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Summing out ITB FX separately?
Old 5th July 2015
  #1
Summing out ITB FX separately?

Hi Guys,

I'm organising a new studio workflow and I'm looking at breaking out all the ITB FX on separate channels on a RND 5059.

Does anyone else do anything like this? Are there any other threads about this?

I'm hoping that by doing this the FX will sound more 3D, comparable to hardware units and less mushy and shallow.

Cheers

Paul
Old 5th July 2015
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
Yes, I do this on my Sigma, works well.
Old 5th July 2015
  #3
I break out the FX on. Stereo stem in my OTB16. Works great.
Old 5th July 2015
  #4
Deleted 7f9cade
Guest
The more channels you have in the analogue summing domain the better.

The ideal is to have every track and FX return have its own dedicated channel(or stereo pair)

Once I upped my analogue channel count to 52 and stopped subgrouping stems ITB, I feel like I reached the pinnacle of what analogue summing can actually accomplish.

Remember if you mix on an analogue console, EVERYTHING is summed analogue. Tracks and FX returns.

Bottom line What you original asked is a good idea.

Last edited by Deleted 7f9cade; 6th July 2015 at 01:35 AM..
Old 5th July 2015
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
The more channels you have in the analogue summing domain the better.

The ideal is to have every and FX return have its own dedicated channel.

Once I upped my analogue channel count to 52 and stopped subgrouping stems ITB, I feel like I reached the pinnacle of what analogue summing can actually accomplish.

Remember if you mix on an analogue console, EVERYTHING is summed analogue. Tracks and FX returns.

Bottom line What you original asked is a good idea.
Thanks, this is what I was getting at. I have always mixed OTB on a console or at least hybrid but now I have a spare 5059 summing mixer and 16 channels of D/A free so I thought this could be a way to make sound the plug in (UAD) verbs and delays sound better. Usually in the past when they come out in a stereo stem they get a bit mushy and compromised.
I was wondering whether the reason hardware FX sound better is not only the old "character" D/A converters they have but also because they have separate outputs that come up on the board.....

The only issue I can see is that some of the aux sends will be sent ITB and not benefit from the desk, OTB, post-processed aux sends.
I'll also be using Plate, Springs, Dimension D and Bricasti in realtime.

How do you guys glue your ITB sent auxes to your post-processed analogue signals?
Old 5th July 2015
  #6
Deleted 7f9cade
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
Thanks, this is what I was getting at. I have always mixed OTB on a console or at least hybrid but now I have a spare 5059 summing mixer and 16 channels of D/A free so I thought this could be a way to make sound the plug in (UAD) verbs and delays sound better. Usually in the past when they come out in a stereo stem they get a bit mushy and compromised.
I was wondering whether the reason hardware FX sound better is not only the old "character" D/A converters they have but also because they have separate outputs that come up on the board.....

The only issue I can see is that some of the aux sends will be sent ITB and not benefit from the desk, OTB, post-processed aux sends.
I'll also be using Plate, Springs, Dimension D and Bricasti in realtime.

How do you guys glue your ITB sent auxes to your post-processed analogue signals?
Aux sends you can't get around using a traditional summing mixer.(provided you want to avoid any recall)
They stay ITB.

As long as the returns have their own summing channels should it shouldn't be of any detriment.
Old 5th July 2015
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
Aux sends you can't get around using a traditional summing mixer.(provided you want to avoid any recall)
They stay ITB.

As long as the returns have their own summing channels should it shouldn't be of any detriment.
Thanks, It's a case of the fact that my Ocean Ark analogue desk has 6 aux sends which won't cover all the ITB FX, only the outboard hardware FX and that the ITB Aux sends will be pre D/A and won't get the same colour,compression treatment as the analogue processed channels.

I've just had a thought though, I could always use the desk's 16 direct outs to go back into pro tools to create stems and ITB auxes and then bring these back out the box into separate channels in the summing mixer....

