct, early and late reflected sounds heard in the room. A mathematical preference model based on these measurements has been recently developed and can predict the loudspeaker preference with a correlation of r = 0.86 (the agreement between the predicted and measured ratings of 70 different loudspeakers). The model tells us that both the quality of the direct and reflected sounds produced by the loudspeaker are almost equally as important, and the bass quality accounts for about 30% of a listeners’ loudspeaker preference. This suggests that the low frequency interaction between the loudspeaker and room acoustics is something that cannot be ignored.

The acoustical interaction between the loudspeaker and the room is the remaining problem that must be solved to close the loop between the creation and reproduction of the art. At low frequencies (below 200-300 Hz), all listening rooms contain a natural set of resonances or room modes that can significantly boost and attenuate low frequencies below 200-300 Hz [7]. The level and frequency of these resonances will depend on the room’s dimensions, geometry and absorption characteristics, as well as the locations of the loudspeakers and listeners.

Fortunately, there are solutions today that can deal with these low frequency variations that occur between the loudspeaker and its acoustical interaction with the room. Bass in rooms can be tamed by judiciously placing the loudspeakers and listeners in locations where the room modes have the least effect [8]. In rectangular rooms, placing multiple (2 to 4) subwoofers in the room’s corners, wall midpoints,or at 25% and 75% along the wall dimension can cancel order modes via constructive interference, and not excite others. This solution has the benefit of reducing the spatial variance in bass quality across the listening area. Finally, equalization at single or multiple seating locations avoid exiting othersreduce some of the most deleterious effects. However, not all commercial room correction solutions are equal: some models can actually make the audio system sound worse than without correction.

In summary, our scientific understanding of the relationship between the measurement and perception of loudspeakers and rooms is quite mature. Measurements exist today that can accurately and reliably predict loudspeaker sound quality, and there are practical and effective solutions for dealing with their acoustical interaction with listening rooms at low frequencies.

It's time for the audio industry to finally close the loop between the recording and playback chains - to break out of the circle of confusion. A meaningful standard that defines the performance of the playback chain where the art is both created and reproduced would certainly be good place to start. Work on a new loudspeaker standard based on the NRC and Harman loudspeaker measurements is underway within the CEA and CEDIA standards groups. When completed, consumers will have access to product specifications that identify the excellent loudspeakers from the ones that are duds. Hopefully, the professional audio industry will adopt a similar standard so that consumers hear the music as it was intended by the artist. That would be the ultimate reward for audio science in the service of art.
Old 26th November 2018
  #261
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
Thanks for the link.

Yes, the 7-Series is mentioned in that 2015 press release under the Synthesis banner, yet isn't listed anywhere else on that site as a Synthesis product.

There are pro audio monitors that I would feel fine with in a home environment, but as a whole, with most of the ones I've had experience with--I would likely not enjoy as much in a home environment set up in with less-than-ideal sources (bad mixes, etc.).

I've not heard the 7-series, so I can't judge there. Only that I don't think pro audio recording/mixing monitors as a whole, equally translate well in a home set up.

But of course, that's just my opinion.
Old 26th November 2018
  #262
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
My good man, when decades of scientific research have been performed, it becomes a little more than 'an opinion'.
And again, a neutral direct sound, well behaved off axis sound are all criteria for neutral loudspeakers. Which is best for you, depends on the listening distance, your needs in terms of SPL and your overall budget. The JBL LSR series are good, accurate loudspeakers, so is their M2 flagship. Genelec makes very nice products as well and the measurements on their latest S360 look superb. There's a relatively new brand called Buchardt Audio that post comprehensive measurements in their spec sheet, and they look very nice as well. The point is, it's not brand related (but in general - a brand either 'gets it' or they don't).
You're mentioning specific measurements, not measurements as a 'whole'. We of course don't only hear a specific measurement here and there...we hear the loudspeaker as a 'whole' when listening to them.

I have JBL's LSR32. Yes, the are good monitors. Accurate? Well, that begs the question: Accurate compared to what? If you can answer that question, then please do, because I can not.

Again, you are avoiding my original questions I've posed. Like>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Again, if that opinion (which I assume you agree with) is true, then please advise which is the most accurate speaker based on such measurements?

