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Re-amping guitars like a boss
Old 25th June 2015
  #1
Gear Nut
Re-amping guitars like a boss

We are re-amping 2 guitar signals at the same time with total of 4 different amps (Vox AC30 is missing from the picture), 4 different cabines with 2 mics each. It took a while to get them sound right but just gotta say: "I never again wan't to do stereo guitar sounds any other way". This might qualify for Hifi.

This is for a band called KILT. -> kiltdot.com


Last edited by Nevelous; 14th July 2015 at 04:25 AM.. Reason: added link
Old 25th June 2015
  #2
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Mertmo's Avatar
 

What are you using to do the re-amping?
Radial's X-amp...?

More details about how you are feeding 4 amps please!

I'm about to track a bunch of stereo guitar DI tracks with amp sim plugins, all to be re-amped later!
I'd love to hear more about your setup.
Old 25th June 2015
  #3
Gear Maniac
OK, I was engineering the session so I can give some info...

Very cool session, will definitely do this again...

Luckily we have a good collection of amps, cabinets and microphones in our studio...Also, we have 4 different places to put cabinets in...

OK, the setup:
We used 3 diffferent aux sends for the guitar signal so that we could control some fine adjustments of gain from DAW.

AUX 1, the big live room, right side of the stereo image
From DAW to Radial JD7, from there to:
Line1:
Diezel head (sorry, can't remember the model, Nevelous?) + Bogner Cabinet. The Bogner has two kinds of elements, V30s and T75s, one of each miked with Royer 121s going to Chandler TG2.
Line2:
Engl head+Vox 2x12" open back cabinet miked with Sennheiser MD409 and AKG 414ULS going to Chandler TG2

AUX 2, ISO booth, Left side of the stereo image:
VOX AC30 miked with Beyer M160 and SM57 -> Aurora Audio GTP8
Since the amp was in the iso booth, we had to send the guitar DI signal through a mic line...We used a Little labs reamp box for converting the signal from mix to instr.

AUX 3, ISO Booth, Left side of the stereo image:
Peavey 5150+Mesaboogie 2x12" cabinet miked with Beyer M160+MD421 going to Aurora GTP8.
We used a Radial X-Amp for reamping this one.
The Mesa cabinet and AC30 are in the same booth. I used two auxes to be able to control the gains differently straigth from DAW.

For this kind of setup the mic placement is the key to a good sound. If it's not done correctly the whole thing is just a bunch of phase problems. When it's done right, all the parts in the chain have their own part in the sound..
Old 26th June 2015
  #4
InnerTUBE Audio REVAMP

I got this DUAL "Revamp" box that Stayne from InnerTUBE Audio made. You gotta try this thing out, its absolutely wild, best re-amp tone I have ever heard, this thing has Loctal tubes in it!!

Old 26th June 2015
  #5
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Jeff Hayat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevelous View Post
We are re-amping 2 guitar signals at the same time with total of 4 different amps (Vox AC30 is missing from the picture), 4 different cabines with 2 mics each. It took a while to get them sound right but just gotta say: "I never again wan't to do stereo guitar sounds any other way". This might qualify for Hifi.[/IMG]
Audio exs, or the above never happened.

Old 26th June 2015
  #6
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It's nice to see the M160+MD421 combo in use. One of my favourites for guitar cabs along with the M160+e609. Of course, a 121 would be nice, but for its price, the M160 is a winner for capturing the warmth and body of the tone. I'm getting in one of the sE Voodoo ribbon mics soon to see how it fairs in lieu of the 160.
Old 26th June 2015
  #7
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reamping totally alters the tone... I've tried several reamp boxes and a bunch of different D/A converters. It just never sounds as good as the real original signal.

The closest I've come to the original signal is using the MW1 unit with a forssell ADC and MDAC, but it still isn't quite right.

The problem the reamping is nearly every element in the chain colors the signal. The DI, the ADC then the DAC and the reamp box all add something. You have 4 potential signal altering devices in the way. I like the MW1 since it is passive but still the converters alter the tone as does the reamper.

The worse sounding reamp is the radial. Also their DIs color the signal really bad going into the AD. It's impossible to get a transparent signal in and out of the DAW. It can't be done unless you plan on dropping like 10k+ on 2chanells of ultra transparent gear. I wish forssell made a DI. the SMP is very transparent but the radial DI kills the guitar signal. Most reamp boxes suck. Most have transformers.
Old 26th June 2015
  #8
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Mertmo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mherrane View Post
OK, I was engineering the session so I can give some info...
Right on, thank you for sharing this!
Old 26th June 2015
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
reamping totally alters the tone... I've tried several reamp boxes and a bunch of different D/A converters. It just never sounds as good as the real original signal.

