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Anyone own Lexicon PCM 60?
Old 17th September 2015
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
I think the comparison of plug in vs box reverb has a lot to do with the analog stages of those old boxes. AND the conversion on those boxes. It isn't ONLY the algorithm that creates the sound.
Man, I really wish more people understood you're post! You can replicate the Algo, copy it, code it, make a great UI with the binary code, though to recreate the crap it goes through in a box that is age ridden like a PCM 60 is another matter, and then people ask are they still worth $xxx in 2015? Well if a 224/XL is then damn yes! And you're doorstop when and if it dies won't be $3000 plus, though a PCM 60 has to be one of THE most simple reverbs in terms of Internal parts created!
Old 20th September 2015
  #32
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I love the pcm60. It's idiot proof and there isn't a bad sound in it, although it definitely has a signature. It's a bit noisy so these days I mostly just use it for reverb on the cue system, but the lex pcm bundle nails it, without the noise and with more editability. I matched my favorite settings on the 60 with the pcm plug and saved them as user presets so I can grab them when I want and tweak as appropriate for the track. Use "chamber" on the plug for the room on the 60....
Old 20th September 2015
  #33
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Marogru's Avatar
I have a combo of PCM 60 and M7 and I do not use anything else. If I want space, I use M7, If I want something extra to signal, drumloop or synth I go for 60.
I was looking to sell it, but when I turned it on again, I just couldn't...
Old 20th September 2015
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumsound View Post
At one point it was.
No, at no point in its lifespan was the PCM60 considered a "high end" unit. It was introduced explicitly to offer an affordable entry-level product to the Lexicon line, at a time when their only other digital reverbs were the >$4,000 Model 200 and the >$10,000 Model 224.

The fact that it still managed to sound pretty good was a testament to the quality of Lexicon's reverb algorithms. But it was only perceived as "high end" by folks who were considering buying the <$1,000 ART or Alesis units and had to man-up to swing the $1,500 that a new PCM60 was going for.
Old 20th September 2015
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
No, at no point in its lifespan was the PCM60 considered a "high end" unit. It was introduced explicitly to offer an affordable entry-level product to the Lexicon line, at a time when their only other digital reverbs were the >$4,000 Model 200 and the >$10,000 Model 224.

The fact that it still managed to sound pretty good was a testament to the quality of Lexicon's reverb algorithms. But it was only perceived as "high end" by folks who were considering buying the <$1,000 ART or Alesis units and had to man-up to swing the $1,500 that a new PCM60 was going for.
This is EXACTLY correct (I was there buying them!)

I have owned maybe two 480s, 4 or 5 224s, two 200s, one PCM70 and one PCM60.
The PCM60 was the worst sounding buy far.
They are noisy and have a rolling "55 gallon oil drum" sound to them with long reverbs tails.
I suspect that the "oil drum" effect is because the the PCM60 uses less RAM and has to regenerate the signal more to achieve longer reverb times.
All I know is that I found very few uses for the PCM 60 when I had the other reverbs to choose from.
Although I love Lexicon reverbs, I rate the PCM60 in the "I'll take a Pasadena" group.
The PCM70s comes in next.
Old 20th September 2015
  #36
That's true, I was never a big fan of the longer verbs in the 60. I found myself using it for mid to short sounds. Loved that. Ad a little space to vox, synth, great on drums Ect.

I actually usually just toggled between two settings and used the daw for in/out level while the unit was set at 100% wet. Recall was cake
Old 20th September 2015
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dudleys100 View Post
I found myself using it for mid to short sounds.
Yeah, I'll bet 95% of the time when I used a PCM60 it was set to Program=Room, Size=Large, Reverb Time=Short

...and it was on a kick drum.
Old 21st September 2015
  #38
I have a prototype for the 60 amongst some other lexi stuff.
Pretty basic verb
used to do a bit of beta for them

Last edited by Waltz Mastering; 21st September 2015 at 02:22 AM..
Old 23rd September 2015
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
This is EXACTLY correct (I was there buying them!)

