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Vaping - There's more to it
Old 4 weeks ago
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
You're making a hen out of a feather.

I'm trying to persuade people to give up smoking, and that vaping is a much safer alternative (safer, not safe).


BTW, I gave up smoking completely last October with a vape. It was easy. Nothing else I tried before worked. I'm now on a nicotine free vape and don't crave or think about nicotine anymore.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #92
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I support that progression!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
From the 1860's on, as the Industrial Revolution faded, my home town was one of the most polluted places in the world, centre of the copper industry, largest steel works in Europe, large oil refinery, chemical plants, nuclear plants, a toxic wastedump post-WWII.

In the 1960's, as a kid, pollution was everywhere: you could see it, taste it, smell it, the pollution permeated every aspect of life.

The difference now is that they've taken the colour and smell away so you can't see the pollution. It's still there but invisible.
Hmm. maybe. Or maybe things are just a bit...better? I mean, out here water quality in the sea was TERRIBLE in the 90s according to my wife...they fixed that.

Quote:
Re: 5G - maybe those bored housewives understand phased-array technology.
I doubt it - they're the same people sharing anti-vax clickbait sites. Whatever arguments may or may not exist (I'm aware there may be some sort of credible argument, but I'm also aware of credible refutes to that), these people aren't the ones picking up on that - they're frantically sharing any dodgy source they can to make their point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
You can put it like that, but that's sorta picking at obvious things and not at all explaining why people still smoke despite knowing all its health hazards. That's like saying the solution to unwanted pregnancies is abstinence.

Why was it that tobacco spread so fast after its discovery in the new world? It was one of the most (if not the most) traded commodity (in many cases acting as cash) during the 15-17th centuries, and its use was ubiquitous from the lowest to the highest/noble classes.
Why? novelty and a complete lack of understanding of what they were doing perhaps?!

The pregnancy simile doesn't work because (again) you can have sex without incurring any of the perceived negative issues (even assuming pregnancy is a negative!). If one could smoke and get the desired nicotine hit and taste or whatever people want without the health issues, it'd be the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
My point I guess, is that it's a complex issue, one that can't be explained away by simple observations, no more in the sense many drinking behaviors are not in the least rational or healthy, some deadly to not only the imbiber but others around that person; yet many still drink with those risks.

How should it be put like? I don't know exactly. I think there's been centuries of societal and cultural influence as to how tobacco got to where it is now (exacerbated by the duplicitous machinations of the modern tobacco industry) , and it's not such an easy thing to rub out willy nilly as if it's an easy matter.
I think within a couple of generations, short of a massive revolution in cigarette design, it'll be gone. It's already stigmatised in large part, fewer young people are taking it up..it's just a matter of time.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Hmm. maybe. Or maybe things are just a bit...better? I mean, out here water quality in the sea was TERRIBLE in the 90s according to my wife...they fixed that.
You're making an argument that the system is making things better? Is this thread - about vaping - the right place for that debate?

BTW: a link for the missus: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/e...ine-pollution/
She must be a special type of woman to put up with you. My respect to your good lady.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I doubt it - they're the same people sharing anti-vax clickbait sites. Whatever arguments may or may not exist (I'm aware there may be some sort of credible argument, but I'm also aware of credible refutes to that), these people aren't the ones picking up on that - they're frantically sharing any dodgy source they can to make their point.
Maybe if you had a deeper understanding of your fellow humans you would realise that even 'bored housewives' can be intelligent women (much more intelligent and highly-educated than yourself, for example). Why should the views of a bored housewife be any less relevant than yours?

The fact is that 5G tech was developed on the battlefield: phased-array tech. I've heard soldiers discuss how dangerous it is. They would know, whereas you wouldn't know.

Last edited by Arthur Stone; 4 weeks ago at 02:41 PM.. Reason: joke
Old 4 weeks ago
  #96
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
You're making an argument that the system is making things better?
Dogwhistle. Which "system"? You've also used the term "sheep". Doesn't advance your argument.
Quote:
Deflection - Some places are getting better.
Quote:
She must be a special type of woman to put up with you. My respect to your good lady.
Passive-aggressive ad hominem

Quote:
Maybe if you had a deeper understanding of your fellow humans you would realise that even 'bored housewives' can be intelligent women (much more intelligent and highly-educated than yourself, for example). Why should the views of a bored housewife be any less relevant than yours?
Straw man

Quote:
The fact is that 5G tech was developed on the battlefield: phased-array tech. I've heard soldiers discuss how dangerous it is. They would know, whereas you wouldn't know.
Hearsay, argument from authority.

