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Good Sub for ATC 100
Old 10th September 2015
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Good Sub for ATC 100

Hi . My Name is Eitan Reiter , and this is the 1st time I ask a question here on the Forum . I must say that over the years this forum has helped me a LOT ! so deep thanks to everyone who participate

I have just finished building my new studio (about 7 on 6 meters)
and I am using ATC 100 ( SCM100ASL Pro ) Speakers which for my needs are amazing

My problem is I still need a SUB to really hear everything the way I want to .
the room is treated pretty well acoustically and all my mixes turn out ok , yet I noticed that I actually hear less bass than there really is , so when I mix I always need to take that in consideration .

I contacted ATC and they say their 15 inch subwoofer (ATC SCM 0.1 -15) is the one that would fit . its just to expensive for me at the moment

I was thinking of 2 options that I can buy second hand at the moment

They are both 12 inch . .. should that be enough for a 7 by 6 room with ATC 100 ?


1 - Genelec 7070
2 - b&w asw 825 - and I can get that one for almost HALF of the Genelc price

Can anyone share their experiences with any of these ?

Here are photos of my room , incase that helps

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2796257&type=3

Thank you !
Old 10th September 2015
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Hi . My Name is Eitan Reiter , and this is the 1st time I ask a question here on the Forum . I must say that over the years this forum has helped me a LOT ! so deep thanks to everyone who participate

I have just finished building my new studio (about 7 on 6 meters)
and I am using ATC 100 ( SCM100ASL Pro ) Speakers which for my needs are amazing

My problem is I still need a SUB to really hear everything the way I want to .
the room is treated pretty well acoustically and all my mixes turn out ok , yet I noticed that I actually hear less bass than there really is , so when I mix I always need to take that in consideration .

I contacted ATC and they say their 15 inch subwoofer (ATC SCM 0.1 -15) is the one that would fit . its just to expensive for me at the moment

I was thinking of 2 options that I can buy second hand at the moment

They are both 12 inch . .. should that be enough for a 7 by 6 room with ATC 100 ?


1 - Genelec 7070
2 - b&w asw 825 - and I can get that one for almost HALF of the Genelc price

Can anyone share their experiences with any of these ?

Here are photos of my room , incase that helps

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2796257&type=3

Thank you !
Personally, I'd save up until I could afford the ATC. They are designed to work together. BUT I suspect the rooms is causing you more of an issue than you realise. Do you hear a lot more bass if you stand in the corners of the room?

There are no pics of the back wall of your room. How much treatment do you have on there? (I don't see much more than a handful of 3 or 4 inch thick panels elsewhere).
Old 10th September 2015
  #3
Here for the gear
 

Just checked . . . I do hear a bit more bass in the corners . . but that is true to the whole back of the room .
I am sure its not perfect at the moment , its not bad wither . been working with an acoustic advisor and been through a lot of tests when I placed the acoustics
to make the room sound better by brining some pro acoustic expert would coast now and get the right acoustics would probably coast as much as the sub

I will probably do that sometime in the future

anything you recommend trying in the room ?

as for the ATC sub , I really want it . . but its almost 3 times the price of the genelec one . . is it really worth the difference ?
Old 10th September 2015
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Just checked . . . I do hear a bit more bass in the corners . . but that is true to the whole back of the room .
I am sure its not perfect at the moment , its not bad wither . been working with an acoustic advisor and been through a lot of tests when I placed the acoustics
to make the room sound better by brining some pro acoustic expert would coast now and get the right acoustics would probably coast as much as the sub

I will probably do that sometime in the future

anything you recommend trying in the room ?

as for the ATC sub , I really want it . . but its almost 3 times the price of the genelec one . . is it really worth the difference ?
The speaker is worth the difference but only if your room can handle it. If you are already hearing increased bass along the whole back wall, I suspect you are only going to make matters worse by introducing any sub. I suspect that if you spend the money on treating the room properly, you won't actually need a sub. In some context, there is apprimately 1.5 m in treatment on the back wall of my room (plus diffusers). I have SCM110s and have never felt the need for a sub (and I work on everything from classical to EDM and hip hop.)
Old 10th September 2015
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
There are no pics of the back wall of your room. How much treatment do you have on there? (I don't see much more than a handful of 3 or 4 inch thick panels elsewhere).
In the front of the room I have 40 cm wide acustics for bass . .
and also some big bass traps on top and behind the speakers in the front corners
the only real absorption in the back of the room is a couch

in the 2 back corners I actually do not have anything at the moment
Old 10th September 2015
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
In the front of the room I have 40 cm wide acustics for bass . .
and also some big bass traps on top and behind the speakers in the front corners
the only real absorption in the back of the room is a couch

in the 2 back corners I actually do not have anything at the moment
Then your back walls and corners are the problem. Not the ATCs.
Old 10th September 2015
  #7
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Thanks Trev ! I am going to treat the back in the next few days . . .

