The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Custom 75 vs. Neve Genesys Black
Old 27th April 2015
  #1
Gear Head
 
BigBeard's Avatar
 

Custom 75 vs. Neve Genesys Black

Hello everyone,

We are going crazy. Day after day thinking about which buy. Both have really amazing skills and we really can't choose about what are the bests for us.
Plus, most important, we have never heard the Cs75, especially the pres.

Those would be our configurations:

Genesys Black G32, 8 ch 1084 + 8 ch 88r, all converted.

Cs75 32ch frame, 24 channels (that we will implement with 8 more channels), master compressor.

Now, yes, the GB has a super deep sound, the routing is incredible, fader automations, a lot of features in the master busses, with a "minimixer" in it using the groups, daw controller, touchscreen, inner converters for the whole console and all the other sweet features that we all know. But, the Cs75 would be like have a '70 vintage Neve in the studio. It has 2 kind of sound, and it's super fast and intuitive. I think you can get a sound very fast and so easly. On paper it's really made great. But let's not forget... can we count on it? Don't forget last 2/3 years. Is it a good investment? Neve did a kind of the same thing with the Genesys and the Genesys Black. Who don't tell us that in a couple years will come out a new Genesys that Neve treat like better? With better converters maybe? With a Cs75 you'll be a kind of "sure", I don't think that will be some "Cs75 black" like, with new features. At least maybe new channels that you can replace. About the recall, yes, the GB has a total recall with one button, but the Cs75 is featured with a scene stamp like an old SSL recall. So, of course is mostly all about the sound, but those two consoles are really awesome, and are freaking us out!
Old 28th April 2015
  #2
Gear Head
 
BigBeard's Avatar
 

Anyone?
Old 28th April 2015
  #3
Lives for gear
 

better you jump on one of the threads on Genesys or Custom Series instead of start your own.

I think you will receive the knowledge that you seek.

Cheers
Old 28th April 2015
  #4
Lives for gear
 
jindrich's Avatar
 

If you are ready to spend this kind of money, consider also the SSL AWS.

But most of all, rather than listening/reading opinions over here, take a plane and fly to the UK and try BY YOURSELF both the AMS and the SSL for a day. Each. Headquarters from both brands will be very glad to guide you though the product.

I don't know where the 75 is built/commercialized these days. It might be all well now, but I'd still be wary investing €€€€ on a product/company that might not be finished yet (well, the Genesys Black isn't either ;-p), but most of all you never know whether the company/support will still be there 2 years from now. I say this wishing the best to the people behind the current 75.

Also, if you are configuring the Genesys with 16chs, consider also the SSL Matrix with a 5U rack filled with eight Heritage 1084s (plus an X-Rack with eight black EQs). This will get you closer the the original Neve sound than both the AMS or the 75, and will save you quite a lot of money.
The matrix might look abit like a toy, compared to the others, but it isn't. For instance, A-list engineer Dave Way replaced his SSL4000 with a Matrix+outboard.
It all depends of the kind of studio/clients you're aiming for.

Anyhow, check all options on-site, at the factory.
Old 28th April 2015
  #5
Lives for gear
 
shortstory's Avatar
I think you need to really look at what your studio does and your workflow. The 75 is really an analog desk that will offer a great sound for tracking and an analog mixing environment with or without automation.

The Genesys is a more hybrid work environment that connects to your DAW.

When we were looking, we decided the DAW interface was too important- and we felt an SSL AWS was a more reliable way to go. Namely because SSL is more advanced in their software side having developed the DAW integration fully along with the analog automation & recall.

We felt the integration was more complete with an AWS over a Genesys and freelance engineers know SSL automation & recall. It's also quite easy to learn. Similarly, the DAW integration in the AWS is pretty flawless- whether you learn how to use it or not is up to each engineer but it works great and creates a seamless integration between the DAW and your analog desk & outboard.

You should really look at what you need though. For instance some people use an API 1608 but I don't feel like it really offers as much in the way of automation, recall & DAW integration- but to each his own. I think some folks just feel really strongly that they want the API sound or the Neve Gen sound- so you have to weigh that too. In our case we had a lot of outboard to choose from already- so the SSL sound for mixing was our choice.

