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AnaMod : ATS-1 Tape Simulator
Old 16th April 2011
  #1651
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

I should of said 'should be' rather than 'would be'. For one, I don't have the 102 card yet, for two everything is subjective, so it's a taste thing too of course.
Old 17th April 2011
  #1652
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There's this top end that I cannot EQ in because it does not exist. Some harmonic above 5k... i can't find it. Will the ATS (or real tape) add something which I can then boost in on the top end (the harmonic is somewhere between 6k and 112 k - some higher order harmonic. Trying to EQ in things which dont exist merely make the sound shrill.

Sonic Maximizers dont work, neither do harmonic maximizers.

Is this a phenomenon which requires condenser mics on guitar cabs? Or will the ats1 add some layer which can be boosted around this range that is some higher order hi-fi thing? (since an SM57 handles this range it has to work - otherwise, it is a limitation of the IR process?) Is the ATS not going to add anything to something which is a bit dull on the top end to begin with, or is it possible it might?
Old 17th April 2011
  #1653
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Was this harmonic your looking for there (in the room with the cabinet) during tracking?

Try a ribbon.

They take EQ easier too.
Old 17th April 2011
  #1654
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Here is the comparision:

The one to check out first is the clip at the bottom being the original clip to try to copy from a remix or the fear factory obsolete album but i know for a fact its the tone from the original record too... so i wanna use it as a reference.

The clip at the top is my attempt to clone it with an axe fx playing the same clip. (Signal chain is Axe FX through Eventide H8000FW as converter only with not processing other than the parametric EQs in the Axe FX only. As for the distortion, when I get more similar distortion after serious mods to the virtual amp internals, then the highs become more harsh - so with an ATS would that smooth that out? Because for my current use, I have to back down on the mods for some reason.

should I 1) throw in more highs on the axe and then hope the ATS1 smooths the highs in addition to interacting with those highs creating some new upper order harmonics? Or 2) should I should I go less shrill on the axe fx amp simulator and then run into the ATS 1 in hopes that it would add some upper order harmonics to those which I can shape later?

Tone_Cloner's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free (sorry bout the inaccurate playing - i can always match the exact EQ curve later in Harbal but first I am trying to get all the elements in place first from the source).

the signal chain of the original clip on that album is as follows according to the producer who emailed me back the following info from the best he remembers:

We did record everything to analog tape on a Studer A80 mkIII, I think on GP9 or 499.
It was mixed from 2" analog tape to 24 bit Digital & mastered from digital.
The guitars were tracked using original Neve 1081 preamp/eqs, no compression.
More eq was done during mixing using Neve outboard & maybe a touch of SSL on the 4k series.
Of course there was some fine tuning in mastering too.
Dino's head had a very distinct sound, esp the top end. I don't think I've heard a Marshall like that before. Too bad it was stolen.


next message:

No condenser mics,The 2 inch analog tape really makes a difference, & I have yet to hear a plugin replicate that sound, where if we had tracked to Pr Tools & kept it all digital, I think the high end would not have been as smooth in the cymbals & guitars.
We did test mixing down to 1/2 inch tape, but the digital retained the dynamics & attacks more, so we stayed with digital 2 track.
Regarding mastering, Ted Jensen at sterling did it, & he works with analog gear, so the chain would have been converted out to analog, through Maselec or Tube Tech comps, then a Sontec eq & back in through the Lavry AD122 Gold converter.

So my question is as follows:

From this crazy set of signal paths all the way to mastering, i am unclear on what is 1) gluing it together on the mids and top end and overall audio, 2) what is generating the over tone harmonics on the top end?

As for modelers, there is no other modeler that can come close regarding editability of the amps internals, but it is very tough to get that top end. and when i do get it very synthesizer like like that, then the highs become too harsh.
Old 17th April 2011
  #1655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
Was this harmonic your looking for there (in the room with the cabinet) during tracking?

Try a ribbon.

They take EQ easier too.
The harmonic i am looking for is heard in the second clip in the link above - possibly a harmonic, or possibly some airy kind of harmonic distortion. Above 5K. But its all gooey and hard to match with the Axe FX alone. Something else is needed. Not sure if the tape simulator is the answer. Would it smooth everything out and make it sound bigger in addition to doing something harmonically active to the top end?? But I know there are real pro bands using the axe fx for recording their albums direct, so I am thinking it has to. Be possible to get the highest end sound out of it with some other airind units.