Because according to you, it's just academic, right?"
??

AND>>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Again, not my point. My point is that to have a 'accurate' or 'neutral' speaker, you need to first determent what is 'accurate' and 'neutral'.

Meaning, what is your 'control'?? What exactly are you comparing to? 'Accurate' and 'Neutral' to what? Explain how you would test your accurate speaker against this control?
??
Old 26th November 2018
  #263
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
My good man, when decades of scientific research have been performed, it becomes a little more than 'an opinion'.
And again, a neutral direct sound, well behaved off axis sound are all criteria for neutral loudspeakers. Which is best for you, depends on the listening distance, your needs in terms of SPL and your overall budget. The JBL LSR series are good, accurate loudspeakers, so is their M2 flagship. Genelec makes very nice products as well and the measurements on their latest S360 look superb. There's a relatively new brand called Buchardt Audio that post comprehensive measurements in their spec sheet, and they look very nice as well. The point is, it's not brand related (but in general - a brand either 'gets it' or they don't).
Can I ask a forward question? Are you a recording/mixing engineer? Or just an audio enthusiast on the consumer side?

I sincerely don't mean this as a sleight, but there are some audio/hifi enthusiasts on this forum--and that's fine, but the one thing they are missing is what the actual 'sources' really sound like. What the pure raw mic signal sounds like (albeit, translated through a monitor of course), what a band sounds like in a recording studio, what individual instruments sound like close mic'd and distant mic'd, etc. (again, after being translated through a studio monitor though).

I could be wrong (likely), but I get the feeling you're not actually a recording/mixing engineer?

Just curious....
Old 26th November 2018
  #264
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
It would be AWESOME to get back to the 708's, how people use of them, and their impressions. Especially in comparison to other speakers.

Personally, I found them to be a mind-blowing revelation compared to my JBL LSR8P's.
Old 26th November 2018
  #265
Gear Nut
 

I just told you. A flat direct sound field, without resonances, coupled to an equally well behaved off axis radiation pattern.
There is not one ‘best’ loudspeaker. Good loudspeakers however will measure and sound similar, yet can differ in areas such as directivity index, overall spl capabilities, bass extension, industrial design..

https://www.harman.com/sites/default...RoomsPt2_0.pdf
Old 26th November 2018
  #266
Gear Nut
 

I’m a hobbyist recorder, a hobbyist speaker designer and I play the French horn for a living. I’m well aware of the real thing.
Old 26th November 2018
  #267
Lives for gear
 
Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fhorn88 View Post
I just told you. A flat direct sound field, without resonances, coupled to an equally well behaved off axis radiation pattern.
There is not one ‘best’ loudspeaker. Good loudspeakers however will measure and sound similar, yet can differ in areas such as directivity index, overall spl capabilities, bass extension, industrial design..

https://www.harman.com/sites/default...RoomsPt2_0.pdf
Not what I asked.

If you don't want answer my direct questions, directly, that's fine.

That being said, and that every direct question I ask seems get a pivoted answer, I think I'll cue drBill's comment and tap out for now....otherwise this just seems to be stuck on the spin cycle...
Old 27th November 2018
  #268
Lives for gear
 
JblKid95's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
It would be AWESOME to get back to the 708's, how people use of them, and their impressions. Especially in comparison to other speakers.

Personally, I found them to be a mind-blowing revelation compared to my JBL LSR8P's.
I had them they were incredible. got rid of them because I didn’t want to have an amp any more to reduce space, plus trying new gear regularly to see what I like but yeah if they were in a room that I had to work in I’d be more than happy...
Old 27th November 2018
  #269
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IkennaFuNkEn View Post
I had them they were incredible. got rid of them because I didn’t want to have an amp any more to reduce space, plus trying new gear regularly to see what I like but yeah if they were in a room that I had to work in I’d be more than happy...

Maybe you should try the P's. Very happy with the powered versions here.....
Old 27th November 2018
  #270
Lives for gear
 
JblKid95's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Maybe you should try the P's. Very happy with the powered versions here.....
Might come back to them. Doing my three way rounds
Topic:
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