I hope I'm making sense. It's slowly coming together in my battered brain....
Old 6th July 2015
  #8
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Yes. I do this and it works great. I have 8 auxes on the desk which I use on the music bed primarily. But for more modern flavor material, I like to process my vocals ITB so I subgroup all the ITB FX returns, assign them to a D/A pair and bring that up on two channels on the desk. Works fantastic. I have brought the ITB FX back on a few pairs of channels before but I can't say I noticed anything mushy about it. Of course with vocals I'm EQing the FX returns to get rid of any mud or mushiness so that may make a difference?
Old 6th July 2015
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
Yes. I do this and it works great. I have 8 auxes on the desk which I use on the music bed primarily. But for more modern flavor material, I like to process my vocals ITB so I subgroup all the ITB FX returns, assign them to a D/A pair and bring that up on two channels on the desk. Works fantastic. I have brought the ITB FX back on a few pairs of channels before but I can't say I noticed anything mushy about it. Of course with vocals I'm EQing the FX returns to get rid of any mud or mushiness so that may make a difference?
I meant summing all the ITB FX together on a pair of channels can sound shallow and mushy, which is why I'm looking to split ALL the Plug in FX out SEPARATELY on 8 stereo channels....
I'm sure I saw a thread here once where somebody talked about doing this on an FX dedicated Chandler Mini Mixer.
Old 6th July 2015
  #10
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Funny Cat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
I meant summing all the ITB FX together on a pair of channels can sound shallow and mushy, which is why I'm looking to split ALL the Plug in FX out SEPARATELY on 8 stereo channels....
I'm sure I saw a thread here once where somebody talked about doing this on an FX dedicated Chandler Mini Mixer.

But if you're bringing them up on only two channels aren't you really summing ITB? You have to in order to bring them back up on one set of odd/even D/A no? Anyway, give it a shot and let us know how it goes! Good luck!
Old 6th July 2015
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
But if you're bringing them up on only two channels aren't you really summing ITB? You have to in order to bring them back up on one set of odd/even D/A no? Anyway, give it a shot and let us know how it goes! Good luck!
I'm lost now. I don't intend to sum them ITB I intend to split them up OTB.

The original point of this thread was to see if anyone actually uses the luxury of breaking out ITB FX on multiple channels as opposed to not reading the post properly and just saying "yeah I do this all the time on 2 channels and it's great."

Last edited by Paul_G; 6th July 2015 at 07:56 AM..
Old 6th July 2015
  #12
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Analogue Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
Aux sends you can't get around using a traditional summing mixer.(provided you want to avoid any recall)
They stay ITB.

As long as the returns have their own summing channels should it shouldn't be of any detriment.
why not? Sends are just another output
Map them to any DA and route the DA into a dedicated summing bus, works fine? On passive summers you can automate the send gain in daw, with the sigma you can even automate the "return" in the analogue domain
Old 6th July 2015
  #13
Solid State Logic
 
Jim@SSL's Avatar
 

Break out as many channels as possible. Every last half a percent makes a difference.

We often use aux sends on decks to go back to an ITB effect. Fine as long as time doesn't cause issues.... latency can just be a pre-delay on reverb but can kill a fast tempo-synced slapback or phaser.
Old 6th July 2015
  #14
Deleted 7f9cade
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering View Post
why not? Sends are just another output
Map them to any DA and route the DA into a dedicated summing bus, works fine? On passive summers you can automate the send gain in daw, with the sigma you can even automate the "return" in the analogue domain
Interesting. This only works with outboard FX thought right?

If using plugin verbs and other time based stuff the send has to be within the DAW?
Old 6th July 2015
  #15
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Analogue Mastering's Avatar
No, absolutely not! you sum at the mixbus of the summer, or mixer, that's where it all comes together and leaving that mixbus should be a full phase coherent time aligned mixdown.
Summing is NOT a DAW DA<>AD loop, it's a one way street, nothing should stay within DAW unless you do latency compensation, but than you defeat the purpose of analogue summing.
Old 6th July 2015
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Break out as many channels as possible. Every last half a percent makes a difference.

We often use aux sends on decks to go back to an ITB effect. Fine as long as time doesn't cause issues.... latency can just be a pre-delay on reverb but can kill a fast tempo-synced slapback or phaser.
Thanks Jim, that's my philosophy entirely.

I might even pick up another Sigma for even more automated separation!
Old 6th July 2015
  #17
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Funny Cat's Avatar
@ Paul_G


Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
I have brought the ITB FX back on a few pairs of channels before...

Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I was typing on the go on my phone and combined two separate thoughts. Here is part of my initial post above. I've done this before spread out on the desk and didn't notice any perceivable difference so now I only use two channels. I tried this several times on both my consoles, a Soundtracs MRX32 analogue desk as well as on a Tascam DM3200. Perhaps you will hear a difference on your desk though.



