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Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?
Old 2nd August 2020
  #841
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I think the sub region is not 8341a's strength, 51b is a monster on the other hand
Old 2nd August 2020
  #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
Hello all, I just got a demo pair of 8341's and I'm super disappointed in the low frequency response. I calibrated with GLM and honestly think either I got a bad set of speakers or they just don't work well without a sub (I noticed a lot of people on this thread adding subs). Here's the response graph I got with the mic only about 2 1/2 ft away and with acoustic treatment on the walls. What's crazy is how the low end is -15db in some spots below 80Hz, plus the response is completely different between the two speakers. The sound is super thin, something is definitely wrong here.

I've attached a photo of the result I got. Any ideas? Otherwise these are going back.
This is a room issue of string modal interference. As tou can see you have a a significant and very wide dip in the range. It is definitely not soeakers’ fault, but a typical room issue. There is not a soeaker that could solve this, apart from having at least two subwoofers placed imat a different spot in the room. I would play with the position as I am 100% sure you can find a better place for them in your room.

Close measurement only neglects the effect of the room in the mid/high frequency range, not in the low end, as these wavelengths are long and performance here is strictly room dependent.
Old 2nd August 2020
  #843
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Has anyone heard of Bohne Audio studio monitors? How do they sound compared to 8351's?
Old 3rd August 2020
  #844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
This is a room issue of string modal interference. As tou can see you have a a significant and very wide dip in the range. It is definitely not soeakers’ fault, but a typical room issue. There is not a soeaker that could solve this, apart from having at least two subwoofers placed imat a different spot in the room. I would play with the position as I am 100% sure you can find a better place for them in your room.

Close measurement only neglects the effect of the room in the mid/high frequency range, not in the low end, as these wavelengths are long and performance here is strictly room dependent.

Ok thanks. Between this post and finding the Genelec speaker placement document, I found that I had the speakers placed way too far into the room away from the wall. So I moved the speakers close to the wall (about 4-5 inches) and I have bass now! Definitely have some huge spikes and dips still, luckily the GLM helps quite a bit. Any suggestions on helping with these spikes and dips? Will placing bass traps in all the corners help? I have 3" thick Rockwool temporally placed in the corners but I'm not sure this is thick enough to help with the bass.

Also, will a subwoofer help flatten the response? I know it will provide frequencies below 38Hz. But not sure if it can really address the peaks and dips since those are really from the room?
Attached Thumbnails
Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?-close-against-wall.jpg  
Old 3rd August 2020
  #845
This is a typical low end problem 80-120 hz as you can see.
Most home studio have this problem.
We don't know your room, but putting bass traps in corners will help to make it almost flat!
I'm not a fan of do it yourself rockwool things.
If you really want good bass traps, I highly recommend Artnovion products, best absorbers, diffusers and bass traps.
Old 3rd August 2020
  #846
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
Any suggestions on helping with these spikes and dips?
Yes, you need acoustic treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
Will placing bass traps in all the corners help?
Any treatment helps but I think the best bang per buck is treating the (entire) rear wall plus front side walls floor to ceiling at least to where you're sitting, as well as a ceiling cloud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
I have 3" thick Rockwool temporally placed in the corners but I'm not sure this is thick enough to help with the bass.
Probably not. Hop over to the acoustics forum, post your room dimensions or a graph and we'll help you.
Old 5th August 2020
  #847
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
Ok thanks. Between this post and finding the Genelec speaker placement document, I found that I had the speakers placed way too far into the room away from the wall. So I moved the speakers close to the wall (about 4-5 inches) and I have bass now! Definitely have some huge spikes and dips still, luckily the GLM helps quite a bit. Any suggestions on helping with these spikes and dips? Will placing bass traps in all the corners help? I have 3" thick Rockwool temporally placed in the corners but I'm not sure this is thick enough to help with the bass.

Also, will a subwoofer help flatten the response? I know it will provide frequencies below 38Hz. But not sure if it can really address the peaks and dips since those are really from the room?
OK been down this exact road and I have 8351bs with 7360 sub. I have included a before and after GLM screen shot of my graph. The before shot still had thick rock wool absorbers covering all the corners and 70% of the walls. (6 inches thick with a 4' inch air gap approx behind it) Even with this it was not enough as u can see. I built a very thick cloud above my head. It was approx 1 foot thick of absorptive material. It made a huge difference as you can observe. Unfort I never did the before measurement before all the absorption was on corners and walls. The before screen shot would have been twice as bad without all that stuff. I expect that's where u are at. 3 Inches ain't anywhere near close. You need way thicker and air gaps. You need to cover LOTS of the surfaces. It is totally worth it. I'm super happy with my acoustics now. It was a long road. DIY is totally fine for this job. Lots of great threads here about what materials to use. Also sit close to the speakers, as in under 1 m and see if the readouts change. Good luck.