Good luck-
Old 28th April 2015
  #6
Gear Head
 
BigBeard's Avatar
 

I think every engineer has in mind his own sound. Some likes the taste of the ssl, some neve etc.
We love the neve sound. We own a lot of neve-like flavour: Neve dpd, Heritage 6673, Heritage 8173 and more. And I sould say that Heritage 6673 is the one that sounds best to me. The distortion is incredible and the eq is really sweet and big. I say that because the new kind of sound from Ams Neve is very different from the old one, as all you know. Genesys is a wonderful desk, amazing routing, modern sound and daw control. But maybe sometimes we have to think just about the sound and the music. I think that with a workflow like the Cs75 you can get a sound so easly and so fast. It's full class A and the pres and the eq should sound amazing. On paper it should sound more like "that" sound.
We was thinking about the Undertone audio too. Amazing esoteric desk. You can do a lot of stuff with it, even turn the phase of a single frequency. It collapse neve, pultec, ssl and gml.

But maybe sometimes less is more.
Old 28th April 2015
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Stimmt's Avatar
 

From what I have heard coming out of a Genesys I'd be careful comparing it with a SSL. The SSL (especially the AWS) is drastically more clean and rigid sounding than the Genesys. I find this whole idea of AMS Neve having a "clean" or even "clinical" sound compared to vintage Neve completely bogus and far from the truth. Go and listen closely, it sounds as musical and warm as any Neve. And it definitely has that Northern English noble edge to it that none of the clones seem to have. Just adding that this comes from a heavy SSL user and lover. Don't know a thing about Custom 75.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Also, if you are configuring the Genesys with 16chs, consider also the SSL Matrix with a 5U rack filled with eight Heritage 1084s (plus an X-Rack with eight black EQs). This will get you closer the the original Neve sound than both the AMS or the 75, and will save you quite a lot of money.
Love your posts Jindrich, but: Have you heard a Genesys? The Matrix Summing and general sound stage is NOTHING like the Genesys. You could add 100 Heritage clones to it and will not have that sound. Not even remotely. It is a real console sound, like we know it from the old days.
Old 28th April 2015
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Steve Honest's Avatar
 

Pointless discussion

They Both sound thin and lack charecter.

Save your money, buy a real neve , there loads of chep ones around

Steve
Old 28th April 2015
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Stimmt's Avatar
 

Or this, if you are a true new gear fiend
Old 28th April 2015
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Honest View Post
They Both sound thin and lack charecter.

Save your money, buy a real neve , there loads of cheap ones around

Steve
I have to disagree.

The Neve 75 sounds incredible! It's almost haunting. The Genesys has significantly better routing and has DAW control, the Neve 75 doesn't even have recall, but the sound of the 75 compensates for this.

If you can buy a vintage Neve obviously that's a little nicer, but vintage Neve's loaded with 1073/1084/1081's and 2254's don't sell for cheap, and they take some cash to maintain (still much better than a VR but that's a different story).

The 75 is eerily close to a vintage Neve IMO, whereas the Genesys is a hybrid of a small-format Neve desk with the digital flexibility of an 88R. I'd advise you to buy a Genesys rather than a Genesys Black.

u47u67u87
Old 28th April 2015
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Steve Honest's Avatar
 

but.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u47u67u87 View Post
I have to disagree.

The Neve 75 sounds incredible! It's almost haunting. The Genesys has significantly better routing and has DAW control, the Neve 75 doesn't even have recall, but the sound of the 75 compensates for this.

If you can buy a vintage Neve obviously that's a little nicer, but vintage Neve's loaded with 1073/1084/1081's and 2254's don't sell for cheap, and they take some cash to maintain (still much better than a VR but that's a different story).

The 75 is eerily close to a vintage Neve IMO, whereas the Genesys is a hybrid of a small-format Neve desk with the digital flexibility of an 88R. I'd advise you to buy a Genesys rather than a Genesys Black.

u47u67u87
My Dear Fellow,
Im forced to disagree with you, the 75 firstly is not a real Neve , Neve dont acknowledge nor service them (here in the UK)
It is a great idea, which is why i went for one, but it dosnt have that sound
the other desk is just a fancy mouse and kayboard for your DAW , with some audio attached, i hated it when demoed.

But I respect your positon on this.

Steve
Old 28th April 2015
  #12
Lives for gear
 
jindrich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimmt View Post
From what I have heard coming out of a Genesys I'd be careful comparing it with a SSL. The SSL (especially the AWS) is drastically more clean and rigid sounding than the Genesys. I find this whole idea of AMS Neve having a "clean" or even "clinical" sound compared to vintage Neve completely bogus and far from the truth. Go and listen closely, it sounds as musical and warm as any Neve. And it definitely has that Northern English noble edge to it that none of the clones seem to have. Just adding that this comes from a heavy SSL user and lover. Don't know a thing about Custom 75.