Gotta do better, Art.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #97
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Passive-aggressive ad hominem
I don't see anything 'passive' in that statement...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #98
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I don't see anything 'passive' in that statement...
5G is a real concern and to dimiss it as something 'bored housewives' are concerned about is worth responding to whether it's passive or not.

The original conversation was about the relative risk to health from vaping and smoking and other environmental pollutants: where is health promotion and legislation best-targetted? It seems like the vaping hysteria is trivial in comparison to Tepc0's upcoming release of millions of tonnes of highly-radioactive water into the Pacific or the untested effects of mass 5G roll-out. I couldn't get a 5G meter installed in my home (even if I wanted to) as the point where it would be mounted is too close to the bedroom. Go figure. They do charge me around 30% extra for not having one!

Health promotion - safe vaping and smoking is fine - but please target the resources proportionally at the problems that pose the greatest risk to health.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #99
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think within a couple of generations, short of a massive revolution in cigarette design, it'll be gone. It's already stigmatised in large part, fewer young people are taking it up..it's just a matter of time.
It will take well more than a couple of generations. There are nearly a billion smokers in the world right now.

When it became stigmatized and heavily regulated in the Western world, big tobacco simply turned its attention to third world countries, where it could continue its sordid practices with impunity. Not dissimilar to infant formula manufactures and chemical companies to continue business in the same manner as before elsewhere after domestic backlash and crackdowns.

By now the whole world knows of its perils, yet the numbers show while its use has gone way down, it's still a formidable habit worldwide. I don't see how cigarettes and cigars disappears anytime soon.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #100
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clump's Avatar
 

Yes, have to agree with 12tone.....cigarettes are going nowhere, probably ever.

In fact I wouldn't rule out the possibility of smoking becoming fashionable again, somewhere in the distant, murky, smokey future.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clump View Post
.....cigarettes are going nowhere, probably ever.

In fact I wouldn't rule out the possibility of smoking becoming fashionable again, somewhere in the distant, murky, smokey future.
No doubt.

Humans are very persuadable and malleable, not necessarily rational, susceptible to trends and fashion.

I don't see much difference between smoking cigarettes and vaping, I see them as related activities. Considering right now 25% of high school students in the US vapes in some form, you see how easily the habit forms, and how instantaneously widespread it can get...and if there are more and more crackdowns on vaping, I don't see how cigarettes don't become an alternative to some (yes, I do believe vaping can be a gateway to cigarettes).

CDC says teen vaping surges to more than 1 in 4 high school students
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/12/cdc-...-students.html
Old 4 weeks ago
  #102
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
The fact is that 5G tech was developed on the battlefield: phased-array tech. I've heard soldiers discuss how dangerous it is. They would know, whereas you wouldn't know.
First, you could have easily looked it up instead of, as usual, spreading misinformation. Phased array transmission was originally shown in 1905 by Nobel laureate Karl Ferdinand Braun who demonstrated enhanced transmission of radio waves in one direction.

Secondly, soldiers? Because of course soldiers tend to be highly scientifically trained. Not! If you can't even tell what is or isn't a credible source of information...

There is nothing inherently dangerous about phased arrays. Your WiFi router probably has phased array antennas. What's next? The dangers of Line array PA's at festivals? (They use the same principle).

Alistair
Old 4 weeks ago
  #103
Tobacco was a well established industry that protected it's trade via the State; seems like vaping juice is less well-regulated. Is quality-control applied by law?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #104
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
First, you could have easily looked it up instead of, as usual, spreading misinformation. Phased array transmission was originally shown in 1905 by Nobel laureate Karl Ferdinand Braun who demonstrated enhanced transmission of radio waves in one direction.
You plagiarized that quote without citing it Alistair. Tut, Tut. That's shows how much you know about it: an internet searches-worth.To be clear: I'm saying the 5G tech was developed on the battlefield, not invented on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
...Secondly, soldiers? Because of course soldiers tend to be highly scientifically trained. Not! If you can't even tell what is or isn't a credible source of information...
Many soldiers I've met have been highly-educated and taught to develop intelligence; resourceful people with experience of life. For example, some are former navy microwave weapons experts: Richard Hall/Barrie Trower video
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
There is nothing inherently dangerous about phased arrays. Your WiFi router probably has phased array antennas. What's next? The dangers of Line array PA's at festivals? (They use the same principle).
Alistair
With respect Alistair, you are not a microwave weapons expert? Or a vaper?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #105
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
You plagiarized that quote without citing it Alistair. Tut, Tut.