I have owned maybe two 480s, 4 or 5 224s, two 200s, one PCM70 and one PCM60.
The PCM60 was the worst sounding buy far.
They are noisy and have a rolling "55 gallon oil drum" sound to them with long reverbs tails.
I suspect that the "oil drum" effect is because the the PCM60 uses less RAM and has to regenerate the signal more to achieve longer reverb times.
All I know is that I found very few uses for the PCM 60 when I had the other reverbs to choose from.
Although I love Lexicon reverbs, I rate the PCM60 in the "I'll take a Pasadena" group.
The PCM70s comes in next.
Well.........that might be your experience, though there are many to the contrary, I mean seriously, back then the choices between anything and a PCM-60 were very damn slim, price be damed, i doubt the PCM-60 was ever meant as a 1st room Mix Reverb, and I have no idea what eproms were installed in your unit(s) though in the many I've been thru, the 55 Gallon Drum sound was certainly not one of them, more Room and slim type of dumbed down C-D-Plate that had in total 128 options re the settings!

Naturally if you've got the choice between much higher end Lexicon's & 224's and others you'd go for them, though damn, how can a PCM-70 be adored when it genesis or rather 'Gestation was the PCM-60" and is the 224/XL...etc plus the 224-XL's Algo's all in Mono? As for Ram, nope it's the programming in the dumbed down Lexicon Algo's that have been tweaked to keep a certain amount of Algorithm in conjunction with a to be soon named instructional (Taco) Lexichip plus additional 4164 16 pin ZIF Socketed Dram and a slow ARU processor plus the PCM56K AD/DA w/ TTL/ timing etc.

There are just two ZIF Socket slots spare on the PCM-60 board which ended up being used for PCM-70 programming and 4164 Dram changed to 256K and 512KB's of Dram up to 1 Meg (That can make a PCM-70 run faster though no better in sound!). For a Unit that lasted less then 14 months.

I'm pretty damn sure with the number made, numbers sold and then the numbers retained, there is something in the unit to peoples tastes though often it's all a kind of "Audio Fashion" I.E People jumped on 1300/M/S units as they thought they had Clarix Opto Isolators Installed just as a PrimeTime MKII or PCM-42 - then as the PCM-60 Linage became clear from 224-XL to PCM-60 Boom! Up they shot in price for 18 months to $500 odd bucks!

15 years ago you couldn't give away any Eventide SP2016 or 969, 910, or 949 with KB attached to a PrimTime II, M200, PCM-60 or PCM-41, and recently PCM-42's as PrimeTimes are trying to be sold for $900 to near $1200.00 Bucks - All on the back of an Andy Wallace trick that never was! As far as Noise......Change the Op Amps justas you would in anything else? Simple!

The other stuff no one wanted were the EMT 242 and 244? Reverbs that had remotes and were 4 rack units high, most remotes were gone and/or busted though those units were controllable through their front panels, just not to the same degree. Same with the Yamaha Rev 1,5,and 7's as the Metallic Reverb sound associated with the SPX-90'S Ruined those units credibility to the point were a Rev 1 or 7 was classed as Jap Crap junk due to the Metallic SPX-90's sound? Then jump forward to a simple preset like Symphonic and Boom - Back in Fashion they go and they are great units for Flanging, Chorus and and Phasing, same with the Reverb settings on 6 Rack unit Sony DRE's and so many other units.

In the end it's all user choice, and what actual use is the unit - that should be the monetary mark - though it's not! So as I write this Post I wonder where and in how many Skip Bins are/where did end up the tens of Thousands of DeltaLab Delays that were a hundred times better and more flexible then say a PCM-41 or 42 for that matter and even today, show me someone who's got a stack of PCM-42 units that are Software modded as well revved up with 32 seconds of Delay or 8 racks of them with 4 that have the Bob Sellon Reverse Mod and I'll show you a very, very high end Studio who new a good thing and bought on cents to the dollar!

Last edited by TheLastByte; 23rd September 2015 at 05:33 AM..
Old 23rd September 2015
  #40
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I learned the trade well before there was much more than magazines for hearing about what the latest fashion was.
Heck, I quit recording bands as a profession in late '92 before there was even a web per se.
I learned from people who were very successful professionals.
I also used my ears.