Love your posts Jindrich, but: Have you heard a Genesys? The Matrix Summing and general sound stage is NOTHING like the Genesys. You could add 100 Heritage clones to it and will not have that sound. Not even remotely. It is a real console sound, like we know it from the old days.
I wasn't referring to the SSL per se, but about the combination of the HERITAGE 1084s along with the Matrix as a sumer, for instance. The suming hardly adds anything as we all know (unless it's a whole desk, like a 4K, 8068..etc), it's mostly the character fromm the channel amplifiers, like on a 1084, what brings the colour in.

And the Heritage stuff is the closest I've heard to vintage Neves. Over here a friend has got vintage modules along brand new Heritages (now housed into a brand new Heritage rack), and they all sound as they should.

Old 28th April 2015
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Honest View Post
My Dear Fellow,
Im forced to disagree with you, the 75 firstly is not a real Neve , Neve dont acknowledge nor service them (here in the UK)
It is a great idea, which is why i went for one, but it dosnt have that sound
the other desk is just a fancy mouse and kayboard for your DAW , with some audio attached, i hated it when demoed.

But I respect your positon on this.

Steve
I never said it was a real Neve, but that it sounds like a real Neve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u47u67u87 View Post
The Neve 75 sounds incredible! It's almost haunting. . . . (here ->) The 75 is eerily close to a vintage Neve IMO . . .
u47u67u87
Old 29th April 2015
  #14
Gear Head
 
BigBeard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u47u67u87 View Post
I have to disagree.

The Neve 75 sounds incredible! It's almost haunting. The Genesys has significantly better routing and has DAW control, the Neve 75 doesn't even have recall, but the sound of the 75 compensates for this.

If you can buy a vintage Neve obviously that's a little nicer, but vintage Neve's loaded with 1073/1084/1081's and 2254's don't sell for cheap, and they take some cash to maintain (still much better than a VR but that's a different story).

The 75 is eerily close to a vintage Neve IMO, whereas the Genesys is a hybrid of a small-format Neve desk with the digital flexibility of an 88R. I'd advise you to buy a Genesys rather than a Genesys Black.

u47u67u87
Completely agree.
I've been working on 88rs and genesys sounds close, the 88rs to me sounds more deep and wide, but the kind of taste is that one.

We owned a 1st Genesys, why you suggest to buy it instead of a Black one?


In those years I was hoping Heritage would do a desk too, but still nothing.
Old 29th April 2015
  #15
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Honest View Post
They Both sound thin and lack charecter
Complete nonsense, have you even put any audio through a Genesys? They sound amazing, same designer as 88R and virtually the same circuit apparently and no-one says they sound 'thin'. Transformer mic amps so they are great for tracking (no outboard preamps needed unless for 'colour') and the modern Neve sound for mixing. My dream 'new' console.
Old 29th April 2015
  #16
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Honest View Post
the other desk is just a fancy mouse and kayboard for your DAW , with some audio attached, i hated it when demoed
If you mean the Black, this is identical to the Genesys but with some extra DAW faders, a touchscreen and no Encore automation?!
Old 29th April 2015
  #17
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

I had a chance to do a little mixing over at Max's on him new Custom 75, absolutely beautiful desk. Sounds great. And as far as the company building it, it is Bruce Millet. Anyone who has a console probably has known and/or had Bruce work on their desks via his company Desk Doctor that has been around forever. He has worked on my SSL for years and I can vouch for his talent and stability. Bruce is brilliant and not going anywhere.
Old 29th April 2015
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Improv's Avatar
 

I cannot speak to the "authenticity" of the Genesys (I use a Black; they are sonically identical) compared to traditional Neve equipment, but I have a hard time imagining a need for any more warmth, clarity, depth, or punch from a console than we've gotten out of ours. Thin is not a word that would even remotely enter my mind. It is a hybrid workflow and can definitely deliver a modern sound using modern techniques, but "classic" is the only singular word I would use to describe the sonics I've gotten out of it so far. It is stellar.