Yes I look stuff up. You should try it some times.

Quote:
That's shows how much you know about it: an internet searches-worth.
Wrong conclusion. I just checked when it was first done, not on a battlefield, not even during a war. And I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do. That's for sure.

Quote:
To be clear: I'm saying the 5G tech was developed on the battlefield, not invented on it.
An utterly meaningless comment when it comes to the safety of 5G if true but it isn't even true:

"In 2008 South Korea developed an R&D program looking at 5G mobile communication systems. Four years later in August 2012, New York University founded NYU WIRELESS, a research centre designed to carry out detailed work on the 5G wireless network.

Closer to home, the EU project Mobile and wireless communications Enablers for the Twenty-twenty Information Society or METIS was created in 2012. Its aim was to research and work towards a working definition of 5G.

Around the same time, the European Commission cofunded the iJOIN EU project that aims to focus on 'small cell technology' which is vital part of 5G technologies.

In May 2013, Samsung announced that it had created a 5G network and according to Forbes, Samsung intends to sell 10 trillion won (US £7 billion) worth of 5G network equipment by 2022.

In November 2013, Huawei pledged to invest in the testing and development of 5G networks by 2018. The planned $600 million is to be used to research how the next 5G can handle higher data volumes and transmission speeds.

In September 2015, the University of Surrey opened its 5G Innovation Centre. " Etc.

I'm sure you can Google the source for that text...

Quote:
Many soldiers I've met have been highly-educated and taught to develop intelligence;
Taught to develop intelligence? Another topic you clearly know nothing about.

Quote:
With respect Alistair, you are not a microwave weapons expert?
We are not talking about weapons. We are talking about 5G. But yes, I understand how phased arrays work. It isn't very complicated.

Alistair
Old 4 weeks ago
  #106
Apologies Alistair, I'm too busy. Please continue without me.

Misinformation? Swiss have 5G ban? Where else? Limitations here in Wales AFAIK.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
You're making an argument that the system is making things better? Is this thread - about vaping - the right place for that debate?
I think that's exactly the point, is vaping better than smoking?

For everyone around the smoker - an definite yes (unless there's an argument that it's not just water vapour being released). Even you couldn't argue otherwise there right?

For the smoker - in some ways yes, in other ways uncertain. Which means on balance it's "yes" until we know differently.

Quote:
BTW: a link for the missus: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/e...ine-pollution/
She must be a special type of woman to put up with you. My respect to your good lady.
She is, and if you're partnered, likewise I was talking specifically about effluent outlets, something I know a little about because my family-in-law are responsible for monitoring them for the NSW government!

Quote:
Maybe if you had a deeper understanding of your fellow humans you would realise that even 'bored housewives' can be intelligent women (much more intelligent and highly-educated than yourself, for example). Why should the views of a bored housewife be any less relevant than yours?
As I'm sure you're aware, an opinion is only worth anything if it's educated.

I'm not suggesting anything about the intelligence levels of anyone, other than if you're referring to scam/hoax/fake news sites as your source of "proof", I'm not going to take what you're saying at face value. And as I've said, locally it's the same people spouting anti-vaxx BS, so again if you're taken in by one thing, your cred isn't really anything to boast about for the other.

Quote:
The fact is that 5G tech was developed on the battlefield: phased-array tech. I've heard soldiers discuss how dangerous it is. They would know, whereas you wouldn't know.
Well - it depends doesn't it, on how much THEY understand and whether they're attributing problems to the right cause? Specific references? are we talking the guys who designed it or the guys using it?

I'm not really on one side of the fence or the other here - I've just seen an awful lot of fake news sites referenced, and when someone has to refer to those...you can't really trust their opinions as valid.

I was looking at the "emfacts" website, which aside from a dubious name (if you're actually factual, you probably don't have to state as much), I can't seem to find any positive or negative critique of, other than it itself is referenced by fake news sites.
What do you think on that one?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
It will take well more than a couple of generations. There are nearly a billion smokers in the world right now.

When it became stigmatized and heavily regulated in the Western world, big tobacco simply turned its attention to third world countries, where it could continue its sordid practices with impunity. Not dissimilar to infant formula manufactures and chemical companies to continue business in the same manner as before elsewhere after domestic backlash and crackdowns.