NB it seems like I uploaded these pics weirdly. U will find one that says GLM before and one GLM after. They aren't quite displaying correctly on first glance though. The thumb nail is just the before and the "attached files" is the after
Attached Thumbnails
Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?-glm-before.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf GLM after.pdf (505.2 KB, 37 views)
Old 5th August 2020
  #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
OK been down this exact road and I have 8351bs with 7360 sub. I have included a before and after GLM screen shot of my graph. The before shot still had thick rock wool absorbers covering all the corners and 70% of the walls. (6 inches thick with a 4' inch air gap approx behind it) Even with this it was not enough as u can see. I built a very thick cloud above my head. It was approx 1 foot thick of absorptive material. It made a huge difference as you can observe. Unfort I never did the before measurement before all the absorption was on corners and walls. The before screen shot would have been twice as bad without all that stuff. I expect that's where u are at. 3 Inches ain't anywhere near close. You need way thicker and air gaps. You need to cover LOTS of the surfaces. It is totally worth it. I'm super happy with my acoustics now. It was a long road. DIY is totally fine for this job. Lots of great threads here about what materials to use. Also sit close to the speakers, as in under 1 m and see if the readouts change. Good luck.

NB it seems like I uploaded these pics weirdly. U will find one that says GLM before and one GLM after. They aren't quite displaying correctly on first glance though. The thumb nail is just the before and the "attached files" is the after
Thanks for sharing this! Would you be able to share your room's SPL results: (a) with the sub on and (b) without the sub? I would love to compare the before and after to see how much of a difference the sub made to filling in the nulls in your low end.

I have 8351B's in a room with a very similar SPL profile to yours and I'm thinking about investing in one or two 7360 subs.
Old 5th August 2020
  #849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispire View Post
Thanks for sharing this! Would you be able to share your room's SPL results: (a) with the sub on and (b) without the sub? I would love to compare the before and after to see how much of a difference the sub made to filling in the nulls in your low end.

I have 8351B's in a room with a very similar SPL profile to yours and I'm thinking about investing in one or two 7360 subs.
Unfortunately i don't have that info. Generic can't measure that as far as I know. It only measures each speaker. To do that, you would need other measuring software and mic which I don't have. In my case, I thought it was not necessary as I managed to get the frequency response better than I had dreamed. I figured they added up OK with the great phase accurate GLM thing. I tested it subjectively though with playing sine tones and listening to music with both options carefully listening to boomy or drop out notes. I preferred the sub on as it sounded a little punchier and more transient rich in my room. It didn't feel like there was any more low end though. I really doubt that there would be much difference in frequency response. That's in my room. It just punched through a bit more. It was a subtle difference. A word of warning. This is a controversial subject. The Genelec guy I spoke to personally preferred one sub because in his view it was punchier than using two. It was more even frequency wise with two but less defined he said. This is solely his opinion. I have no opinion on the subject and don't even have room for two subs.
Old 6th August 2020
  #850
efx
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My question seems to be partially answered in this thread but I'll ask it anyway just to make sure.

I have a pair of 8351A's and I want to get a sub for them. The recommended one for those is the 7370 but I see some people here using the 7360 which would be be better size wise and wallet wise for me. I know the 7360 has a lower max spl than the 8351's but I generally don't run them that loud. The 7360 has a max spl of 109db and I never listen at louder than 85 maybe ocassionally 90.

Am I correct in thinking the 7360 would work well for my setup in that case? Any input is greatly appreciated
Old 6th August 2020
  #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efx View Post
My question seems to be partially answered in this thread but I'll ask it anyway just to make sure.

I have a pair of 8351A's and I want to get a sub for them. The recommended one for those is the 7370 but I see some people here using the 7360 which would be be better size wise and wallet wise for me. I know the 7360 has a lower max spl than the 8351's but I generally don't run them that loud. The 7360 has a max spl of 109db and I never listen at louder than 85 maybe ocassionally 90.

Am I correct in thinking the 7360 would work well for my setup in that case? Any input is greatly appreciated
The 7360 is totally fine unless u want some insane SPL. I spoke at length to the Genelec rep about this. In my room the 7360 made sense. Sounds great. If I recall the 7360 was recommended for 8351a but because the SPL capability increased for the b version, the recommendation changed. You would need some amazing volume to max it.
Old 6th August 2020
  #852
efx
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
The 7360 is totally fine unless u want some insane SPL. I spoke at length to the Genelec rep about this. In my room the 7360 made sense. Sounds great. If I recall the 7360 was recommended for 8351a but because the SPL capability increased for the b version, the recommendation changed. You would need some amazing volume to max it.
Fantastic, thank you so much for your input, I feel a lot better about getting this one now Much appreciated.
Old 6th August 2020
  #853
Lives for gear
I have had 8351A’s for a few years and just found a used 7370 sub and jumped on it Stoked to check it out but won’t get it till next week

Quote:
Originally Posted by efx View Post
My question seems to be partially answered in this thread but I'll ask it anyway just to make sure.