The closest I've come to the original signal is using the MW1 unit with a forssell ADC and MDAC, but it still isn't quite right.

The problem the reamping is nearly every element in the chain colors the signal. The DI, the ADC then the DAC and the reamp box all add something. You have 4 potential signal altering devices in the way. I like the MW1 since it is passive but still the converters alter the tone as does the reamper.

The worse sounding reamp is the radial. Also their DIs color the signal really bad going into the AD. It's impossible to get a transparent signal in and out of the DAW. It can't be done unless you plan on dropping like 10k+ on 2chanells of ultra transparent gear. I wish forssell made a DI. the SMP is very transparent but the radial DI kills the guitar signal. Most reamp boxes suck. Most have transformers.
As long as the reamper doesn't introduce noise or artefacts, I can't see a little colouration as a huge issue. A change of tone is precisely the desired outcome when reamping - and ultimately, the speaker and microphone choice/placement is where the most control over this is.

Not sure what you reamp for, but for me it's mostly to re-record and then layer with (or as a substitute in verses/choruses etc for) DIed guitar tracks (from home studio musicians and the like) that are too upfront and lack the sense of air and space that you get from a cab+mic. If there are a few transformers along the path, who cares? Ultimately, I'm chasing a completely new sound anyway - usually one with more rounded transients, less highs and more body.
Old 26th June 2015
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
As long as the reamper doesn't introduce noise or artefacts
while subjective terminology, wouldn't most people consider transformer coloration and lack of converter transparency a form of artifact(s)?? whether or not it's a negative artifact is also subjective. IMO it is a negative. I want it to sound like I am directly micing the amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
I can't see a little colouration as a huge issue. A change of tone is precisely the desired outcome when reamping
When you consider the challenges of finding a transparent converter, reamper a and DI, I guess a change in tone should be expected

Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
and ultimately, the speaker and microphone choice/placement is where the most control over this is.
then your reamp sound will differ from your direct sound.. You think this is acceptable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Not sure what you reamp for, but for me it's mostly to re-record and then layer with (or as a substitute in verses/choruses etc for) DIed guitar tracks (from home studio musicians and the like) that are too upfront and lack the sense of air and space that you get from a cab+mic. If there are a few transformers along the path, who cares? Ultimately, I'm chasing a completely new sound anyway - usually one with more rounded transients, less highs and more body.
I don't really reamp anylonger... IMO it alters the tone to a point that is unacceptable to me for primary guitar tracks. Occasionally I'll reamp a track or 2 into a effect unit or out to add some ambience ... but any added artifacts are not as much a concern since these are complementary tracks. I want my main guitar tracks to sound exactly like my guitar going into my amp and my amp miced up directly... Reamping is not capable of retaining this relationship

When you really think about the reamping process, there are at least 4 devices required and they all potentially can alter or color the sound. To me this is unacceptable and I have utilized some really transparent gear also.
Old 26th June 2015
  #11
Registered User
I expect a Reamp to change the sound. It can be a big positive. If your aesthetic is a natural, pure amp sound then don't bother reamping. But reamping can do things that are impossible by any other means ...

I actually clicked on this link thinking the "Boss", might have been refering to a Boss GP10 ... that takes reamping to a whole new level.

Being able to track each individual string means you can do all sorts of creative things to each string (gating, editing, tuning, pitch bending, reversing - don't make me spell it out) ... and then play back through whatever pickup model you prefer ... maybe a different *pickup* model for each take - or for each string for that matter ... massive options for creative reamping ...
Old 26th June 2015
  #12
Lives for gear
 

I appreciate you delivering your point of view maturely and constructively!

I agree that it would be ideal if the reamping signal chain was completely transparent, as obviously this gives you total control over the character of the new recording. Your probably right about the definition of artefacts, but I simply mean noises that are immediately identifiable as worse, like pops/clicks/phase or ground issues/electrical interference etc. Harmonic distortion from a few transformers won't destroy the audio, just change it - and sometimes it even works out better. If I have to reshape the transients and do a bit of EQ work afterwards, I don't mind, but this is only something I'm doing when I've been given less than ideal material in the first place.