By now the whole world knows of its perils, yet the numbers show while its use has gone way down, it's still a formidable habit worldwide. I don't see how cigarettes and cigars disappears anytime soon.
Yes, I'm very guilty of applying this train of thought to the Western World only, and that's definitely my fault!

Still - observations are fairly accurate I think as far as the developed Western World goes; more people are stopping than are starting.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #109
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think that's exactly the point, is vaping better than smoking?
Vaping done correctly is a huge improvement over burning and ingesting the toxic fumes created by that combustion.

Causing less harm to your lungs. And it doesn't have the lingering smell that attaches itself to everything around you. No second had smoke for anyone else. Much more stealth for the user. And more efficient use of whatever material you're vaping.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #110
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Apologies Alistair, I'm too busy. Please continue without me.
Good, you are starting to learn. Not quite fast enough though as you can't help introducing the next piece of misinformation:

Quote:
Misinformation? Swiss have 5G ban?
I am guessing that it is by pure accident that those two sentences are right beside each other but they do indeed belong beside each other as there is no 5G ban in Switzerland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/health-fears_swiss-cantons-lack-clout-to-ban-5g-mobile-network-/44941858
Swiss cantons do not have the legal authority to unilaterally impose moratoriums on the installation of the 5G (fifth generation) mobile communications network, the Federal Office of Communications (Ofcom) has stated.

But an Ofcom spokesperson told the SonntagsZeitung newspaper on Sunday that the federal authorities alone are responsible for determining the health risks to the public. “There is therefore no option for cantonal or communal regulations to protect people from mobile phone system radiation. The enactment of such regulations would be contrary to the law.”
5G is already live in 54 towns in Switzerland since April! (Probably more by now).

So again, you didn't check your facts and are just spreading ignorance.

Alistair
Old 3 weeks ago
  #111
Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/health-...work-/44941858
Swiss cantons do not have the legal authority to unilaterally impose moratoriums on the installation of the 5G (fifth generation) mobile communications network, the Federal Office of Communications (Ofcom) has stated.

But an Ofcom spokesperson told the SonntagsZeitung newspaper on Sunday that the federal authorities alone are responsible for determining the health risks to the public. “There is therefore no option for cantonal or communal regulations to protect people from mobile phone system radiation. The enactment of such regulations would be contrary to the law.”
I bolded the important bit in case you missed it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #112
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I bolded the important bit in case you missed it.
5G is non-ionising radiation. It doesn't have enough energy to break molecular bonds. It actually produces less radiation than 4G.

If you find any evidence from a reputable source that there is any danger from 5G, with an explanation of how the damage would occur, do share but please check things first.

Thanks,

Alistair
Old 3 weeks ago
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Vaping done correctly is a huge improvement over burning and ingesting the toxic fumes created by that combustion.

Causing less harm to your lungs. And it doesn't have the lingering smell that attaches itself to everything around you. No second had smoke for anyone else. Much more stealth for the user. And more efficient use of whatever material you're vaping.
I used to think that, but now I'm not so sure. I think more tests need to be done. Smoking joints and blunts has always been less impactful on my lungs and all my friends who partake.

People want to believe that vaping is healthier, cleaner and safer, but we don't know the whole story yet. One of the main reasons stoners flocked to vaping is to preserve their supply longer; you generally use more herb for joints then you do for a vape bowl.

The safest way to ingest cannabis is by oils and tinctures taken orally.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I think that's exactly the point, is vaping better than smoking?

For everyone around the smoker - an definite yes (unless there's an argument that it's not just water vapour being released). Even you couldn't argue otherwise there right?
Personally I don't smoke where it would cause annoyance or offence to anyone. I understand why they wouldn't like it as I've worked in smoke-filled industries: bars, clubs, factories, etc. - equally I'm not keen on many types of perfume or types of alcohol or some meats e.g. smokie roast cow. I think the freedom to smoke/vape means responsibilities too.
I think everyone should be aware, smoker, vaper or not. In general people should be more considerate to one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
..She is, and if you're partnered, likewise I was talking specifically about effluent outlets, something I know a little about because my family-in-law are responsible for monitoring them for the NSW government!
Hey great. I'm only teasing. I know a little about effluent outlets too - we used to surf the Sh#t Pipe. Big campaign to clean it up but impossible due to all that residue from the Industrial Revolution; 2 wars worth of toxic crap; five ageing nuclear plants; petro-chemical plants; oil refineries; shipwrecked tankers; steelworks...and some unidentifiable leaving gifts from M#nsanto.

