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Bricastiy M7 vs. Sony DRE-S777 Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 6th September 2015
  #1
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Rumi's Avatar
Bricasti M7 vs. Sony DRE-S777

Can anyone say something about this?
Acoustic music, real but not sterile sounding rooms.
Thanks!

(I've got: Bricasti, 480L, Model 200, System 6000, R-880, SRV-330, QRS-XL, PCM60, PCM70, DN780, Zoom 9200, SPX2000, V-Verb, SDR1000+, DRP15, DP/4, BX-20, BX-15, Tapco 4400, VRS-23, and the Great British Spring Reverb, as well as many plugin reverbs, and used to have the EMT 246, so feel free to use comparisons.)

Last edited by Rumi; 6th September 2015 at 11:46 PM..
Old 6th September 2015
  #2
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Impressive collection (we're probably the few that have a very large collection of reverbs).

The S777 doesn't really compare to any of the mentioned reverbs. The S777 have several different programs (on multiple CDs) with different mics (directional and omni), placement (in both x,y and z) and directions of the directional mics.

A location can therefor have multiple different programs - Ocean Way have 10 different programs etc.

Since the programs are located on CDs, you'll experience a loading time of 20-30 sec everytime you change preset/program. You can change the reverberation time (only shorter obviously), wet/dry volume and output EQ (this is not treble/bas reverb time found on algorithmic reverbs, but just a standard EQ at the output).

I made a small test: www.relab.dk/downloads/sound/S777.zip

Church : St. John LR9A (the placement with omni) - dry 0dB and wet 4.5dB - no EQ - RT 3.7 sec.
Studio : Ocean Way LR78 (the placement with omni) - dry 0dB and wet 0dB - no EQ - RT 1.3 sec.
Old 7th September 2015
  #3
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Thank you, Martin! The samples definitely sound good and unique! Awkward thing with the CD loading time...

Yes, after selling the EMT 246 because of the thought that ITB is now good enough, and trying to use only plugins for some years, I eventually took the opposite road, and bought a lot of hardware. Even the Behringer V-Verb sounds much better to me than most reverb plugins.

There are still some units I would like to test or have, namely the original QRS, the 2016, maybe the KSP-8, and the R7. And I will likely buy the DRE-S777.

I took a closer look at your forum... Have you had a chance to test the SDR1000, and if so, what do you think? It sounds rather dark and dense, but I haven't gotten a clear impression yet.

Thank you for your contribution to the reverb subculture thread! Even though I understand only part of it, it's moving to see how openly you guys share, and cool to learn about how you approach coding reverbs.

Sorry for the typo in the title, I can't seem to be able to change that.

Last edited by Rumi; 8th September 2015 at 11:37 AM..
Old 7th September 2015
  #4
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumi View Post
and trying to use only plugins for some years, I eventually took the opposite road, and bought a lot of hardware. Even the Behringer V-Verb sounds much better than most reverb plugins.
Owning a similar amount of hardware reverbs like you, I would like to ask you how you decide what is "(much) better"? Which plug in could be directly compared to the hardware except the Lexicon PCM Native with the PCM hardware? You won't find a hardware version of Spark or PhoenixVerb you could compare them to. I treat the better reverb plug ins as serious as hardware. And I still use some hardware reverbs because there are no plug in equivalents for the algorithms existing.
Old 7th September 2015
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumi View Post
The samples definitely sound good and unique! Awkward thing with the CD loading time...
I think it's unbeatable or at least at the very top for acoustic music, but for other genre (Rock/EDM etc.) it's not as usable. If you decide to get the unit - be very careful that you get as many CDs (programs) as possible WITH the memory card for each CD - if you don't get the memory card that accompany each CD it's unusable since it's the copy protection system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumi View Post
There are still some units I would like to test or have, namely the original QRS, the 2016, maybe the KSP-8, and the R7. And I will likely buy the DRE-S777.
Be very careful - I have bought several expensive hardware units the last 4 months - only 1 item out of 7 was 100% working even thou the sellers told they were working 100%. I have had rather expensive repairs lately.
Old 7th September 2015
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
Owning a similar amount of hardware reverbs like you, I would like to ask you how you decide what is "(much) better"?
Excellent question. It is obviously highly subjective when we talk about which metrics are most important in reverberation, but I personally value the metrics that are represented in some high-end units.