Creativity really brings out the resourcefulness in a person, so making something good out of something less than ideal can have its advantages in unleashing an inspiring idea.

I also agree that recording the selection of cabs you want to later choose from and the DI at the same time in the initial recording is best practice. Everyone would do this if they could though.

Musicians are very capable of producing really good recordings in their home studios on their own time these days. I'm sure many of them will even read this! I have been awestruck by the quality of musicianship in some of the home studio performances I've received to mix. It's a pity the recordings are almost always recorded directly in a single track (then doubled) as they just need cab simulation or reamping to get them where I want them sonically.


I've never really reamped and thought it was unacceptable because of the colouration in the signal shain ... I'm more likely to cause something to be unacceptable all on my own haha

Quote:
Originally Posted by chainrule View Post
while subjective terminology, wouldn't most people consider transformer coloration and lack of converter transparency a form of artifact(s)?? whether or not it's a negative artifact is also subjective. IMO it is a negative. I want it to sound like I am directly micing the amp.

When you consider the challenges of finding a transparent converter, reamper a and DI, I guess a change in tone should be expected

then your reamp sound will differ from your direct sound.. You think this is acceptable?



I don't really reamp anylonger... IMO it alters the tone to a point that is unacceptable to me for primary guitar tracks. Occasionally I'll reamp a track or 2 into a effect unit or out to add some ambience ... but any added artifacts are not as much a concern since these are complementary tracks. I want my main guitar tracks to sound exactly like my guitar going into my amp and my amp miced up directly... Reamping is not capable of retaining this relationship

When you really think about the reamping process, there are at least 4 devices required and they all potentially can alter or color the sound. To me this is unacceptable and I have utilized some really transparent gear also.
Old 26th June 2015
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Mixwell View Post
I got this DUAL "Revamp" box that Stayne from InnerTUBE Audio made. You gotta try this thing out, its absolutely wild, best re-amp tone I have ever heard, this thing has Loctal tubes in it!!

Doesn't look like these are available anymore :( Looks right up my alley.
Old 26th June 2015
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Doesn't look like these are available anymore :( Looks right up my alley.
I can get Stayne to build them for me. No problem.
Old 26th June 2015
  #15
Lives for gear
While not as swanky as something from Stayne, I used 8 line2amp kits to create a one (line level) in 8 (guitar level) out passive reamp box. Peterson did the math and worst case impedance scenario the passive setup may cause ~1dB drop at 20k and .5% THD or something like that. Neither is really an issue with electric guitars I figure.

What I do is those gtr level outs feed guitar preamps (currently I have 5) which then go to a mixer (ATB H1020), the bus outputs of the mixer feed up to 4 (tube) power amps which feed up to 4 cabs. All that simultaneously, from a single source which can be reamped or played live. Currently I have a sansamp RBI, ENGL 570, tube driver, Tubemeister 18 and a P2P plexi type amps.

This whole album is using this mostly (with the guitarists fender deluxe also in the mix), but track 8 is a perfect example of it-

music — eminence ensemble

The whole 7/8 beginning section there is only 1 guitar take.
Old 7th July 2015
  #16
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by mherrane View Post
Diezel head (sorry, can't remember the model, Nevelous?)
It was a Diezel Herbert amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mherrane View Post
AUX 3, ISO Booth, Left side of the stereo image:
Peavey 5150+Mesaboogie 2x12" cabinet miked with Beyer M160+MD421 going to Aurora GTP8.
We used a Radial X-Amp for reamping this one.
We actually used Radial JDV for the 5150.

About the discussion here about the coloration of the DI signal. I have a couple of remarks. First off, we used the most Hi-end DI boxes available to capture the DI signal from the guitars including Ampeg SVT vacuum tube DI box and an Avalon DI aswell. We also used a neve portico preamp to capture the DI signal. From Portico the signal was directed to an Lynx Aurora AD/DA for recording the signal.

I know that you can do a lot of coloring during this process. Most of the time we did, with tube DIs and ****, but I actually prefer this coloring since most of the time the guitar DI signal consist a lot of **** I don't want on the guitar tone. Guitar tones itself, which comes in the end from the cabinet, usually have so much harsh sounds that I do belive these vacuum tube and tube DI boxes smooth out.

One more thing I would like to do, what infact I forgot to try in this session, was to eq the DI signal before it reahes the amps, so we could get rid off all the **** frequencies that the mics are capturing. Next time for sure.