Its just a simulator - Axe FX + Redwirez Impulse responses. Nothing is real. its all digital. And hence a possible limit to IR-based amp sims. But I can't notice a difference when I record my real marshall.... there is some kind of extra sizzle which I am not sure is in the mastering phase out of some multi-band compressor, or if its some EQ. Very tough to say. But then the gooienss is also another mystery in addition to that very top - top end on top of the other top end going on at around 5k as well.

(Sorry, dont mean to hijack a thread, but i need to know if the ATS1 will bring the clip in question closer to the original. Can I send somebody who owns one to see what it does? I am in Canada and the i shipping and customs stuff I do not think is refundable.)
Old 17th April 2011
  #1656
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steveschizoid's Avatar
T800, you gotta get your tone closer to the original. Sure the ATS-1 can smooth the top of a distorted guitar (just like a real Studer), but your sound is not close enough to what you're trying to copy. The ATS can make your sound edgier and/or more distorted as well, by the way, depending on what machine/tape formulation you're using, and how hard you hit it, and how you adjust the other controls...However, your distortion's upper mids are way lower pitched than his, and less responsive to what you're playing because you're using more distortion. Notice how you can hear the pick attack a lot better on his amp tone? I think you may have a tad too more low mids in your tone as well.

The original sounds like really thick strings played into a Marshall...one of my guitar students has an Axe-FX, and it strikes me as being pretty cool, but it may not be able to produce that particular tone. Especially since his amp was modded, and you probably have a different sound coming from your guitar.

I suspect the Axe Fx has basically made recording a pretty good guitar tone a lot easier, but I also suspect it will never deliver a great or truly unique tone. It is certainly by far the best amp simulator I've ever heard.

Will the ATS make it sound better? Probably so, but it can't make a french horn sound like a trombone!
Old 17th April 2011
  #1657
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Dude, sorry to disappoint but you are hoping one small variable will magically get you the thing you are looking for. There is much more to replicating a setup of instrument, player, picks, cable, amp, cabinet, mic(s), mix and mastering than using tape and a digital amp sim. Chances that the ats1 or any other tape sim will add what you are wishing for are very very slim. Imho the most important factors are amp, instrument, player and mic - not the Studer it was tracked on. Try to get as close as possible to the original by finding the right instrument and amp (sim) and amp settings. If you can't get really close to what you want this way, no tape trick will get you there.
Regarding your description "glued" guitar sound, this sounds to me like you are suffering from a common amp modeling phenomenon: too much bass and treble and a hole in the mids - the tone is not "one" but separated into lows mids and highs. I would try to roll off the bass and highs and look for the right spot in the mids that make the guitar sound "one" again. Done right this gives more "glue" to the guitar signal than any compression.
Good luck!
Flo
Old 18th April 2011
  #1658
Gear Addict
 

Hmm, well I dont want to spend too much time matching the EQ curve until the sound is right. Something is missing. But I will focus on getting the amp to sound proper first in terms of a more defined distortion. (very tought when down tuning like that). But I am just clarifying - so to my understanding, the ATS might add some overall warmth heat but might not glue that top end together? Or is this a main key ingredient to get closer to the target clone?

Still, if any one can share any electric guitar recordings (marshall style) with high gain - both with and without the unit processing the sound, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks
Old 19th April 2011
  #1659
Gear Addict
 

Some extreme super audio whiz (apparently) said that tape will add harmonics and therefore thicken up everything. Can anyone comment on this claim? Will tracking to tape add harmonics? Or processing through the Anamod ATS 1 analog tape simulator? (assuming it emulates tape accurately). Because this supposed audio expert claimed it will add even order harmonics and therefore will thicken things up and make it sound more clear too and also smooth the top end. Is this true?

And does the same go for using it on Impulse-Response-based simulators such as the ones mentioned above?