I have a pair of 8351A's and I want to get a sub for them. The recommended one for those is the 7370 but I see some people here using the 7360 which would be be better size wise and wallet wise for me. I know the 7360 has a lower max spl than the 8351's but I generally don't run them that loud. The 7360 has a max spl of 109db and I never listen at louder than 85 maybe ocassionally 90.

Am I correct in thinking the 7360 would work well for my setup in that case? Any input is greatly appreciated
Old 15th August 2020
  #854
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog007 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
Ok thanks. Between this post and finding the Genelec speaker placement document, I found that I had the speakers placed way too far into the room away from the wall. So I moved the speakers close to the wall (about 4-5 inches) and I have bass now! Definitely have some huge spikes and dips still, luckily the GLM helps quite a bit. Any suggestions on helping with these spikes and dips? Will placing bass traps in all the corners help? I have 3" thick Rockwool temporally placed in the corners but I'm not sure this is thick enough to help with the bass.

Also, will a subwoofer help flatten the response? I know it will provide frequencies below 38Hz. But not sure if it can really address the peaks and dips since those are really from the room?
OK been down this exact road and I have 8351bs with 7360 sub. I have included a before and after GLM screen shot of my graph. The before shot still had thick rock wool absorbers covering all the corners and 70% of the walls. (6 inches thick with a 4' inch air gap approx behind it) Even with this it was not enough as u can see. I built a very thick cloud above my head. It was approx 1 foot thick of absorptive material. It made a huge difference as you can observe. Unfort I never did the before measurement before all the absorption was on corners and walls. The before screen shot would have been twice as bad without all that stuff. I expect that's where u are at. 3 Inches ain't anywhere near close. You need way thicker and air gaps. You need to cover LOTS of the surfaces. It is totally worth it. I'm super happy with my acoustics now. It was a long road. DIY is totally fine for this job. Lots of great threads here about what materials to use. Also sit close to the speakers, as in under 1 m and see if the readouts change. Good luck.

NB it seems like I uploaded these pics weirdly. U will find one that says GLM before and one GLM after. They aren't quite displaying correctly on first glance though. The thumb nail is just the before and the "attached files" is the after
Thank you, this is a huge help. I’m going to do some thinker bass traps in the corner. The cloud you mention is interesting. What was the size and why did you determine it needed to go there? I played some low tones and went around the room an definitely heard it loudest in the corners.
Old 15th August 2020
  #855
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidkudell View Post
Thank you, this is a huge help. I’m going to do some thinker bass traps in the corner. The cloud you mention is interesting. What was the size and why did you determine it needed to go there? I played some low tones and went around the room an definitely heard it loudest in the corners.
I got some advice from GIK and Genelec rep. They both mentioned treating the space above as my corners already treated v well. When I jumped up there with a ladder, the bass was insane playing sine waves at the given frequency. I took an educated punt from all that and it paid off. The stuff I used was Martini Absorb HD. It worked great. It was pricey though. It ended up being a foot thick which is likely overkill but I really wanted to go down as low as I could. Material also has good gas flow resistance. You can look that up on these forums. There is an attic looking alcove space above my head. You know a vaulted ceiling. It ends up causing a kind of a corner on the ceiling about 2 m wide and 1,5 deep approx. I filled it all in. It was a huge job for someone as useless with manual work as me.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
That's half the reason I picked 8350s, the other half being 2500 € saved.

Don't get me wrong, I think both are very good monitors, but 6500 € for what's essentially a near-field monitor?
Did you compare to the 8351B versions?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #857
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As I always say, first of all sorry for my english, it is not my native language.

I've had the 8351a in my studio for some months. They have an incredible stereo imaging, they are really tight in the low end and working with them is very comfortable, an amazing experience, but my impression is as all the genelec line, they tend to make everything sound too nice and finished when in reality, it is not, and my mixes ended sounding undercompressed, with too much dynamics and kind of dull.

I have a nice budget for monitors and have tried a lot of them, and to be honest, after some years on this I'm starting to embrace the idea that more expensive doesn't mean better results, neither better translation. I've heard breathtaking mixes done on krk v6 and awful ones made with superb monitors.

I will get something like focal twin shape or hedd type 20, speakers that have nice reviews in this forum, equalizing the output to my taste with something like fabfilter pro 3 in linear phase mode, pairing them with 4 subwoofers using minidsp and stop searching for the perfect monitors and see what happens, because I'm starting to think, they don't exist.

Just buy the speakers you like, get the best room acoustics you can, and learn them. That's it.