Last edited by Improv; 29th April 2015 at 03:41 AM..
Old 29th April 2015
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Steve Honest's Avatar
 

nope

Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
Complete nonsense, have you even put any audio through a Genesys? They sound amazing, same designer as 88R and virtually the same circuit apparently and no-one says they sound 'thin'. Transformer mic amps so they are great for tracking (no outboard preamps needed unless for 'colour') and the modern Neve sound for mixing. My dream 'new' console.
Hello there

I have to Differ.

yes i have put audio thru it, I didnt think it sounded good, i thought it was overpriced for what you got.

i prefer the older Neve desks , in the V s compared to this modern crop,

Setve
Old 29th April 2015
  #20
Lives for gear
 
VT-MHE's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lugo View Post
I had a chance to do a little mixing over at Max's on him new Custom 75, absolutely beautiful desk. Sounds great. And as far as the company building it, it is Bruce Millet. Anyone who has a console probably has known and/or had Bruce work on their desks via his company Desk Doctor that has been around forever. He has worked on my SSL for years and I can vouch for his talent and stability. Bruce is brilliant and not going anywhere.
Your right!!! Because I had a Harrison10b and a channel went bad and he even fixed that!!! I can say if Bruce is the one handling the custom 75s then you are in very good shape!
Old 29th April 2015
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Hello there

I have to Differ.

yes i have put audio thru it, I didnt think it sounded good, i thought it was overpriced for what you got.

i prefer the older Neve desks , in the V s compared to this modern crop,
Its funny you say that because Rupert seems to favour his newer consoles.

Cheers
Old 29th April 2015
  #22
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Also, if you are configuring the Genesys with 16chs, consider also the SSL Matrix with a 5U rack filled with eight Heritage 1084s (plus an X-Rack with eight black EQs). This will get you closer the the original Neve sound than both the AMS or the 75, and will save you quite a lot of money.
Reallly?! Putting aside the sound arguments for a moment (what Neve has an SSL EQ!)

Matrix £17k, Heritage 1084 8x£2k = £16k, Heritage 8-way Rack £1k
Xrack £700, EQ 8x£600 = £4800 = £39500!

Genesys Black is £35k and includes converters as well! Plus no extra cabling, far easier recall, etc. etc.

More misinformation!

*all prices pinched from KMRs website, I may have made loads of mistakes and got everything wrong yada yada etc etc
Old 29th April 2015
  #23
Lives for gear
 
jindrich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
Reallly?! Putting aside the sound arguments for a moment (what Neve has an SSL EQ!)

Matrix £17k, Heritage 1084 8x£2k = £16k, Heritage 8-way Rack £1k
Xrack £700, EQ 8x£600 = £4800 = £39500!

Genesys Black is £35k and includes converters as well! Plus no extra cabling, far easier recall, etc. etc.

More misinformation!

*all prices pinched from KMRs website, I may have made loads of mistakes and got everything wrong yada yada etc etc
Before posting nonsense, please DO CHECK better.

The £35k Genesys Black is the 8 channel version.
The 16ch version goes for £52k
Old 29th April 2015
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Before posting nonsense, please DO CHECK better.

The £35k Genesys Black is the 8 channel version.
The 16ch version goes for £52k
Genesys is an in-line console so 16 inputs, 8 EQs, 8 mic preamps - what was your point again? We are supposed to be comparing like-for-like aren't we?

Could you also add 8 channels of equivalent conversion to the 'Matrix solution' numbers above too - let's say £2k to be fair.
Old 29th April 2015
  #25
Solid State Logic
 
Jim@SSL's Avatar
 

@ BigBeard :

Book a day at a studio that owns each of the desks you're considering. Go and do a mix at each of them, and while doing so ask the owners about the pros/cons of their console. Yes you will pay a little money, but it will be MUCH less than your planned purchase and you will have real-world "feel" of how each of them is going to work or not work for you.

Then ignore everybody else's personal feelings on the matter and go for the one that best fits your sound/workflow balance.

As seems to be apparent already, this might be more productive for you than deciding which "guidance" in this thread you're going to follow. Have fun choosing :-)
Old 29th April 2015
  #26
Lives for gear
 
jindrich's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
Genesys is an in-line console so 16 inputs, 8 EQs, 8 mic preamps - what was your point again? We are supposed to be comparing like-for-like aren't we?

Could you also add 8 channels of equivalent conversion to the 'Matrix solution' numbers above too - let's say £2k to be fair.
AMS is doing a bit of misleading advertising, calling "G16" the 8ch version, and "G32" the 16ch version, just because there is another 'dumb' line input per ch strip.