Also we would need more high quality reamp boxes like the one we used with the AC-30, Little Labs redeye. It was and is a really good box for this purpose. Maybe I'll get 3 more of those.

Last edited by Nevelous; 7th July 2015 at 04:35 PM..
Old 7th July 2015
  #17
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JonMiller's Avatar
I have always felt that my playing suffered when we re-amping. Personally for me it is hard to interact with response of the amp when I am plugging into a di.
Old 7th July 2015
  #18
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonMiller View Post
I have always felt that my playing suffered when we re-amping. Personally for me it is hard to interact with response of the amp when I am plugging into a di.
Try this:
Just record with some preamp like Axe FX so you can get the touch and feel you need when recoding. Record both signals DI and Axe, and then deliver them to your engineer.

As a guitarist, I know I can't get the feel of a real amp from plugins, the Axe is close enough, when I don't have the opportunity or money to record live in a studio. Soon I'll have my own studio building again. It's going to be so much fun!!
Old 7th July 2015
  #19
Deleted efff87a
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonMiller View Post
I have always felt that my playing suffered when we re-amping. Personally for me it is hard to interact with response of the amp when I am plugging into a di.
We've somewhat fixed this issue in my studio set-up. I picked up a Radial Dragster impedance adjuster and then we feed that into a Little Labs Redeye 3D (great unit). Then we monitor things from mics on a speaker speaker cab (cab is in a separate room of course) while tracking the DI signal into the DAW. During those tracking sessions I'll have my DAW set-up with latency so low that there's no sense of disconnection or lag between the guitar strings and what is coming out of the studio monitors. Once the DI tracking session is finished then it's just a matter of going back and trying out different mic positions to see what works well for the track. Typical re-amping at that point. But that little Radial Dragster is where it's at as far as retaining the interaction and response of the amp when plugged into a DI box. Makes a huge difference on feel between amp/guitar/DAW/DI box and gets rid of the sterility of a DI box. Worth the $50 IMHO.
Old 7th July 2015
  #20
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted efff87a View Post
We've somewhat fixed this issue in my studio set-up. I picked up a Radial Dragster impedance adjuster and then we feed that into a Little Labs Redeye 3D (great unit). Then we monitor things from mics on a speaker speaker cab (cab is in a separate room of course) while tracking the DI signal into the DAW. During those tracking sessions I'll have my DAW set-up with latency so low that there's no sense of disconnection or lag between the guitar strings and what is coming out of the studio monitors. Once the DI tracking session is finished then it's just a matter of going back and trying out different mic positions to see what works well for the track. Typical re-amping at that point. But that little Radial Dragster is where it's at as far as retaining the interaction and response of the amp when plugged into a DI box. Makes a huge difference on feel between amp/guitar/DAW/DI box and gets rid of the sterility of a DI box. Worth the $50 IMHO.
I would like to try this box. It would be best if you could also control (and see) the impedance level you are sending to the amp, so you could simulate the impedance of the mics the guitar had!
Old 7th July 2015
  #21
Deleted efff87a
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevelous View Post
I would like to try this box. It would be best if you could also control (and see) the impedance level you are sending to the amp, so you could simulate the impedance of the mics the guitar had!
Funny you should mention wanting to monitor the impedance levels. I tried to work something out for that very purpose and finally gave up. Seems nobody has a consistent method for doing that sort of thing. If there is then I'd love to know how to do it or what gear to buy. Would be legit. For now it is entirely a feel/hearing thing when trying to find a guitar's given sweet spot. Luckily it isn't too difficult to find that happy place and the Dragster's adjustment is pretty smooth and forgiving as it takes quite a bit of turning the adjustment wheel to make a huge difference in feel/tone.

One other caveat regarding the Radial Dragster is that there are no markings or indicator numbers on the adjustment wheel, which makes repeatability and taking accurate track notes a PITA. I resorted to creating my own 'marks' on the wheel with various colored paint stick pens. In doing so I tried to space the various color marks evenly throughout the wheel's rotation range and it has been a good workaround. I'll post a pic here shortly.
Old 7th July 2015
  #22
Deleted efff87a
Guest
Here's the pic:
Attached Thumbnails
Re-amping guitars like a boss-img_0067.jpg  
Old 8th July 2015
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mauvehead View Post
Funny you should mention wanting to monitor the impedance levels. I tried to work something out for that very purpose and finally gave up. Seems nobody has a consistent method for doing that sort of thing. If there is then I'd love to know how to do it or what gear to buy. Would be legit. For now it is entirely a feel/hearing thing when trying to find a guitar's given sweet spot. Luckily it isn't too difficult to find that happy place and the Dragster's adjustment is pretty smooth and forgiving as it takes quite a bit of turning the adjustment wheel to make a huge difference in feel/tone.