#1 - Envelopment (spaciousness, wideness, 3D etc). The feeling that the reverberation surrounds you from all sides - when you close your eyes and try to visualize the room/hall and you feel standing in a real room.

Same overall settings.

Hardware
Plugin

#2 - Realistic decay of the various frequencies vs buildup energy. Extremely few reverbs (both hardware and software) can manage this - only real halls.

#3 - The ability to reverberate low frequencies. In some cases it's obviously not desirable to have a lot of low freq content and it can of course be dialed back, but for realism you'll need to have low freq reverberation.

Same overall settings

Hardware
Plugin

#4 - All frequencies are represented in the reverberation - this is also related to #3 . In many plugins there're an uneven distribution of frequencies - some frequenices are missing in the reverb.

This is my personal opinion and others will respond differently. There exist both good and bad hardware and the above only represent a (small) subset of the hardware units. If you like the sound of a particular plugin reverb then it would almost be impossible to recreate the exact sound on hardware unit.
Old 7th September 2015
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
Owning a similar amount of hardware reverbs like you, I would like to ask you how you decide what is "(much) better"? Which plug in could be directly compared to the hardware except the Lexicon PCM Native with the PCM hardware? You won't find a hardware version of Spark or PhoenixVerb you could compare them to. I treat the better reverb plug ins as serious as hardware. And I still use some hardware reverbs because there are no plug in equivalents for the algorithms existing.
Sorry, I should have been more precise: this is totally unscientific and is simply based on my experience, and I have no intent to go into a „hardware vs software“ battle. In my experience, wih my abilities, on my system, hardware reverbs somehow often have a more organic, solid, spacious and grounded sound, whereas plugin reverbs often lack that. An exception in my experience is Nebula (70 small room, for example), and at times Valhalla.
Some examples: The IRCAM Verb Session most often sounds a little strange to me, Exponential Audio has some nice reverbs, but they are ethereal sounding and lack that solidity I described above, the PCM bundle as well as the NI reverbs I find bland, etc.
My comment about the V-Verb describes an experience where I got pretty frustrated with ITB reverbs, and then turned on the V-Verb, and there it was. I got a much more enveloping, interesting and convicing sound in a few minutes, after several hours ITB, with various plugins. That is my repeated experience with plugins vs. hw, for whatever reason.

As said, this is not scientific, and I can’t explain why 0’s and 1’s sound different when there is a metal box around them, and also don’t feel much inclination to prove my point. My hw reverb collection is the result of years of looking for the best sound. I definitely wouldn’t mind having an inexpensive plugin instead of an expensive box that might not be repairable if it breaks. For me that dream hasn’t come true yet.

Maybe today’s plugin developers are simply not interested in sounds I like.

I do like Valhalla, Nebula, UAD EMTs, and 2cAudio B2, and at times Spaces ITB. Hofa should be nice, but I haven’t tested it yet.
Old 7th September 2015
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Excellent question. It is obviously highly subjective when we talk about which metrics are most important in reverberation, but I personally value the metrics that are represented in some high-end units.

#1 - Envelopment (spaciousness, wideness, 3D etc). The feeling that the reverberation surrounds you from all sides - when you close your eyes and try to visualize the room/hall and you feel standing in a real room.

Same overall settings.

Hardware
Plugin

#2 - Realistic decay of the various frequencies vs buildup energy. Extremely few reverbs (both hardware and software) can manage this - only real halls.

#3 - The ability to reverberate low frequencies. In some cases it's obviously not desirable to have a lot of low freq content and it can of course be dialed back, but for realism you'll need to have low freq reverberation.

Same overall settings

Hardware
Plugin

#4 - All frequencies are represented in the reverberation - this is also related to #3 . In many plugins there're an uneven distribution of frequencies - some frequenices are missing in the reverb.

This is my personal opinion and others will respond differently. There exist both good and bad hardware and the above only represent a (small) subset of the hardware units. If you like the sound of a particular plugin reverb then it would almost be impossible to recreate the exact sound on hardware unit.
Ah, we're typing at the same time...

I agree with you (including about bad hardware), and your descriptions help me put my findings into words. I would add solidity / groundedness / organic "balls" to your list. A lot of plugin reverbs lack substance to my ears.