My opinions come from actually using the devices.
I form my opinion of a PCM60 because I had to try to use one in a room that didn't have a 480 or 224.
There wasn't the option of stealing the 480 out of another room and dragging it down to the room.
Truth be told, the client was probably pleased and a check was written for my services.
That doesn't mean that the PCM60 sounded the same as a 480 or 224.
It was just good enough for the client.

I have to question calling the DeltaLab units "better" than the PCM41 and PCM42.
I owned them all (I even owned a DeltaLab Acousticomputer which was the fancy DeltaLab DDL and "reverb simulator.")
The biggest difference is that the DeltaLab units operated at -10 balanced where the Lexicons were +4 balanced.
The DeltaLab stuff was OK, but it didn't compare to the Lexicon PCM series pieces.

I lived through the transition years when semi-pro equipment filtered into the studio.
While there were a few gems in the music store/weekend warrior/semi-pro equipment it was a hassle to deal with it compared to pro gear.

Speaking of the Lexicon Prime Times...
I had a Super Prime Time and a pair of original Prime Times until a few years back.
The Super was way better than the original versions, but all were overly complicated for what they were often used for.
The two original units came from Showco and were used to delay the signal to early delay speaker arrays at outdoor shows.
Interestingly, I got them for free and they only needed their power supplies to be rebuilt and a bit of cleaning.
Old 18th October 2018
  #41
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rectape's Avatar
I love my pcm60 but it’s a bit noisy.
Any chance to get it fixed by a tech?
Is it psu related?
Old 18th October 2018
  #42
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PCM-60

Here's what I have patched into 3 of my 4 aux sends. I return the pcm 60 and spa 90 to long throw faders instead of my dedicated echo returns because I like riding them as I mix. I use my echo returns on the console for my ITB effects because those are easily automated ITB.

My 4th aux/cue send is my headphone mix mainly.

The pcm 60 is a cool Vibe Verb it adds a sense of space.

It's no real emt plate but neither is a plug in.
Attached Thumbnails
Anyone own Lexicon PCM 60?-img_8475.jpg  
Old 18th October 2018
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rectape View Post
I love my pcm60 but it’s a bit noisy.
Any chance to get it fixed by a tech?
Is it psu related?
If it's just "a bit" noisy -- as in thermal noise (wide-spectrum "transistor breath," not hum or buzz) -- that's how they are. But back then, the tape was noisier.
Old 18th October 2018
  #44
One of my MPX 100's does my PCM 60 thing. It has that algo/patch built into the software. It's not as dirty as it's 24 bits. It's also not as noisy. It does have something the PCM60 does not: a variable reverb time knob instead of fixed delay switches. It was also pretty cheap.
Old 18th October 2018
  #45
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I have a PCM60 that I use very regularly for live sound . . . the main thing that sets it apart is how quickly one can dial in a patch, both in terms of the user-interface and the fact that it "loads" them almost instantaneously, with only the slightest click as it changes over. I'll even sometimes go to a different length for i.e. the bridge of a song, and a single button brings it back and forth, immediately killing the reverb tail in the switchover. The patches can sound pretty stunning when used in the proper context, and they respond well to a slight bit of channel EQ on the return.

As far as noise is concerned, they have quite limited dynamic range by today's standards, so getting the gain structure set up between the console send/return levels and the PCM60's own input/output gain controls is essential. The balanced output stage is also not very well designed IMO (same for the PCM70), and these units seem to work the best if run with an unbalanced TS connection on the output . . . even if you then use a TS-to-TRS/XLR balanced cable to go back into the console. The inputs on the other hand are quieter if fed by a pretty hot active balanced output. In both cases, the "+4" setting for the rear-panel switches gives much better S/N ratio.
Old 18th October 2018
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
One of my MPX 100's does my PCM 60 thing. It has that algo/patch built into the software. It's not as dirty as it's 24 bits. It's also not as noisy. It does have something the PCM60 does not: a variable reverb time knob instead of fixed delay switches. It was also pretty cheap.
So really Jim, you’ve just said you’re PCM 60 thing is covered yet by 24 bit bullsh*t masking anything decent an original pcm 60 actually had! Good job there! Amazing work!