For me, those are more pressing public health issues than vaping/smoking.

Now if they make a safe 5G smart meter that can legally be installed in my home then I could save 30% on my fuel bills...also, the energy companies face multi-million pound fines if the roll-out is not fully implemented.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
5G is non-ionising radiation. It doesn't have enough energy to break molecular bonds. It actually produces less radiation than 4G.
Is it safe though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
...If you find any evidence from a reputable source that there is any danger from 5G, with an explanation of how the damage would occur, do share but please check things first.

Thanks,

Alistair
It's my concern, not yours. Psycho_Monkey asked me what concerns I had that were greater than vaping/smoking and I said: Fukulympics, 5G, and biome destruction. Those are my concerns. I'm not trying to convince anyone else; I don't need to. You seem to be trying to convince me 5G is safe?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #116
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deuc647's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Vaping done correctly is a huge improvement over burning and ingesting the toxic fumes created by that combustion.

Causing less harm to your lungs. And it doesn't have the lingering smell that attaches itself to everything around you. No second had smoke for anyone else. Much more stealth for the user. And more efficient use of whatever material you're vaping.
This, if fuking dumb.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #117
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
The safest way to ingest cannabis is by oils and tinctures taken orally.
It's also possibly the most dangerous, as it's very hard (if not practically impossible) to OD on pot by smoking it, whereas it's very easy to do ingesting it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #118
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
It's also possibly the most dangerous, as it's very hard (if not practically impossible) to OD on pot by smoking it, whereas it's very easy to do ingesting it.
Agreed.

Eating is a completely different experience. It takes a long time to take effect, and a very long time for you to transition back to normal. It is more appropriate for a planned break, like a music festival or on a camping trip. More similar to the time frame for an acid trip.

And yes, eating too much can be a concern for even seasoned users let alone new and inexperienced users. If you get too high, you better figure out how to deal with it because it is going to last a while.

And eating a bunch of food is not going to bring you down quickly like it can when you smoke or vape it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #119
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
I used to think that, but now I'm not so sure. I think more tests need to be done. Smoking joints and blunts has always been less impactful on my lungs and all my friends who partake.

People want to believe that vaping is healthier, cleaner and safer, but we don't know the whole story yet. One of the main reasons stoners flocked to vaping is to preserve their supply longer; you generally use more herb for joints then you do for a vape bowl.

The safest way to ingest cannabis is by oils and tinctures taken orally.
I have personal and long term experience. Started smoking it 42 years ago and mostly daily use for all those years.

I never was a fan of joints as I wasn't too keen on breathing in the fumes of burning paper. Also the most wasteful uses of the cannabis as it is burning away between hits. Another issues is smelly, sticky fingers from handling the burning joints.

I mostly used a bong and filtered the smoke through water. If you are going to burn it, I highly recommend this method.

I started transitioning to a vaporizer about 15 years ago. Around 7 years ago I noticed my body starting to react negatively to smoke, even through a bong. I no longer enjoyed smoking it, gave all my pipes and bongs to a friend, and have only vaped ever since.

But I only vape actual flower. I've tried a friend's vape pain (THC cartridges) and found the high to be much less balanced. There is a lot more in marijuana than just THC. Plus I know exactly what I'm vaping, no guessing what chemicals someone put in a cartridge.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #120
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I never was a fan of joints as I wasn't too keen on breathing in the fumes of burning paper. Also the most wasteful uses of the cannabis as it is burning away between hits. Another issues is smelly, sticky fingers from handling the burning joints.

I mostly used a bong and filtered the smoke through water. If you are going to burn it, I highly recommend this method.
Yeah, there is an economic factor to joints, it's a more expensive method of using it. Also, it's not a good thing for the esophagus to hold hot resinous smoke in your throat, I'd think that's as much if not more of a cancer scare as the particulates in the lungs are.

But, the taste...nothing beats it if you've got some nice buds. It's like the difference in flavor and refinement between anejo vs reposado in tequila. Bongs are the second best, and the most practical (and more healthy) method.

I've gone through many vape devices. Not the newfangled ones, but vapes for flowers have been around for more than 30 years. I even used to used one where you attached the device to a soldering gun. They all fail after awhile - the resin buildup eventually makes them unusable.
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