Your comment about low frequencies reminded me of the EMT246. I regularly put that on kick drum (I guess there is even a preset for kick drum in that box), which I hardly ever do with plugins, because it doesn't sound right. I have invested much good will to get that effect with the UAD Ocean Ways plugin, but it's not as convincing. The EMT made the kick drum punchy and very defined. I shouldn't have sold that 246.
Old 7th September 2015
  #9
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Rumi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
I think it's unbeatable or at least at the very top for acoustic music, but for other genre (Rock/EDM etc.) it's not as usable. If you decide to get the unit - be very careful that you get as many CDs (programs) as possible WITH the memory card for each CD - if you don't get the memory card that accompany each CD it's unusable since it's the copy protection system.



Be very careful - I have bought several expensive hardware units the last 4 months - only 1 item out of 7 was 100% working even thou the sellers told they were working 100%. I have had rather expensive repairs lately.
Thank you for your comments!

I do a lot of sparse folk music, and for that I need realistic spaces that don't sound bland. It seems to me that the Sony is a good unit for that. The one I'm looking at has all the CDs and the according memory stick, along with an additional memory stick that fits all CDs.

I have been lucky so far with repairs. I had to solder in a new battery in the Model 200, and its left LEDs don't work currently, but apart from that everything works pretty well.

Last edited by Rumi; 8th September 2015 at 11:42 AM..
Old 8th September 2015
  #10
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Martin, what is the hardware reverb under #3 (percussion sample)? It sounds cool!
Old 8th September 2015
  #11
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Quantec 2496
Old 8th September 2015
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Quantec 2496
Thank you! Maybe my list just got longer...
Do you know how different the 2496 sounds, compared to the original QRS and the QRS-XL?
I seem to prefer the somewhat grainy sound of the original over the smoother sound of the XL.
Old 8th September 2015
  #13
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I haven't heard QRS-XL, but I have the QRS and 2496 - and they're VERY different in sound. If you have a specific setting and source you want to hear as comparison, please send them to me.

Strange - this summer I was in Cern - we should have met.
Old 8th September 2015
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
I haven't heard QRS-XL, but I have the QRS and 2496 - and they're VERY different in sound. If you have a specific setting and source you want to hear as comparison, please send them to me.
Thank you very much for that offer! I will see if I find something that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Strange - this summer I was in Cern - we should have met.
Would be cool to meet! Please let me know next time you're in Switzerland!

Do you happen to know Sigi Welzenbach? He is currently working in the atom reactor industry, and he's the one who knows how to repair Quantecs, being one of the original developers. Sending a broken unit to Quantec doesn't seem to be a good idea, from what I have heard...
Sigi lives in the town my studio is located in, which makes it even easier. He has just repaired my XL (ah, yes, that was a recent repair, but it was probably me who damaged the unit, and I've had it since 1998 or so).
Old 8th September 2015
  #15
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I will buy the DRE-S777 today.
I'm looking forward to comparing it to the Bricasti!

After all these years, what seems most important to me, apart from good acoustics, good instruments, and good musicians, is mic placement, mic choice, reverbs, and mic pres, in that order. I use less and less EQs and compressors.

Last edited by Rumi; 8th September 2015 at 11:43 AM..
Old 8th September 2015
  #16
Here for the gear
 

Drs s777

Hi Rumi,
i have one for sale, if you are interested….
Old 8th September 2015
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioworker View Post
Hi Rumi,
i have one for sale, if you are interested….
Hi! I have just commited to buy one from Germany. But feel free to contact me via my studio website (www.pilgrimstudio.ch), I might still be interested.
Old 8th September 2015
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
I haven't heard QRS-XL, but I have the QRS and 2496 - and they're VERY different in sound. If you have a specific setting and source you want to hear as comparison, please send them to me.