But how many Pres+EQs+Auxes+DirectOuts (channel strips) per input are there? Half the number of those "Gxx" specified.

If you follow the same marketing lingo, the SSL Matrix, for instance, should be advertised as a 32ch desk, because it also has dual inputs per ch strip, both adressable at the mix busses.


In all, the Matrix (16ch strips) plus 8 Heritage modules and 8 black Eqs cost €46k street, whereas a G32 (16ch strips) black Genesys costs €72k (same as an 924 AWS).

QUITE a price difference. The former combo still requires some 16ch A/D/A and some addtional 8 basic pres (Genesys' "1073 preamps" DON'T come with transformers), so add another €6-8k for both at most. Still a considerable price difference.

NOT saying one is better than the other, it all comes down to user preferences.

As a whole, the Genesys black looks way better and it's more impressive to clients. On the other hand, for instance, the Matrix combo is at least €20k cheaper, has better resale value, takes 5min to freelance engineers to learn, and its DAW-control features are 10 times better.

Sound? Up to anybody's ears.

BTW, it's just another option, nothing more. There's also the AWS, the Rupert 5088... or even used 4Ks

Sorry for semi-hijacking the thread

Last edited by jindrich; 29th April 2015 at 01:13 PM..
Old 29th April 2015
  #27
Gear Head
 
BigBeard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
@ BigBeard :

Book a day at a studio that owns each of the desks you're considering. Go and do a mix at each of them, and while doing so ask the owners about the pros/cons of their console. Yes you will pay a little money, but it will be MUCH less than your planned purchase and you will have real-world "feel" of how each of them is going to work or not work for you.

Then ignore everybody else's personal feelings on the matter and go for the one that best fits your sound/workflow balance.

As seems to be apparent already, this might be more productive for you than deciding which "guidance" in this thread you're going to follow. Have fun choosing :-)
Hello Jim,

Thanks for the suggestion.
I've made this post just to know what kind of workflow people likes. I have my idea of workflow already, but those two consoles (three, considering the UTA) was the ones that we loved more. One completely analog, like good old times, one modern full of routing possibilities. Both great sound. I think we've done our choice. But it's interesting to see what people thinks about each console.

About SSL, I love old 4000 consoles, but actually you have to consider too the bill for keep it in the studio after you've bought it. Same for vintage Neves of course. And I'm sorry if I can offend someone but the new SSLs aren't made for my ears.
Old 29th April 2015
  #28
Solid State Logic
 
Jim@SSL's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeard View Post
And I'm sorry if I can offend someone but the new SSLs aren't made for my ears.
As I said - ignore everyone else's feelings.....
sniff
sniff
Old 29th April 2015
  #29
Gear Head
 
BigBeard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
As I said - ignore everyone else's feelings.....
sniff
sniff
Hahaha come on! It's only personal taste!

I own an SSL X-desk for the little control room, I've worked on some "new" SSL stuff too! I am not saying that they doesn't sounds good! Talking about the XDesk for example you have a fantastic routing and a lot of combinations for a really cheap price. The monitor section is very good too. And of course with a bigger gear as an AWS you get more great sound. But to me, in term of sound, the distance is more between the XLogic and the old SSL gear than the old Neve sound and the new Cs75, Heritage etc sounds. And just as personal taste for our studio we go for Neve kind sound. Everytime I was in front of SSL stuff I was super happy.
Old 29th April 2015
  #30
Lives for gear
My last one on this due to thread derailment!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
AMS is doing a bit of misleading advertising, calling "G16" the 8ch version, and "G32" the 16ch version, just because there is another 'dumb' line input per ch strip.
This 'dumb' input is switchable between daw return and digital input has it's own dedicated panner, fader (albeit a pot!), and routing to buses and mix bus. How is that dumb?
Quote:
But how many Pres+EQs+Auxes+DirectOuts (channel strips) per input are there? Half the number of those "Gxx" specified.

If you follow the same marketing lingo, the SSL Matrix, for instance, should be advertised as a 32ch desk, because it also has dual inputs per ch strip, both adressable at the mix busses.
Nothing against the Matrix, it's a good bit of kit but it isn't true inline so the comparison doesn't work for me.

Quote:
(Genesys' "1073 preamps" DON'T come with transformers)
They ABSOLUTELY DO! No more misinformation please

Quote:
Sorry for semi-hijacking the thread
Me too! Just wanted to correct facts, everyone is entitled to their opinion sound and usability wise.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump