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Vaping - There's more to it
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1
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Exclamation Vaping - There's more to it

According to the news, people are dying from vaping.

However, 'vaping' is a very general term that can mean a lot of things. An e-cigarette does more than just vaporize tobacco. Who knows what chemicals are in these cartridges, but you can be sure that boiling this "mix" of substances and filtering the potentially toxic fumes directly through your lungs is probably not a good idea.

The vaping of concentrated THC (cartridges) with the usual concoction of added flavors and who knows what other chemicals is a similar process and likely just as dangerous.

On the other hand, the vaporizing of fresh bud is not the same thing, in this case you are merely heating the marijuana to a point before combustion, so it follows that it would be less harmful for you than burning it and directly breathing in the toxins that would be associated with the smoke from a fire.

And with this type of vaping you are adding no chemicals of any kind.

I've been vaping this way for about 15 years now and doing this exclusively (completely stopped smoking) for more than 5. Toward the end I believe I was becoming allergic to the smoke and could tell that my lungs had had enough (started smoking it about 1977). And I haven't had any issues at all since I stopped smoking it and continued only vaping fresh bud.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
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In fact I would argue that they stole the word vaping from vaporizing, and they aren't vaporizing at all.

You can't vaporize a liquid. All they're doing with with the toxic brew in those cartridges is boiling it.

For true vaporization you need a solid.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
In fact I would argue that they stole the word vaping from vaporizing, and they aren't vaporizing at all.

You can't vaporize a liquid. All they're doing with with the toxic brew in those cartridges is boiling it.

For true vaporization you need a solid.
As you might guess from my screen name, I have no problems whatsoever with consumption of THC by whatever means!

However, I'm a chemist by day and had to correct you on the term vaporization, which is the transition of a liquid to the gaseous phase, either by boiling or evaporation. When a solid transitions to the gaseous phase, that's called sublimation. Dry ice and solid iodine both sublime at standard temperature and pressure.
Sorry, the geek in me couldn't let that go.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post

You can't vaporize a liquid.
Um... vaporizing water gives you water vapor.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
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I've been smoking weed daily for 50 years and a pack a day for 40. Just had open heart surgery to repair a valve, congenital defect. When I was opened up, the surgeon said I smelled like an ashtray and my lungs were black. That's it. Quit smoking cigs and vape the bud now. There are 480,000 cigarette related deaths in the US each year....silence. 6 deaths because of vaping and all of a sudden we have a crisis. As best as I can tell, the probable cause was contaminated cartridges, not the process of vaping. I've seen a lot of articles trying to connect this to marijuana use so I suspect an ulterior motive to this "crisis".
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
Um... vaporizing water gives you water vapor.
Yes, I'm not an expert on this, but that would seem to me to be boiling it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SF_Green View Post
As you might guess from my screen name, I have no problems whatsoever with consumption of THC by whatever means!

However, I'm a chemist by day and had to correct you on the term vaporization, which is the transition of a liquid to the gaseous phase, either by boiling or evaporation. When a solid transitions to the gaseous phase, that's called sublimation. Dry ice and solid iodine both sublime at standard temperature and pressure.
Sorry, the geek in me couldn't let that go.
Thanks, so when I heat the fresh bud, it's actually being sublimated? The devices I've been using all these years are actually sublimators?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
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Oh my, I was joking, but ...

https://www.google.com/search?client...d&q=sublimator


https://sublimator.ca/?age-verified=8fae731c07
Quote:
The Sublimator offers a whole new experience for usage with organic compounds, concentrates and essential oils. It is the only device on the market patented for bio-molecular gasification. We hope you enjoy the product as much as we do.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Yes, I'm not an expert on this, but that would seem to me to be boiling it.



Thanks, so when I heat the fresh bud, it's actually being sublimated? The devices I've been using all these years are actually sublimators?
I don't know for sure but probably multiple things are happening. The small crystals of THC probably melt first then boil to produce vapor, or could even sublimate some. But even in a Vaporizer you do get some oxidation just like when you burn it in a bong/pipe/potato with a hole in it, just less. That's why the bud still looks burnt when it's done in the Vaporizer.

