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Capacitors for Neve Re-cap
Old 18th November 2005
  #1
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Capacitors for Neve Re-cap

We have been searching the web etc but still haven't found a large enough supply of desirable capacitors that we can all agree would be the right way to go. We have a 1979 Neve 6235 which is loaded with 36 33114's and 8 33314a's and has never been recapped, it's getting to be about time! any advice on where to find the right capacitors would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
John Gray
The Saltmine Studios
Old 21st November 2005
  #2
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Westlake HR1's Avatar
 

Caps

I don't want to suggest I am an expert but if budget is no object try and use Blackgates throughout. Could be very costly but phenominal results. Had a bud recap a Soundcraft board with them and it was simply stunning. Far superior to the original caps (Roederstein's). For the polyesters you can't go wrong with Wima's. Once again not cheap. They all have a sonic signature thats for sure. For Polystyrenes, there are several good brands out there.

I am about to try out some Nichicon KZ Muse series electrolytics in 4 very high end Boulder Amplifiers. I will definately post my thoughts by Thursday this week. If I don't like them I will use the Blackgates.

Blackgates are made by a division of Rubycon. The VK and FK are polorized. The N,NX,NH series are non polar and great for decoupling and power supply applications.

Ken
Old 22nd November 2005
  #3
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Are the caps in question axial (leads coming out from each end of the tubular can) or axial (both wires coming out from one end)?

In general, only the electrolytics need to be replaced in older gear. The "film" capacitors don't have the aging/drying-out problems.

Bri
Old 22nd November 2005
  #4
Most of those Neve cards inside are loaded with tantalum caps which don't dry out. They sound ratty, but don't dry out. They explode and throw poisonous clouds in the room, but they don't dry out.

Did I mention that they don't dry out?
The remaining caps are probably axial electrolytics.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 29th November 2005
  #5
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The little tear drop-shaped ones are tantalum and don't need replacing. They're used for coupling at the input of amp stages, not for psu decoupling, IIRC, so no real danger of popping. Besides, it's a part of the Neve sound. I believe there are both axial and radial electrolytic caps in the 33xxx modules. The axial ones should be blue colored and made by Phillips, the standard range. Fortunately those are still made and sold as "ASM 021" series or "2222 021" available from Vishay/BC (Beyschlag Central Labs, formerly Phillips). However, the next line up from that, BC AML 138, will sound the same but last much longer, leak less DC, and handle high temperatures better. They're good caps. As for the radials in your Neve modules, I think those are black, made by a company called ITT. I don't think ITT makes caps anymore and I'm not sure what would be a good substitute, sound-wise, but there are dozens of manufacturerers who make radial caps which will fit those footprints. If it were me I'd try Nichicon HE, Elna RJB, or maybe Panasonic NHG. Digi-key sells all this ****. PAY VERY CAREFUL ATTENTION to polarity (+,-) when replacing caps. Marking which side is + on the PCB with a pen can help. Good luck!
Old 29th November 2005
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlake HR1
I don't want to suggest I am an expert but if budget is no object try and use Blackgates throughout. Could be very costly but phenominal results. Had a bud recap a Soundcraft board with them and it was simply stunning. Far superior to the original caps (Roederstein's). For the polyesters you can't go wrong with Wima's. Once again not cheap. They all have a sonic signature thats for sure. For Polystyrenes, there are several good brands out there.

I am about to try out some Nichicon KZ Muse series electrolytics in 4 very high end Boulder Amplifiers. I will definately post my thoughts by Thursday this week. If I don't like them I will use the Blackgates.

Blackgates are made by a division of Rubycon. The VK and FK are polorized. The N,NX,NH series are non polar and great for decoupling and power supply applications.