Yeah I’ve got a PCM-60 except when I don’t and it’s another machine? And an MXP-100 at that? Phone a friend as ohhhh lord, had you of said MXP-1 PCM 60 Patch I just could of got there, not this time! The M60 as Bob said was a filler unit lasting less then 18 months yet they sold thousands if that doesn’t say something I’ve no idea what does!

Enjoy that MXP-100 huh!
Mighty Reverb that one!
Huh?
Ok... cool!
Old 18th October 2018
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
I have a PCM60 that I use very regularly for live sound . . . the main thing that sets it apart is how quickly one can dial in a patch, both in terms of the user-interface and the fact that it "loads" them almost instantaneously, with only the slightest click as it changes over. I'll even sometimes go to a different length for i.e. the bridge of a song, and a single button brings it back and forth, immediately killing the reverb tail in the switchover. The patches can sound pretty stunning when used in the proper context, and they respond well to a slight bit of channel EQ on the return.

As far as noise is concerned, they have quite limited dynamic range by today's standards, so getting the gain structure set up between the console send/return levels and the PCM60's own input/output gain controls is essential. The balanced output stage is also not very well designed IMO (same for the PCM70), and these units seem to work the best if run with an unbalanced TS connection on the output . . . even if you then use a TS-to-TRS/XLR balanced cable to go back into the console. The inputs on the other hand are quieter if fed by a pretty hot active balanced output. In both cases, the "+4" setting for the rear-panel switches gives much better S/N ratio.
Great assessment alongside the fact it has its own Aux Send and Return make it one if those amazingly stupid yet utterly brilliant 128 options in setting up, units you know just won’t fail you!

Great post!
Old 18th October 2018
  #48
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Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkus View Post
I have a PCM60 that I use very regularly for live sound . . . the main thing that sets it apart is how quickly one can dial in a patch, both in terms of the user-interface and the fact that it "loads" them almost instantaneously, with only the slightest click as it changes over. I'll even sometimes go to a different length for i.e. the bridge of a song, and a single button brings it back and forth, immediately killing the reverb tail in the switchover. The patches can sound pretty stunning when used in the proper context, and they respond well to a slight bit of channel EQ on the return.

As far as noise is concerned, they have quite limited dynamic range by today's standards, so getting the gain structure set up between the console send/return levels and the PCM60's own input/output gain controls is essential. The balanced output stage is also not very well designed IMO (same for the PCM70), and these units seem to work the best if run with an unbalanced TS connection on the output . . . even if you then use a TS-to-TRS/XLR balanced cable to go back into the console. The inputs on the other hand are quieter if fed by a pretty hot active balanced output. In both cases, the "+4" setting for the rear-panel switches gives much better S/N ratio.
I've sat there and changed the reverb time while mixing with a PCM60. Its a great way to change up the tune.
Old 19th October 2018
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastByte View Post
So really Jim, you’ve just said you’re PCM 60 thing is covered yet by 24 bit bullsh*t masking anything decent an original pcm 60 actually had! Good job there! Amazing work!

Yeah I’ve got a PCM-60 except when I don’t and it’s another machine? And an MXP-100 at that? Phone a friend as ohhhh lord, had you of said MXP-1 PCM 60 Patch I just could of got there, not this time! The M60 as Bob said was a filler unit lasting less then 18 months yet they sold thousands if that doesn’t say something I’ve no idea what does!

Enjoy that MXP-100 huh!
Mighty Reverb that one!
Huh?
Ok... cool!
Yes, I have the PCM 60 patch. I rarely use it. A mainframe Lexicon and a Bricasti M7 get used much more often. No, I'm not in reverb pergatory here by owning a couple of MPX100's as well. They all play well together. And they are nice to each other too.
Old 19th October 2018
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
If it's just "a bit" noisy -- as in thermal noise (wide-spectrum "transistor breath," not hum or buzz) -- that's how they are. But back then, the tape was noisier.
Yes it is a wide spectrum noise.
I noticed it because I tried to use the verb live routing it to my summing mixer.
With the mastering it brings up to much noise.
I will use it as an fx insert in my daw so i can put a software gate after.
Old 20th October 2018
  #51
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Recapping could help with the noise issue.
Old 21st October 2018
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by 127Riot View Post
Recapping could help with the noise issue.
I used to use an Aphex 651 as a peak limiter in front to get the input levels maxed to the BurrBrown converter. The output was fed into a dbx 900 series "dynamic noise filter" module. That's a sliding low pass filter that rolls out anything above the set threshold. Then it was dead quiet.
Old 21st October 2018
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I used to use an Aphex 651 as a peak limiter in front to get the input levels maxed to the BurrBrown converter. The output was fed into a dbx 900 series "dynamic noise filter" module. That's a sliding low pass filter that rolls out anything above the set threshold. Then it was dead quiet.

Any noise I'm getting on my pcm-60 is not bad or even noticeable in my mix. I actually prefer the PCM-60 over my pcm-70.

The PCM-60 is very simple to use and sounds great. It's sounds natural to me, keep in mind I am not familiar with high end reverbs at all. Except for a real plate reverb. I've never used a bricasti or a 480. Just low budget verbs and plug ins.

The pcm-70 has a great sounding reverb but seems to have a metallic tail off. Not sure if mine is messed up or if they're all like that. It's subtle but it's there. My pcm-60 does not sound metallic at all just smooth and roomy. I don't use the pcm-70 because of the metallic tails. I know I could set a gate after it but I'm mixing and doing so many projects one after and In between the other. So I do not want any extra bull $h!t to deal with.

I have 3 hardware units patched in to my cue/echo sends # 2, 3, & 4. I use cue #1 for a headphone mix when tracking to the tape deck. If I'm tracking to PT I use the software as a cue mix. The rest of my verbs are plug ins. My plug in verbs I do hipass and eq. I also always come out of the box and run them through a Fatso and return them to the echo returns on my console this brings them to life. I also automate my plug in verbs. My hardware verbs I return to long throw Faders that I ride manually during the final print.

I get what you're saying about patching in a limiter, gate, filter, etc.. I just don't want to or feel the need to do that. I like keeping things set up for banging out quick good mixes and staying familiar with my set up.

My kick drum in is always on channel one of my board with a Comp patched on channel ones insert. Kick drily out is on channel 2, snare top on channel 3 with a Comp patched into channel 3's insert, etc... all the way down the consoles channels till I hit Vocals back up vocals and tambourine.

I do one pass mixes that translate well because I stay in tune with my mix setup.

I mentioned recapping because the OP mentioned his was noisy and figured a recap could help reduce and possibly eliminate the noise issue.

When I first got my console there was a constant noise on Cue send 1 after recapping the master section and cleaning the consoles patchbay it's was gone completely. Super quiet and my L/R stereo field became equal. Running a 1k tone down the board with the Faders at unitity and all channels hard panned Left/right my Mixbuss VU's are dead on even. It was not like this before the recap.
Old 22nd October 2018
  #54
When I used to work on those things I got smoother reverb tails by using better sample and hold opamps. The AD823 is an excellent sub for the dirty LF353.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
When I used to work on those things I got smoother reverb tails by using better sample and hold opamps. The AD823 is an excellent sub for the dirty LF353.

I hear the metallic tail on all patches of the pcm 70, is it on all of them?
Old 23rd October 2018
  #56
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I still use one on the regular. it's a great entry into the Lexicon lexicon. keep it simple. make music.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #57
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I have one, I am very fond of it.

It is noisy but sounds great on electric guitars.
Old 24th October 2018
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewAllianceEast! View Post
I still use one on the regular. it's a great entry into the Lexicon lexicon. keep it simple. make music.
The simplicity factor is part of what I love about the PCM60.
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