Here's an article I just found that looks legit if you want to know more. It is a little off topic, but gets the point across.

https://www.projectcbd.org/science/v...boiling-points
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Yes, I'm not an expert on this, but that would seem to me to be boiling it.
Hence, you CAN vaporize a liquid.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
The vaping deaths are almost certainly due to cannabis oils that have been improperly manufactured.

The Vitamin E thing the media is harping on does not exist in nicotine vapes as far as I know.

It’s a cash grab. They want to legislate it to the favor of PHILLIP MORRIS and Big Pharma, and then shut out everyone else and have a monopoly.

Then, they will add even more dangerous substances, make the stuff super addictive, and have the protection of the politicians they pay off.

While elsewhere, nicotine vapes and medical cannabis vapes are approved quitting aids, medical devices, etc... with years of research showing they are safer than smoking.

How stupid do they think the public is? They use black market cannabis products manufactured with propane in someone’s basement as the smoking gun?

People have been vaping both nicotine and cannabis for over 20 years now. There would be a mountain of dead bodies by now, and there just aren’t.

I call BS.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SF_Green View Post
Sorry, the geek in me couldn't let that go.
You shouldn't apologize for that. I learned something today!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
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Some last points to emphasize and clarify: there are some similarities, but there are some big differences when you 'vaporize' pot in a pot Vaporizer compared to what happens in an e-cig Vaporizer. The pot Vaporizer is a pretty complex process because you are heating plant material which is a very complex mixture of substances and you are doing it at a pretty high temperature (most likely-everyone I see sets theirs to max temp). If your pot Vaporizer has a temp control you can optimize the temperature to maximize the effect you're after since different components have different boiling points. Here's a good article I found that gives a detailed breakdown on temperature versus components/effects for pot.

https://honestmarijuana.com/vaping-temperature-chart/


In an e-cig, you're just after the nicotine and the flavor components (most flavoring agents will have fairly low boiling points). So a quick web search turned up a range of 200°C to 250°C (392°F to 480°F) for e-cigs. Also, the 'vapor' that comes out of a e-cig looks like smoke because it is not just vapor (which would be clear and colorless), but is a mixture of vapor and aerosol (very small droplets of liquid suspended in air, like fog). The aerosol is what makes it look like smoke.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SF_Green View Post
As you might guess from my screen name, I have no problems whatsoever with consumption of THC by whatever means!

However, I'm a chemist by day and had to correct you on the term vaporization, which is the transition of a liquid to the gaseous phase, either by boiling or evaporation. When a solid transitions to the gaseous phase, that's called sublimation. Dry ice and solid iodine both sublime at standard temperature and pressure.
Sorry, the geek in me couldn't let that go.
Hey, I smoke a pack of cigarets every day. If I wish to kill myself that is my business, not the government's.
I mean I don't condone heron or meth, but cigarettes? Geez...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SF_Green View Post
(most likely-everyone I see sets theirs to max temp). If your pot Vaporizer has a temp control you can optimize the temperature to maximize the effect you're after since different components have different boiling points.
I never set them on high, usually somewhere in the middle.

With most vaporizers, if you're going to turn it all the way up, you might as well just smoke it, because it just burns it anyway, defeating the whole point of a vaporizer.


Thanks, great link!

Just by trial and error, my conclusion was about the same, I like a temp around 400 to 410.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
I've been smoking weed daily for 50 years and a pack a day for 40. Just had open heart surgery to repair a valve, congenital defect. When I was opened up, the surgeon said I smelled like an ashtray and my lungs were black. That's it. Quit smoking cigs and vape the bud now. There are 480,000 cigarette related deaths in the US each year....silence. 6 deaths because of vaping and all of a sudden we have a crisis. As best as I can tell, the probable cause was contaminated cartridges, not the process of vaping. I've seen a lot of articles trying to connect this to marijuana use so I suspect an ulterior motive to this "crisis".
It seems to me very odd that cities are banning ecigs (health verdict; unproven, passive effects minute) and yet not banning actual cigarettes (health verdict; am very damaging, passive effects significant).
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
There are 480,000 cigarette related deaths in the US each year....silence.
Maybe in your universe. In mine, health advocates have been loudly after cigarettes for decades.

I've had open heart surgery as well. I owe my life to a doctor who yelled at me for smoking cigs 20 years ago. Quit the next day.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It seems to me very odd that cities are banning ecigs (health verdict; unproven, passive effects minute) and yet not banning actual cigarettes (health verdict; am very damaging, passive effects significant).
Well, smoking tobacco is banned in most establishments in NY for example so bars, clubs and restaurants etc need a special permit for it.

Also, at least here in NY what was banned was specific flavors of ecigs and I think the reasoning behind it was that the flavors are so mild (compared to that of a cigarette or cigar) and candy-like that they risk increasing the amount of young smokers.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Is vaping a form of pyrolysis?

Quote:
Pyrolysis generally consists in heating the material above its decomposition temperature, breaking chemical bonds in its molecules. The fragments usually become smaller molecules, but may combine to produce residues with larger molecular mass, even amorphous covalent solids.

In many settings, some amounts of oxygen, water, or other substances may be present, so that combustion, hydrolysis, or other chemical processes may occur besides pyrolysis proper.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Maybe in your universe. In mine, health advocates have been loudly after cigarettes for decades.
I'm talking about the media and in politics. Yeah, everyone has known for decades that cigs are lethal.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
I'm talking about the media and in politics. Yeah, everyone has known for decades that cigs are lethal.
What's less well-known, researched, and discussed, are any potential benefits. Reduction in stress, weight, potential medicinal and psychoactive benefits of nicotine, etc.

I've heard a wide-range of opinions: my grandmother who smoked on doctors advice, and my friend, a radiologist who has treated many long-term smokers...and non-smokers, as well as my experiences with smokers and non-smokers.

As a young kid we could buy single cigarettes at the sweetshop (huge mark-up for the shopkeeper obviously) or from the many machines on the street. I think cigarettes contained less toxic additives then. The unverified or untested crap young people are putting into their bodies nowadays may be much more harmful long-term. Who knows?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
I'm talking about the media and in politics. Yeah, everyone has known for decades that cigs are lethal.
Media's been on it for many years. Cigarette advertising is mostly gone, in print and on TV. Politics? Oh - I know . . . ALL politicians are in the thrall of Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. Got it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Well, smoking tobacco is banned in most establishments in NY for example so bars, clubs and restaurants etc need a special permit for it.

Also, at least here in NY what was banned was specific flavors of ecigs and I think the reasoning behind it was that the flavors are so mild (compared to that of a cigarette or cigar) and candy-like that they risk increasing the amount of young smokers.
I thought some cities had banned them outright? Indoors, outdoors, for sale etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
What's less well-known, researched, and discussed, are any potential benefits. Reduction in stress, weight, potential medicinal and psychoactive benefits of nicotine, etc.

I've heard a wide-range of opinions: my grandmother who smoked on doctors advice, and my friend, a radiologist who has treated many long-term smokers...and non-smokers, as well as my experiences with smokers and non-smokers.

As a young kid we could buy single cigarettes at the sweetshop (huge mark-up for the shopkeeper obviously) or from the many machines on the street. I think cigarettes contained less toxic additives then. The unverified or untested crap young people are putting into their bodies nowadays may be much more harmful long-term. Who knows?
I thought the whole “weight loss” aspect had been disproven long ago, other than the “get addicted to smoking instead of eating” approach.

Stress - obviously some find smoking calming.

Is any of that meant to offset the known effects of cancer, emphysema, heart attacks, etc?