And will a converter like Prism Orpheus or Lavry add good stuff? Or are they just transparent?
Old 19th April 2011
  #1660
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
Some extreme super audio whiz (apparently) said that tape will add harmonics and therefore thicken up everything. Can anyone comment on this claim? Will tracking to tape add harmonics? Or processing through the Anamod ATS 1 analog tape simulator? (assuming it emulates tape accurately). Because this supposed audio expert claimed it will add even order harmonics and therefore will thicken things up and make it sound more clear too and also smooth the top end. Is this true?

And does the same go for using it on Impulse-Response-based simulators such as the ones mentioned above?

And will a converter like Prism Orpheus or Lavry add good stuff? Or are they just transparent?
Forget your dreams and fantasies about all those things fixing your specific problem. A new converter even less likely than tape. Your problem
is the source.
Old 19th April 2011
  #1661
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
Some extreme super audio whiz (apparently) said that tape will add harmonics and therefore thicken up everything.
That was my alter ego....he's such a prick. So he can hear the difference between 16KHz and 16.5 KHz....la tee da



Seriously though, you're looking at this in a rather self defeating fashion.

You're using a lot of essentially vague buzzword descriptions that are highly open to subjective interpretation - "glue" "thickness" "more clear" "smooth" - but you'll never know what the Anamod can do until you play with it yourself.

It is can be an education to try and reverse engineer a sound you like, but you have to realize the limitations you're operating under.

Even if you had the same guitar and amp (dialed in the same way) as was used in the recording you're trying to match, you'd have to recreate the signal chain from there onward to really nail the sound. You're reluctant to EQ, but you instead think you might get the sound from a converter ?! You do realize that EQ was used in the creation of that sound, right?

Even if you had all the same devices used, and somehow managed to put the mic in the exact same spot, and gain staged the recording the same way, using the same EQ... you probably still couldn't get the same tone, because tone actually has something to do with the way a musician plays!

Just find your own cool sounds and manipulate them as you will.

I love the Anamod, but I still have to work to get my recordings and mixes to sound great. It can have a somewhat magical impact on a given sound, but it's no substitute for experience, creativity and persistence.
Old 19th April 2011
  #1662
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by steveschizoid View Post


Seriously though, you're looking at this in a rather self defeating fashion.
If asking questions is self defeating, then i guess its time for me to pick a different field that does not believe this.

Quote:
You're using a lot of essentially vague buzzword descriptions that are highly open to subjective interpretation - "glue" "thickness" "more clear" "smooth" - but you'll never know what the Anamod can do until you play with it yourself.
This is not a fair response. Customs, Shipping, Etc - not worth it just to try out the unit.

Quote:
It is can be an education to try and reverse engineer a sound you like, but you have to realize the limitations you're operating under.
What limitations? IR-based simulation technology? Then it looks like there are two schools of thought, if that is what either is to be called - one which says there is no perceivable difference between the IR-based Axe FX compared to real mic recording, and the second which says there is an audible difference. Looks like both sides will have to present some hard facts before their claims can be accepted. It seems you lie on one end of the spectrum. Please share your reasoning.

Quote:
Even if you had the same guitar and amp (dialed in the same way) as was used in the recording you're trying to match, you'd have to recreate the signal chain from there onward to really nail the sound.
This is not out of the question, i have a major studio near me who can help with this. But if the Axe FX is the real deal, then some proper results should come about to get close enough if not exact.

Quote:
You're reluctant to EQ, but you instead think you might get the sound from a converter ?! You do realize that EQ was used in the creation of that sound, right?
And now you go inserting words into my mouth. Where did I say i was reluctant to EQ? Does the fact that I said I am not going to match the exact EQ curve with scopes yet indicate to you that I apply no EQ at all?

And where did I say or assume I'll get the main quality of the sound from the converter? I only asked if a top end converter will contribute and in what way.

Quote:
Even if you had all the same devices used, and somehow managed to put the mic in the exact same spot, and gain staged the recording the same way, using the same EQ... you probably still couldn't get the same tone, because tone actually has something to do with the way a musician plays!
No it doesn't, playing is in the musicians hands, tone is in the equipment.

Quote:
Just find your own cool sounds and manipulate them as you will.
I do that all the time. But even all the greats tried replicating their favorite tones. So please do not derail the valid quest to clone a tone.