Last edited by just_manu; 2 weeks ago at 10:15 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #858
Quote:
Originally Posted by JblKid95 View Post
Did you compare to the 8351B versions?
No, the 8351(A) back then.
Old 5 days ago
  #859
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I can get a pair of 8351a for half the price of 8351B
How much better is the B version vs A version?
Old 5 days ago
  #860
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maxy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor noob View Post
I can get a pair of 8351a for half the price of 8351B
How much better is the B version vs A version?
I have the same question. Hoping used prices are down on the A's.
Old 5 days ago
  #861
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I am close to purchasing, likely 8331s, still looking at the bigger models in the line, however, am holding off a bit since 1) they are price protected meaning there are no deals to incent buying now and 2) I would hate to make the investment in 8331 A only to have an 8331 B, with no upgrade path, become available. If 8351 A pricing and performance is great, it makes sense to evaluate.

Does anyone understand and have a brief description of the specific differences between 8351 A and B which don’t allow A to be converted to B?

If such a dramatic and important change between A and B; why aren’t there B versions of the whole “The Ones” line?

I can follow the logic of keeping the same numeric name within the line, appended by B vs a new model although this must be a bigger change than I would expect between an A and B of the same model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor noob View Post
I can get a pair of 8351a for half the price of 8351B
How much better is the B version vs A version?

Last edited by StevenLMorgan; 5 days ago at 08:51 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #862
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8331, 8341 got released last year, there won't be B version for long time, because they have the proper Class D amp now, 8351A has an older version, not as beefy, but for half the price I would get the A!
Old 5 days ago
  #863
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The drivers are also supposed to be different in the B version
Old 5 days ago
  #864
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For half the price? the A is a no brainer. The B is better though in power, and has a lot less of a clinical feel while being as detailed if not more. A thousand bucks cheaper I’d go for the B. Couple grand, maybe B. Four grand cheaper....? Definitely the A. Might also want to check out the 8350 and post what you think. I’m interested in hearing more opinions on that one

From inception

8260A [(2009)]
8351A [(2014)] (design from 2009 in a smaller coaxial package with brand new woofer design)
8341A, 8331A (updated coaxial design and parts since 2014) [(2017)]
8351B (updated coaxial design and various parts from them all) [(late 2019)]

From what I’ve read on the genelec forum, the difference in technology from 8341a and B might make measurable difference but not any discernible difference. Any updates would build on the 8351B, which would probably birth 8351C, 8341B

Speakers of different sizes always react differently anyways. Visually we can see they are from the same family. It seems like Genelec wants you to look passed the lettering because they are confident in their overall design.

Last edited by JblKid95; 5 days ago at 09:42 PM..
Old 2 days ago
  #865
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DougS's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLMorgan View Post
I am close to purchasing, likely 8331s, still looking at the bigger models in the line, however, am holding off a bit since 1) they are price protected meaning there are no deals to incent buying now and 2) I would hate to make the investment in 8331 A only to have an 8331 B, with no upgrade path, become available. If 8351 A pricing and performance is great, it makes sense to evaluate.

Does anyone understand and have a brief description of the specific differences between 8351 A and B which don’t allow A to be converted to B?

If such a dramatic and important change between A and B; why aren’t there B versions of the whole “The Ones” line?

I can follow the logic of keeping the same numeric name within the line, appended by B vs a new model although this must be a bigger change than I would expect between an A and B of the same model.
Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?-onesfiltercomparison.jpg


The latest models (at the top) have more power and more EQ points. Its easy to lookup the power rating. But the EQ points (Notch and Shelving Filters) are buried at the very bottom of the manuals (here are excerpts from the manuals) and, unless you plan to run them loud, are probably more important.

When you run the GLM software it does a frequency sweep and listens with the included mic. Then it adjusts the frequency response of the speakers to compensate for the room. These adjustments are done through the EQ Points (Notch and Shelving filters) built into the speakers. The latest models have twice as many EQ points for the GLM software to adjust (20 vs 10) as you can see from the manuals. Having more eq points allows the software to build a more detailed (tighter fitting) room compensation adjustment curve resulting in a flatter response.

I'm sure there are other improvements in the latest models but Power and EQ points are the two most important to my mind. I have the 8341s. Bought them before the 8351B's came out. The 41's have more power (and twice the EQ points) then their larger older brothers - the 8351As. So for me it was a no-brainer decision + plus the 51's wont fit on my shelf.
Attached Thumbnails
Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?-onesfiltercomparison.jpg  
Old 2 days ago
  #866
In addition to @ DougS , the better your room treatment, the less filters you'll need. Also, you can create your own filter coefficients with for example REW.

With a psychoacoustically smoothed averaged measurement, I'm down to three or four small filters.
Old 1 day ago
  #867
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8351B uses a new Twitter if I'm not mistaken
My only concern is the bass, the shape of the drivers is a little weird lol.
Does the 8351B has the same amount of bass as the 8050 for example?
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