I still do need that 20 to 50 sub frequencies , as I deal with music that has that .
I have heard really well built rooms with Atc 100 that still needed a sub to complete the picture .

still hoping to get some input from someone on the Genelec vs the b &w .or also if anyone has used the ATC sub and could compare to these 2 subs . I may even save up for that one if it makes a big difference
Old 10th September 2015
  #8
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Rami Hashash's Avatar
 

What Trev is saying is that you may not even need a sub (which could make matters a lot worse)

Figure out the acoustics first.
Old 10th September 2015
  #9
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Just checked . . . I do hear a bit more bass in the corners . . but that is true to the whole back of the room .
I am sure its not perfect at the moment , its not bad wither . been working with an acoustic advisor and been through a lot of tests when I placed the acoustics
to make the room sound better by brining some pro acoustic expert would coast now and get the right acoustics would probably coast as much as the sub

I will probably do that sometime in the future

anything you recommend trying in the room ?

as for the ATC sub , I really want it . . but its almost 3 times the price of the genelec one . . is it really worth the difference ?

I took a quick glance at your pictures and a few things come to mind.

Firstly, the speakers being mounted in the corner is far from ideal. The ATC 100's have a quite extended response, however, in keeping with ATC's design philosophy they are a low q design, which means they roll off earlier, but gentler in the bass, this can often lead to the accusation that they don't have much bass, they do, just not the thumpy stuff of some others.

The other issue is the room, it looks like you have a fairly low ceiling and I would hazard at a guess that along with the size will limit the frequency response you are able to achieve. In real terms you might get more bass with a sub, but not bass that is going to give you any useful information as to how your mix is actually working. This is a reason that many engineers still mix on small monitors.
Old 10th September 2015
  #10
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kosty's Avatar
Having a pair of SCM50 myself, I can tell you that speaker placement makes a really huge difference.

I have the following observations :

- The speakers are placed too far apart. Put them away from the back wall and corner (50cm minimum) and each more to the center. I know from experience that bass is reduced if my ATCs are placed in the corner.

- Swap the left and right speakers. The side where the tweeter and mid driver should be placed inside.

- Try putting them higher while slightly angling them down or try them upside down. The placement of the bass woofer in the vertical can have an impact on the bass in your room (although you should avoid putting the bass driver near the middle of the room height).

- Boost the low frequency in your monitoring chain. I have set up my Trinnov optimizer to boost everything below 200Hz by 2-3db to fit my personal taste and my room. It's way more fun !
Old 10th September 2015
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kosty View Post
- Swap the left and right speakers. The side where the tweeter and mid driver should be placed inside.
Are you sure its the only way to go ? I have seen studios in both ways
is that what ATC say ? they have even had a look at my room and actually did not mention that .
Old 10th September 2015
  #12
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Thanks Roland & Kosty . I must say I have tried sooo many locations and hights for the speakers before placeing them
so many diffrent options and to each option I have tried adding or removing more acoustics to the room it self .

Placing the speakers in the corners was the only way to make them produce bass actually . before I placed them there there was even LESS bass . . .
I guess I will treat the back of the room better and than try to locate the speakers in diffrent places again . . .

it doesn't get easy
Old 10th September 2015
  #13
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kosty's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Are you sure its the only way to go ? I have seen studios in both ways
is that what ATC say ? they have even had a look at my room and actually did not mention that .
It's written in the SCM25/50/100/150 manual on page 3 :

Quote:
Monitors with an asymmetric (offset) driver array should be positioned such that the midrange driver and tweeter are inboard.
It helps to focus the imaging especially in smaller rooms or if the speakers are not placed far away.

Of course there are exceptions depending on each individual room and ATC is using the word "should". The same for is valid for the height positioning of the acoustic center (mid dome).
Old 10th September 2015
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Are you sure its the only way to go ? I have seen studios in both ways
is that what ATC say ? they have even had a look at my room and actually did not mention that .
It is not the only way to go. In a smaller room it may make sense to have them on the inside. In a larger room, it may make sense to have them on the outside. It is dependent on the room size and listening position. Mine were custom made for the room with a sloped front to flush mount in the sloped soffit. They are on the inside.
Old 10th September 2015
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Ok , I will complete the room soon and try other ways to place the speakers
but right now I have 2 options of pretty good deals for these 2 subs . . and I would really like some info about them .

I should probably open a thread called Genelec 7070 Vs B&W asw 825
Old 11th September 2015
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Just checked . . . I do hear a bit more bass in the corners . . but that is true to the whole back of the room .
I am sure its not perfect at the moment , its not bad wither . been working with an acoustic advisor and been through a lot of tests when I placed the acoustics
to make the room sound better by brining some pro acoustic expert would coast now and get the right acoustics would probably coast as much as the sub

I will probably do that sometime in the future

anything you recommend trying in the room ?

as for the ATC sub , I really want it . . but its almost 3 times the price of the genelec one . . is it really worth the difference ?
Definately a null. You need to try and get the listening position 1/3 into the room not centre. Then get big fat bass traps a measurement mic and learn to use room eq wizard especially the real time analyser.
Old 11th September 2015
  #17
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Flush mount...........
Old 11th September 2015
  #18
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DirkB's Avatar
 

To the OP:

To get accurate bass response in the 20-100Hz (perhaps I should say 20-250Hz) area, you need at least one of the following:
- a well designed room where the speakers and the room work as an integral system. As pointed out already: large amounts of absorption and other ways to trap bass are required. We are talking above 10% of your empty CR shell volume to be added in trapping, easily.
- luck out that in some strange way your room happens to work (if it is a really large room like over 250m3 meters you might be lucky). If you are in a smaller room (anything under let's say under 125m3) chances are you are not... (lucky that is ;-).