Ken
As good as the Black Gates are, they are still electrolytics and damp transients. I highly recommend bypassing them with a high quality polyprop film like IMB, KimberKaps, MIT MultiCaps, InfiniCaps, Silverfoil in oil types etc. My experience with Boulder products is not so good with high end caps, somehow they seem to let top end harshness through.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 1st December 2005
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams
As good as the Black Gates are, they are still electrolytics and damp transients. I highly recommend bypassing them with a high quality polyprop film like IMB, KimberKaps, MIT MultiCaps, InfiniCaps, Silverfoil in oil types etc.
Yeah, but you don't want the circuit to sound like a Neve anymore. I'm guessing the console owner does, which is why they're asking for a cap recommendation rather than just flipping open the Digikey catalog and selecting something with similar specs to the originals.

Personally, I would just use high-temp Phillips axials from Digikey to replace the old Phillips axials, and I'd use Panasonic FMs, also from digikey, for the radials. The FMs are much, much better caps than what's in the console now, with far lower impedance, so they will open up the top end too. And you can make them a lot bigger if you want. But they're relatively hassle-free, so it's a good place to start. Try them in a couple of modules and see if you love or hate the change in the sound. If you hate it, perhaps you move to a lower-grade cap that performs more like the originals. I seem to remember that the axials in the 33114 are primarily power supply decoupling, while the radials are mostly audio coupling. Take a look at what each cap is doing, and let that be your guide with regard to how you choose to replace it.

Remember, recap the power supply first, then the monitor path, then the master section, then the channels. It's important to be able to hear your results before you repeat them across the whole console.
Old 1st December 2005
  #8
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Anytime someone reccomends Panasonics for electrolytics, I have to jump in and reccomend Nichicons. HE's and PW's are both awesome. I don't like the sound of the Panasonics, but that's just my opinion.
Old 1st December 2005
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonk
Anytime someone reccomends Panasonics for electrolytics, I have to jump in and reccomend Nichicons. HE's and PW's are both awesome. I don't like the sound of the Panasonics, but that's just my opinion.
All electrolytics sound like crap, anyone that's versed in direct coupled audio designs would know that. I've never heard any cap that sounded better than no cap. This is why they require a bypass cap to avoid absorbtion. Some designs do not like open sonics as the flavor and amount of dirt can be either pleasing or irratating, depending on how far Pandora's Box is opened.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 12th December 2005
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

So I ordered a bunch of axial capaciotrs to recap the console in question, going with the BC Components ASM 021 series, was able to find the exact values. In the 33314 modules there was 2 470uf 25 volt, which i will be replacing with the exact same values, and the other 10 caps are 150uf 16volt and i ordered 150uf 25 volt, after noticeing i ordered the wrong voltage now my question is: by increasing the voltage on the cap? will this affect the circuit or perfromance of the capacitor at all? or should i send the 25 volt caps back and find some 150 uf 16volt? also just wondering about the radials how crucial are these? and should they be changed?
Old 12th December 2005
  #11
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Slightly increasing either the capacitance or voltage should have minimal effect.

Bri
Old 12th December 2005
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianroth
Slightly increasing either the capacitance or voltage should have minimal effect.

Bri
thanks
Old 27th March 2015
  #13
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Hey, I have a mismatch on mine as well. one of mine has more bass and the other has more highs. Is it the Big blue capacitor on the left hand side with a tan top? Who makes these again, and can I get the same size and sound. BC? For 1272. Thanks
Old 14th April 2015
  #14
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The one I use on my 1272 does not have film cap on it, but I love the sound, bass is like non existent tho lol but it sounds good.. Wouldn't use it as a keyboard DI because of that fact. If I do change it back to film, I don't want to lose the silkyness of the pre. Why would someone change it. Or did 1272's sometimes come with no film cap
Old 14th April 2015
  #15
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Hi
The electrolytics were probably the cheapest that could be found at the time of manufacture. Tantalums were specified in places where it was important.
BC 'branded' caps were previously Philips and had the mid blue slightly transparent plastic wrap.
Any electrolytics older than say 20 years will already be 'failing', having reduced from initial capacitance and ESR values.
I have just replaced a load in a Neve module (out of coincidence) and measured them. All were either around half marked capacitance, high ESR or downright 'leaky' although the module worked 'OK' according to it's owner.
Matt S
Old 15th June 2015
  #16
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Still no answer on bass response
Old 15th June 2015
  #17
Want bass? Replace the output transformer with a Jensen JT-123-BMCF.