One other caveat regarding the Radial Dragster is that there are no markings or indicator numbers on the adjustment wheel, which makes repeatability and taking accurate track notes a PITA. I resorted to creating my own 'marks' on the wheel with various colored paint stick pens. In doing so I tried to space the various color marks evenly throughout the wheel's rotation range and it has been a good workaround. I'll post a pic here shortly.
Thanks for all the info!

If you had a different DI that you wanted to use, but you still wanted to utilize the RedEye's monitoring features, how do you go about that?
Old 8th July 2015
  #24
Deleted efff87a
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Thanks for all the info!

If you had a different DI that you wanted to use, but you still wanted to utilize the RedEye's monitoring features, how do you go about that?
Not sure it'd make sense to use a separate DI since the RedEye3D is meant to be an all-in-one device. But perhaps you could somehow integrate your DI with the RedEye's expansion I/O in the back of the unit? It's designed to be able to daisy chain multiple RedEye's for feeding several amps simultaneously. Not really sure that's feasible though.

Tough question there...
Old 8th July 2015
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mauvehead View Post
Not sure it'd make sense to use a separate DI since the RedEye3D is meant to be an all-in-one device. But perhaps you could somehow integrate your DI with the RedEye's expansion I/O in the back of the unit? It's designed to be able to daisy chain multiple RedEye's for feeding several amps simultaneously. Not really sure that's feasible though.

Tough question there...
I might send off an equiry to the man himself. The ability to integrate other DIs would make this an even MORE flexible tool ...

Even just using the Dragster should help a lot with tone integrity. I hadn't even heard of them, despite them being on our supply chain. Never really looked into the Tonebone range. The Dragster is going up on our site tonight - handy device for anyone recording guitars!

And I'm getting a few for the studio too ... you get guitarists who insist on using their pedals all the time
Old 8th July 2015
  #26
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Whack Doofa's Avatar
Very cool setup!

I'm a huge fan of re-amping (Or just straight recording) through multiple cabs. Such a fat sound!

Just as an extra layer I'd highly recommend recording both amps in the same space and then stereo mic'ing the room. The extra ambiance and variability is sublime.
Old 8th July 2015
  #27
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevelous View Post
We are re-amping 2 guitar signals at the same time with total of 4 different amps (Vox AC30 is missing from the picture), 4 different cabines with 2 mics each. It took a while to get them sound right but just gotta say: "I never again wan't to do stereo guitar sounds any other way". This might qualify for Hifi.

That looks very metal indeed. What kind of tracks are you re-amping?
Old 9th July 2015
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whack Doofa View Post
Very cool setup!

I'm a huge fan of re-amping (Or just straight recording) through multiple cabs. Such a fat sound!

Just as an extra layer I'd highly recommend recording both amps in the same space and then stereo mic'ing the room. The extra ambiance and variability is sublime.
Even just micing the ambience in a control room can turn out awesome. More options to create lifts and falls in the dynamic mix!
Old 9th July 2015
  #29
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Whack Doofa's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zigziglar View Post
Even just micing the ambience in a control room can turn out awesome. More options to create lifts and falls in the dynamic mix!
Totally.
When we were short of tracks I would sub both amps, with their own distance mics and the room mics down to a stereo pair so big dynamic changes had to be ridden while tracking. That **** was fun and so worth it.
The multi-amp thing is a great solution when there is only one guitar part but you want to build in dynamics without overdubs.

Another sound I LOVE is that exact Control Room ambiance, when you have a massive electric guitar sound but can really faintly hear the sound of the the strings acoustically. It was accidentally leaving up the singers guide vocal mic at first, but now I mic it!
Some would say overkill...
Old 9th July 2015
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Dear Dylan,
Sure just use the Redeye re-amp section and your other dis to do the DI part, and
if you want to record both, use the thru on the other DI to feed the redeye
instrument in.
all the best
Jonathan
Don't know why this didn't occur to me, but there you go all!
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