Quote:
I love the Anamod, but I still have to work to get my recordings and mixes to sound great. It can have a somewhat magical impact on a given sound, but it's no substitute for experience, creativity and persistence.
What "magical impact" are you referring to? You tell me I use vague descriptions in a target sound in my questioning, but then you go ahead and use a word like magic to describe what this piece of gear does to the audio. Yeah, that's really homing in on your target!
Old 19th April 2011
  #1663
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steveschizoid's Avatar
Whatever man. This thread is about the Anamod, and several of us who have one have tried to help you out and answer your questions. Rock on.
Old 19th April 2011
  #1664
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heyman's Avatar
I would say that the Anamod does some nice things to the top end.. But dont buy the thing just for guitars. It is great on everything.. It is more of an incremental effect. 351 card is a must purchase..

Have to agree with previous posters.. It all starts with the player, the guitar, the amp, the room, the mics and the converters ..

Wish they made an 8 channel version.
Old 20th April 2011
  #1665
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by heyman View Post
I would say that the Anamod does some nice things to the top end.. But dont buy the thing just for guitars. It is great on everything.. It is more of an incremental effect. 351 card is a must purchase..

Have to agree with previous posters.. It all starts with the player, the guitar, the amp, the room, the mics and the converters ..

Wish they made an 8 channel version.
Does it add harmonics and hence pulling the signal more forward and clear?

The mics? But often cases a 70 dollar mic like a 57 is of more use than mics costing many times more. In any case, i am not using mics, I am using an Axe FX.
Old 20th April 2011
  #1666
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
Does it add harmonics and hence pulling the signal more forward and clear?

The mics? But often cases a 70 dollar mic like a 57 is of more use than mics costing many times more. In any case, i am not using mics, I am using an Axe FX.
dude, just post a 10 second wave file of a gtr part of yours and i'll run it through my ats1 w/ various settings and upload back here for you. that will answer most of your questions.
Old 20th April 2011
  #1667
Gear Addict
 

Ok, just wait a second... I did not realized my Eventide was not properly being terminated on the wordclock connection. I just added a t_connector for termination and I am noticing a huge difference now that I have properly terminated since the H8000FW does not self-terminate.

I'll still upload the clip soon.

But I was starting to think I was going to need a 10,000 dollar clock like they had in the studio of that recording. But i could be whining again soon. Will update tonight and post a new clip.
Old 20th April 2011
  #1668
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post

But I was starting to think I was going to need a 10,000 dollar clock like they had in the studio of that recording.
Before you do this let me advise you to first buy the 1.000.- pick, 6.000.- Instrument cable and 3.000.- micstand from me!
Old 20th April 2011
  #1669
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo View Post
Before you do this let me advise you to first buy the 1.000.- pick, 6.000.- Instrument cable and 3.000.- micstand from me!
Sure. And what specific soundcard would you have in mind, soundblaster?

I have learned that improper termination or lack of - of the word clock BNC cable can lead to a muddier signal.

Before you open your mouth to speak, please make sure you know what you are talking about first, otherwise it don't look too proper.
Old 21st April 2011
  #1670
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesicily View Post
dude, just post a 10 second wave file of a gtr part of yours and i'll run it through my ats1 w/ various settings and upload back here for you. that will answer most of your questions.
Ok, curious what it would do to my first clone attempt. I now enabled it to be downloadable. I have no idea how to upload onto here. Yeah i know its just an mp3 but i can still get a good idea.

Thanks
Old 27th April 2011
  #1671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
Ok, curious what it would do to my first clone attempt. I now enabled it to be downloadable. I have no idea how to upload onto here. Yeah i know its just an mp3 but i can still get a good idea.