There's yer bass.
Old 15th June 2015
  #18
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id like to keep the same output transformer, as my other Channel has the same output tranny and plenty of bass
Old 15th June 2015
  #19
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Have the electrolytics ever been replaced in your 1272? If not, replace them all and the bass will come back. Just recapped a 33609 with one side that was rolling off low end, now both sides match again.
Old 16th June 2015
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Replace the output transformer with a Jensen JT-123-BMCF.
There's yer bass.
Jim, good to know you are still getting favorable dealer pricing from Jensen's new owners.
How about a hookup diagram showing your method of implementing those quadfilar transformers in Neve circuitry ?
Old 16th June 2015
  #21
Follow the Jensen data sheet and connect it 1/2 ratio. Easy to do. You think you have bass and then you find out you really didn't. The tops are far smoother as well. Expensive, but worth it.
Old 17th June 2015
  #22
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Which exact company does the replica of the vintage electrolytics??
Old 17th June 2015
  #23
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As previously posted the 'Philips' types are now 'BC' but from observation of various Neve modules, there were a variety of brands used. The difference between BRANDS is probably within the tolerance of several capacitors of the same brand. ALL will be slightly different to the originals. ALL would be better than the failing ones that are in there now.
Matt S
Old 19th June 2015
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
As previously posted the 'Philips' types are now 'BC' but from observation of various Neve modules, there were a variety of brands used. The difference between BRANDS is probably within the tolerance of several capacitors of the same brand. ALL will be slightly different to the originals. ALL would be better than the failing ones that are in there now.
Matt S
conflicting because other threads state BC VISHAY.... just saying
Old 19th June 2015
  #25
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Hi
I believe those that were Philips became BC and are now owned by Vishay.
It is the actual 'model' of capacitor you are looking for.
You are trying to recreate the Gettysburg speech, you can have actors in costume and the words, but the event is gone, history.
Matt S
Old 20th August 2015
  #26
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Ok, let me get this straight, Nichicons are compatible with Panasonic? I am recapping the stereo section of a Soundcraft Series 600. I am trying to piece together all the nuggets that Jim Williams left and its a little confusing. I have come across a bunch of Nichicon 220uF to replace all the 4.7uF caps in the stereo section. I will then bypass all those caps with a Wima.01uF. Does this sound right?
And possibly a dumb question but how exactly is the proper way to connect the bypass cap to the proper cap pins? Just wind them around ahead of time and then soldering the 220uF pins in the board while wicking the solder into the twisted together wires?


(BTW I am very sorry for the loss of Jim, he seemed like a special breed and a very sweet, smart guy.) :-(
Old 20th August 2015
  #27
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Hi
The Jim Williams that posts here is not dead or 'disappeared'.
The nuggets continue.
Matt S
Old 20th August 2015
  #28
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To add to the confusion, there are/were two different Jim Williams.
One involved in audio equipment design, the other (RIP) involved in integrated circuit design.
Old 20th August 2015
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JblKid95 View Post
Which exact company does the replica of the vintage electrolytics??
None...they don't exist.
And why would they....most were crap.
Old 20th August 2015
  #30
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Hi

[None...they don't exist.
And why would they....most were crap. ]

I think you will find they were OK and lived up to manufacturers specifications.
The issue would really be the 'incorrect' types were specified although I suppose in the day 'Neve' had not intended a 40 year lifespan for their gear.
If you wanted 'military grade' and longer term reliability you should have added another zero to the original price tag.
Matt S
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