Quote:
Hi Guys,

I'm organizing a new studio workflow and I'm looking at breaking out all the ITB FX on separate channels on a RND 5059.

Does anyone else do anything like this?
Yes.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post

The original point of this thread was to see if anyone actually uses the luxury of breaking out ITB FX on multiple channels as opposed to not reading the post properly and just saying "yeah I do this all the time on 2 channels and it's great."
No need for the snarky reply. We simply misunderstood each other. Just to clarify, I've done it before and it works great but I didn't notice any difference spreading them out vs. just using two channels so I only use two channels now. I also sometimes process the FX ITB before bussing them out as I mentioned in another post. Again, maybe you will hear a difference using your converters on your desk. Good luck on your endeavor.
Old 6th July 2015
  #18
Deleted 7f9cade
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogue Mastering View Post
No, absolutely not! you sum at the mixbus of the summer, or mixer, that's where it all comes together and leaving that mixbus should be a full phase coherent time aligned mixdown.
Summing is NOT a DAW DA<>AD loop, it's a one way street, nothing should stay within DAW unless you do latency compensation, but than you defeat the purpose of analogue summing.
Im sorry. but Im not comprehending what youre saying.

So you're saying you use an analogue output as the send and route it back into the DAW to hit the plugin and then send the return to your main mix bus?

How does using Delay compensation or latency compensation defeat the purpose of analogue summing?
Old 6th July 2015
  #19
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HandCrafted Lab's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
...3D....
Pass out of your FX mixer through tube stage - add a lot of new spatial with no especial "processing".
We make this sometimes, through passive mixer with tube stage.
Old 6th July 2015
  #20
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Analogue Mastering's Avatar
What goes out, does not get back in summing is not a closed loop. You setup and fx channel in your daw, you load your effect on that channel and the output of that channel goes to a dedicated summing channel. Then you can use the fx sends of your tracks to send to that plugin and the wett will go out to the designated output where it gets summed with the dry channel that hits it's own input on the summer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
Im sorry. but Im not comprehending what youre saying.

So you're saying you use an analogue output as the send and route it back into the DAW to hit the plugin and then send the return to your main mix bus?

How does using Delay compensation or latency compensation defeat the purpose of analogue summing?
Old 6th July 2015
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funny Cat View Post
@ Paul_G





Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I was typing on the go on my phone and combined two separate thoughts. Here is part of my initial post above. I've done this before spread out on the desk and didn't notice any perceivable difference so now I only use two channels. I tried this several times on both my consoles, a Soundtracs MRX32 analogue desk as well as on a Tascam DM3200. Perhaps you will hear a difference on your desk though.





Yes.







No need for the snarky reply. We simply misunderstood each other. Just to clarify, I've done it before and it works great but I didn't notice any difference spreading them out vs. just using two channels so I only use two channels now. I also sometimes process the FX ITB before bussing them out as I mentioned in another post. Again, maybe you will hear a difference using your converters on your desk. Good luck on your endeavor.
The snarky reply wasn't aimed at you.
Old 7th July 2015
  #22
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I use a combo of 8 summed outs for FX: clean stereo, sidechained compressor, compressor and dedicated (analog) reverb send. once in a while they'll also get sent elsewhere (tubes or something similar). not sure dedicating 16 channels to UAD will wow you tho, I'd mix it up with tracks printed from your bricasti and analog effects. let us know how it goes.
Old 7th July 2015
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldi View Post
I use a combo of 8 summed outs for FX: clean stereo, sidechained compressor, compressor and dedicated (analog) reverb send. once in a while they'll also get sent elsewhere (tubes or something similar). not sure dedicating 16 channels to UAD will wow you tho, I'd mix it up with tracks printed from your bricasti and analog effects. let us know how it goes.
Yeah this is more like it. I'm looking for character and warmth but with depth in the mix.

The 16 channels into UAD/ TSAR/ Altiverb etc. will get some sort of unique analogue character on the way out like the methods you mentioned.

Gonna pick up another Bricasti too for the OTB stuff plus the new studio is an old church/chapel and we have mics on the really high ceiling!

I'm just making sure I've considered all my options but really I'd rather the mixing was as intuitive and simple as possible....
Old 7th July 2015
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_G View Post
plus the new studio is an old church/chapel and we have mics on the really high ceiling!
impressive -- throw mics everywhere to stem out some reverb submixes
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