Thanks
Do yourself a favor and email a wav file to the guy or if you're in the US you can just try it with a 10-day money back which will tell you what you need to know.
Old 27th April 2011
  #1672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Amels View Post
Do yourself a favor and email a wav file to the guy or if you're in the US you can just try it with a 10-day money back which will tell you what you need to know.
I agree, Dave. He can just add an attachment of a wave right here in this thread. I'm happy to process it and repost.
Sal
Old 3rd May 2011
  #1673
Gear Addict
 

Ok here is a file. there is 4 pieces of audio, the first is my new regular tone, the second is with with some nasty shrill highs added, the third is the same with a less intense spike at 5 k but still with the shrill upper end... and then the 4th is to see how fast the ATS compresses and punches with the regular tone to see what it does to the punchy palm mutes.

curious to see how the different cards would make this audio react, and what, if any even order harmonics would be added. and also sto see if that top end would be more glued together on the first and 4th clip.

the first and 4th piece of audio respectively are the key pieces, which i am very interested to see what the various cards would to to the audio and various frequencies. Curiosity has gotten the best of me and i have all sorts of people working on a financing plan if this is what i hope it to be.

thanks
Attached Files

ElectricATSTestA.wav (5.33 MB, 390 views)

Old 3rd May 2011
  #1674
Files

T800, I processed your file thru the ATS1 with several combinations. You'll find the machine/tape/ips info in the file names.
Mind you, there are tons of other combinations that could be done... 7.5ips, LF/HF tone control, bias, how hard or not you hit it... I hit it kinda hard, btw, so you could "hear" what it's doing in a more pronounced way. For all these examples, the bias and "tone" controls were left in default position.
The file you sent me was 16 bit, but I processed these at 24bit out of my Lynx Aurora, thru the ATS1 and back in thru a TI 4222 A/D.

Hope this helps.
Attached Files

351 gp9,30ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 361 views)

351,gp9,15ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 301 views)

351,456,30ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 275 views)

351,456,15ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 302 views)

351,111, 30ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 278 views)

351,111,15ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 291 views)

102,456,30ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 284 views)

102,456,15ips_01.wav (7.92 MB, 265 views)

102,111 30ips_02.wav (7.92 MB, 258 views)

102,111 15ips_02.wav (7.92 MB, 308 views)

Old 3rd May 2011
  #1675
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
sweet jesus.
dump that dfegad sounding amp simulator take the money and buy a real guitar rig.
Old 4th May 2011
  #1676
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Flying_Dutchman's Avatar
 

that´s the result of marketing, you can´t change it
it´s a pitty, but i don´t care anymore
peace
Old 4th May 2011
  #1677
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Oh my God. Whatever you do, don't buy an Anamod, you're a ways away from that being your next sonic tool.

Find a local studio that has an array of guitars and amp choices and collaborate with them. Don't work in isolation.

Work with skilled people who will share frank opinions.

- c
Old 4th May 2011
  #1678
Gear Addict
 

Thanks goes out to little sicily from Nashville.

To silver sonya, thanks for the insult. But if you think farting sounds are what define the type of electric guitar tones I am going for as you seem to imply, then I want nothing to do with it. Apparently you have not heard th original reference clip from the Obsolete album from Fear Factory and are not familiar with what constitutes cyber-metal-ist electric guitar tone or distortion.

To the rest, the objective was to go as synthetic sounding as possible. This is not the axe FX's main tones. Its the tone I had in my mind before modifying its internals quite very unorthodox-ly. Something certain people wouldn't understand. But it is fact a tone that I could not get any other simulator on the market for the last 5 years to sound like what I had in mind (first clip and last obviously, not the shrill ones). Only the Axe FX could be modified to sound that synthetic. If you think otherwise, please provide credible evidence.

But I find the critiques enjoyable to read nonetheless.
Old 4th May 2011
  #1679
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post
To the rest, the objective was to go as synthetic sounding as possible.
Yet the tone you're trying to copy is FAR from synthetic
Old 4th May 2011
  #1680
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superwack's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T800 View Post

..I have yet to hear a plugin replicate that sound...
You seemed to have overlooked this, the most important quote from the producer. AXE FX is a plugin and it will NOT get you the sound you are after... ever. I agree with the others that you'd be much better off with an actual marshall/mic/pre (neve 1081 as it's what they used) then go from there.

I know you are trying to capture the sound in your head but I listened to your .wav and, honestly thought it was one of the worst white-noise guitar sounds I have ever heard. But to each his own... before spending any more money google Slipperman's Recording Distorted Guitars from Hell - it's a step by step guide/podcast for capturing heavy, mind bending guitars + it's kinda fun - hope it helps

Last edited by superwack; 4th May 2011 at 08:14 AM.. Reason: trying to be nice(ish)
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