Thing is, and you will truly understand once you have been exposed to someone who is a competent acoustics designer: a well designed room requires a professional to design it.
Yes, you can treat a room with absorbers and improve the situation, perhaps even to the point where you can get used to the room to get good mixing results.
However, true honest bass response (which by the way once you experience that is a thing of beauty to the ear) requires a well designed system.

So, to answer your question directly: from your reactions to the advice given, I suggest you save up for the ATC sub.
Then, ones that is in your room, my guess is your problems will not be solved, but do come back to this thread and read the advice again.

Best of luck,
Dirk
Old 14th September 2015
  #19
Here for the gear
 

Hi , So . . .
in the last 2 days I have been doing some tests . thanks to all of you I have decided to check everything that was talked about here

As Roland and Kosty Suggested ,

I have switched the left and the right speaker . . immediately there was more focus !
I than placed them each closer to each other and even a bit colser to where I set and away from the wall . . . helped a lot ! it did not work so well

and as Trev suggested - took some heavy absorption for the back of the room . there is almost NO boost there now

DirkB- I belive i had a lot of luck with the room , everything from 50 and up is really accurate . but I have decided to invest my money on a professional to do my acoustic . only thing is that in my country there are not that many good ones

now I actually have more bass . . except for a dip around the 60 . but to solve that I would really need a pro

What I think is left is to get a smaller desk . . I have a feeling that will help , cause I feel that HUGE peace of wood I have between the speakers and myself is not helping much . going to look into "Argosy halo " btw
and to than bring in a Pro to complete the room

once the room is done , I can carry with it another year and save up for the ATC sub .

Thanks everyone . this was very helpfull !
Old 14th September 2015
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Those ATCs go fairly loud if needed, which means that adding one octave of bass at the same level would require four times the woofer area (actually volume velocity) to be able to play at the same maximum SPL levels.

While Genelec 7070 is an excellent sub, I do not think it is nearly big enough to be paired with 12" monitors in a fairly large room. I have a 4x5 meter room with PMC IB2S monitors, and Genelec 7071A (twice the 7070) is big enough for that so that I can safely play massive organ music at 105 dB SPL.

Same thing goes for any sub, especially closed box designs with motion feedback and huge amps to force the poor woofer to flap around hard enough to actually produce useable amount of deep bass. For this reason 6th order bass reflexes like Genelec 707x series are better and less distorting. Laws of physics are merciless, for true low loud clean bass huge amount of woofer area with big excursion is needed, there is no way around it.
Old 15th September 2015
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Congrats on your new place and on some of the best monitors available. I agree with Trev, With what you already invested it would be counter productive imho to get anything less than the ATC sub.

With that said, while I've never used the the ATC sub, in general I've found subs to sound somewhat disconnected, compromising coherency. I frankly don't like them for critical monitoring. Maybe you could try repositioning the 100s to provide more noticeable bass. I would never consider the ATC 100s bass shy but highly accurate down to the rated 32Hz.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eitanreiter3 View Post
Hi . My Name is Eitan Reiter , and this is the 1st time I ask a question here on the Forum . I must say that over the years this forum has helped me a LOT ! so deep thanks to everyone who participate

I have just finished building my new studio (about 7 on 6 meters)
and I am using ATC 100 ( SCM100ASL Pro ) Speakers which for my needs are amazing

My problem is I still need a SUB to really hear everything the way I want to .
the room is treated pretty well acoustically and all my mixes turn out ok , yet I noticed that I actually hear less bass than there really is , so when I mix I always need to take that in consideration .

I contacted ATC and they say their 15 inch subwoofer (ATC SCM 0.1 -15) is the one that would fit . its just to expensive for me at the moment

I was thinking of 2 options that I can buy second hand at the moment

They are both 12 inch . .. should that be enough for a 7 by 6 room with ATC 100 ?


1 - Genelec 7070
2 - b&w asw 825 - and I can get that one for almost HALF of the Genelc price

Can anyone share their experiences with any of these ?

Here are photos of my room , incase that helps

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2796257&type=3

Thank you !
Old 15th September 2015
  #22
I'm using a pair of JL Audio F113's with my ATC 100 asl

I don't think it can get any better !
Old 15th September 2015
  #23
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Bag End
Old 15th September 2015
  #24
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanTan View Post
I'm using a pair of JL Audio F113's with my ATC 100 asl

I don't think it can get any better !
We supply JL subs to a few studios here with ATC150's...usually a f212 but 2 subs as mentioned above create less null points. 113's are great.
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