Strange - this summer I was in Cern - we should have met.
Sigi spoke very highly of the 2496.
Old 8th September 2015
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioworker View Post
Hi Rumi,
i have one for sale, if you are interested….
Any chance you have DASK-S704?
Old 8th September 2015
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumi View Post
Sigi spoke very highly of the 2496.
So do I - it's a great reverb.
Old 8th September 2015
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Any chance you have DASK-S704?
Is that the one to sample stuff yourself? I am interested in that, too. I hope the license can be put on the "all access" memory stick, then we could share!
Old 8th September 2015
  #22
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Are the memory sticks used in the 777 still available?
Old 8th September 2015
  #23
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hey Rumi leave one Sony left for little ol Jo
Old 8th September 2015
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studjo View Post
hey Rumi leave one Sony left for little ol Jo
I do it all just for you! Let's check the unit out together when it arrives.
Old 8th September 2015
  #25
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Originally Posted by Rumi View Post
My comment about the V-Verb describes an experience where I got pretty frustrated with ITB reverbs, and then turned on the V-Verb, and there it was. I got a much more enveloping, interesting and convicing sound in a few minutes, after several hours ITB, with various plugins. That is my repeated experience with plugins vs. hw, for whatever reason
That's pretty much my experience as well.

I am very disappointed in most of the sw reverb and i am type of person which would definitely like to have exactly the same overall "effect" with plugins. I want to clarify that because i don't want people experience my opinion as hw snobbery thing because like i said - definitely it is not.

To tell you the truth i was really satisfied with V-Verb but knowing how people react to that brand i actually tried to "remake" presets and just sell it(i was under impression that it will die quickly). I tried to remake some of the V-verb halls with IK CSR (that was considered best itb reverb at that time) but overall plugin could not cut it and i really tried it.

I was able to completely redo some of the reverb algorithms from Yamaha RS7000 with Valhalla Room but then reverb in RS7000 groovebox is really simple.

There was a time i was really excited seeing UAD Lexicon and knowing how they can be detailed in their emulations so there it was - another disappointment. Apart from cool videos and all that "we did 1 to 1 emulation because we had access to schematic" - Uad lexicon is nothing like the real hardware. Remote control doesn't translate to hardware and adjusting by ear i simply could not match it to hardware. Bass response was much different then on hardware. Yeah people usually say "i don't care it's a good plugin on it's own" and in reality it is but it's nothing like hardware for which it is pretending to be. If you don't believe me demo uad and rent lexicon and hear for yourself.

Some users says that latest Lexicon PCM range is exactly the same as PCM96. I tried demo and i did not liked these plugins for obvious same reason you pointed out but then i never had hw 96 to compare it. Developer seems to be super cool person and there is no reason to not believe him- I guess (judging by pcm plugin demo) i would not like PCM96 after all.

So far within plugin world i enjoyed only a few reverb plugins (and i think i tried really all of them...insane i know but like i said i love reverbs and i want good reverb plugin - end of story): Relab LX480, TC Powercore VSS3 (really cool i miss it), i like Valhalla reverbs (i wouldn't rate them high but they are amazing for what they cost and how they sound) and i do like ArtsAcoustic reverb(very unrealistic..but musical). Everything else is was a "pass". Well Nebula programs are cool and they have that cool factor which most of the sw reverb does not, but that whole plugin is a mess so i can't recommend it.

My conclusion to this adventure (based on my personal experience): it's not about being inside dedicated hardware or a computer. Only thing that is important is quality of algorithm. Period.
Old 8th September 2015
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp69 View Post
Any chance you have DASK-S704?
He doesn't, unfortunately.
Old 8th September 2015
  #27
Bricasti is a new product still for sale and under warrentee and service. The DRE2k is not. I've had a few in over the years and none of them worked. Sony will not help, no parts, no support, no ex EE's with insight.

They will all break eventually and when that happens, you too will have a new doorstop.
Old 8th September 2015
  #28
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I wouldn't dismiss the Yamaha SREV1 sampling reverb unit..Yamaha still supports it and it sounds great and has many sample libraries on disc...

I love mine ...
Old 8th September 2015
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Bricasti is a new product still for sale and under warrentee and service. The DRE2k is not. I've had a few in over the years and none of them worked. Sony will not help, no parts, no support, no ex EE's with insight.

They will all break eventually and when that happens, you too will have a new doorstop.
Hi Jim,

how many parts in there are proprietary and no longer available?
Thank you!
Old 8th September 2015
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axisdreamer View Post
I wouldn't dismiss the Yamaha SREV1 sampling reverb unit..Yamaha still supports it and it sounds great and has many sample libraries on disc...

I love mine ...
I know there is a thread about SREV1 vs. DRE-S777, but can you add anything to that, sonically?

Are you sure that Yamaha still supports the unit? I have heard that the remote is problematic, and no longer supported.
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