It’s not “toxic additives” that cause these things - it’s smoke and tar! If anything, from a purely filtered point of view cigarettes are much better now - filters etc.

Selling single cigarettes rather than a pack of 20 is quite a good way to keep consumption down too!

People used to build with asbestos too..didn’t make it a good decision!

I know it’s currently trendy to think the pharmaceutical industry and government are lying to us all the time, but are we really doubting now that cigarettes are bad for you?

I tell you - as a non smoker (not a particularly militant one I should add!) if you’re an even moderate smoker, you stink....literally. Everyone around you smells you as you arrive....it can’t be hidden apparently! That’s one of the great things about the smoking ban inside (especially in studios!), you no longer go home smelling like a smoker!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I know it’s currently trendy to think the pharmaceutical industry and government are lying to us all the time, . . . .

I owe my life to pharmaceuticals. So do many of the detractors of "Big Pharma", though they may not be aware of it. You don't treat secondary bacterial infections, sepsis, etc. with acupuncture, homeopathy and diet unless you want to die young.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I thought the whole “weight loss” aspect had been disproven long ago, other than the “get addicted to smoking instead of eating” approach.
Nicotine is definitely an appetite suppressant. It probably varies individual to individual, and the "weight loss" association probably has more to do with weight gain from cessation (which is a common phenomenon), but it's been scientifically proven.
The Skinny On Smoking: Why Nicotine Curbs Appetite
https://www.npr.org/2011/06/09/13708...curbs-appetite

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Stress - obviously some find smoking calming.
It's true. But I think that may have something to do with doing something familiar, and allowing one to step back for a second and get collected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Is any of that meant to offset the known effects of cancer, emphysema, heart attacks, etc?
I think anyone who smokes nowadays knows what the risks are, unless they're totally clueless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
It’s not “toxic additives” that cause these things - it’s smoke and tar! If anything, from a purely filtered point of view cigarettes are much better now - filters etc.
The tar is definitely not good for you, but neither is the added nicotine or the hundreds of chemical additives once it's combusted. I mean look at the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._in_cigarettes. It's bonkers, at least as bonkers as what supposedly is being added in vape cartridges.

...I look at smoking more as a civil liberties issue more than a medical one (at least how it pertains to me right now). There's no arguing against the obvious deleterious effects, but sometimes one wants to not be told that they can't do something, even if it's bad for us.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #25
Nicotinic Receptor-Mediated Effects on Appetite and Food Intake
Coffee increases the effect. All the BS is just an attempt to medicalise tobacco consumption to sell worse crap.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Breakfast of Champions
Quote:
Breakfast of Champions is the daily morning ritual of having a few smokes and a couple cups of coffee getting your am fix of nicotine and caffeine.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...of%20Champions
I lump the BOC menu to include beer and weed. You gets your four food groups right there - nicotine, caffeine, alcohol and THC.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Yessir! 05:40 am and have 3 of the 4 covered. Alcohol for special occasions nowadays.

I worked as a chef in Portugal: finish work at midnight, onto the bar, then the disco's, the bakery for hashish, and then to the fishermans bar in the harbour for breakfast: fried fish, beer, coffee, spliff...and watch the sunrise.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #28
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #29
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Been to a couple concerts recently with non users. I ate a couple gummies instead of vaping. (10 mg total). It’s not quite the same, but it works. A couple beers take the edge off nicely.

Stones at the Rosebowl couple weeks ago, David Crosby at a nice theatre on Wilshire last week. David’s band has some of the best musicians I’ve ever heard! Some of them very young.

Stones were kinda fun. But, meh

(Keith Richards is um, uh, ok, I’ll be nice and say sub-par)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Stones were kinda fun. But, meh

(Keith Richards is um, uh, ok, I’ll be nice and say sub-par)
He's probably gonna outlast all of us. He might end up looking like a shrunken head character from a Tim Burton movie, but he'll still be touring, albeit with holograms of Mick and Charlie, and he'll have the last laugh, with cigarette in hand.
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