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Push Button repair
Old 29th September 2009
  #1
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matskull's Avatar
 

Push Button repair

Hi, I just bought an old console and some of the push button switches don't stay pushed in anymore when I press them down, they still work if I keep my finger on them though.

Is it something that can be repaired?

Here's some pics of those switches.
I'm trying to find some "new" ones but in the meantime I'd like to know if I could repair those instead.

thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Push Button repair-img_2814.jpg   Push Button repair-img_2818.jpg   Push Button repair-img_2819.jpg   Push Button repair-img_2820.jpg  
Old 30th September 2009
  #2
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Hi. Yes they are repairable, those are standard pushbuttons found in many a commercial japanese audio equipment of the seventies-early eighties. Alps still makes them.

If they are not staying pushed in, I think you will find the problem is the little metal sliding plate has lost its capacity to spring back you need to look at the switch assembly from the front, and right next to the bracket (possibly behind the bracket) you will see the plate. It should have little openings for each switch stem that will latch to each stem. It could be that they need cleaning, or that the plate (about 1/4" wide by however long the assembly is) has lost a spring, whether it be a leaf or a compression type spring.

Let me know if you need anything else.

Lucky you, you seem to have a nice Midas!
2N
Old 30th September 2009
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2N1305 View Post
Hi. Yes they are repairable, those are standard pushbuttons found in many a commercial japanese audio equipment of the seventies-early eighties. Alps still makes them.

If they are not staying pushed in, I think you will find the problem is the little metal sliding plate has lost its capacity to spring back you need to look at the switch assembly from the front, and right next to the bracket (possibly behind the bracket) you will see the plate. It should have little openings for each switch stem that will latch to each stem. It could be that they need cleaning, or that the plate (about 1/4" wide by however long the assembly is) has lost a spring, whether it be a leaf or a compression type spring.

Let me know if you need anything else.

Lucky you, you seem to have a nice Midas!
2N
Wow thanks a lot for the answer, that makes my day.
I went on Alps website but I'm not sure which switch to look at exactly, could you post the link please?

I have very little knowledge in electronic, I'm trying to learn though and I'm pretty good at soldering at least

If we can find what switch I need exactly I will order a load of them.
thanks again
Old 8th October 2009
  #4
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Does it look like the switch I need?
PN42LENA02QE C&K Components Pushbutton Switches

2N1305 recommended it to me, it looks right but I'd like some other opinion, I'll try to repair mine but I'd like to get some spare just in case.
Old 8th October 2009
  #5
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vince @ speck's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Does it look like the switch I need?
PN42LENA02QE C&K Components Pushbutton Switches

2N1305 recommended it to me, it looks right but I'd like some other opinion, I'll try to repair mine but I'd like to get some spare just in case.
That's not same as the original. Not even close.

I think (not positive) your original was made by Centralab Switches. They are out-of-business and were taken over by Electroswitch. I don't think your switch is in production. Maybe somebody has NOS.

You can poke around this site and see if Electroswitch has anything Electroswitch Electronic Products

Contact Midas tech support. Tell them what you're looking for. Maybe they have a source.

If my memory serves me correctly... there was a French company that also made that switch.

P.S. They are not Alps either.
Old 8th October 2009
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vince @ speck View Post
That's not same as the original. Not even close.

I think (not positive) your original was made by Centralab Switches. They are out-of-business and were taken over by Electroswitch. I don't think your switch is in production. Maybe somebody has NOS.

You can poke around this site and see if Electroswitch has anything Electroswitch Electronic Products

Contact Midas tech support. Tell them what you're looking for. Maybe they have a source.

If my memory serves me correctly... there was a French company that also made that switch.

P.S. They are not Alps either.
I contacted Midas already and they can't really help me to find those switches.

I thought that the switch I have are in 2 parts, the button with the led in it and the actual switch, I only need the switch part because all of the led buttons work.

Did you think I was looking for the button?
Thanks for the info, I'll keep looking but I wiil definitely need to find some of those eventually.
Old 8th October 2009
  #7
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vince @ speck's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
I contacted Midas allready and they can't really help me to find those switches.

I thought that the switch I have are in 2 parts, the button with the led in it and the actual switch, I only need the switch part because all of the led buttons work.

Did you think I was looking for the button?
I know you a looking for the switch.

I recognize that switch. I think we used the same switch MANY years ago. Because of distribution issues, it just didn't make the cut for our future products. Other audio companies used that switch. I think maybe even early SSL's products.

If I can find an old part I'll post a photo.
Old 8th October 2009
  #8
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matskull's Avatar
 

Isn't there anything that could be used that is in current production?
thanks
Old 8th October 2009
  #9
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matskull's Avatar
 

Hey look what I found.

I don't know about the quality and I don't know if it has the good specs (can you tell me what specs I need?) but it looks extremely similar to my group switches.

2pcs Interlock Push Button Switch 4 Keys 2 poles w Ear - eBay (item 130331219655 end time Oct-15-09 02:52:31 PDT)


What do you think?
What specs should I be looking for if those don't work?
Any other opinions and suggestions will be greatly apprciated.

thanks
Old 8th October 2009
  #10
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Hi

They look like Dialistat switches to me... as used on Neve 81, 51 and V series.

They have plastic latch pins that break at any time... ITT in France stopped making them and scrapped the tooling.

I believe that Stanler Components in Braintree may have some versions of them in stock.

Stanler Components - Switches, Potentiometers, Relays, Solenoids and Connectors

Give them a try.

Old 8th October 2009
  #11
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

They look like Dialistat switches to me... as used on Neve 81, 51 and V series.

They have plastic latch pins that break at any time... ITT in France stopped making them and scrapped the tooling.

I believe that Stanler Components in Braintree may have some versions of them in stock.

Stanler Components - Switches, Potentiometers, Relays, Solenoids and Connectors

Give them a try.

Thanks Geoff,

when shopping for my switch, what do I have to look for?
Do you know what specs I need?

I only know that my group selection switches seems to be 2 poles and the cancel and PFL are believe are 4 poles.
Thank you
Old 8th October 2009
  #12
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Thanks Geoff,

when shopping for my switch, what do I have to look for?
Do you know what specs I need?

I only know that my group selection switches seems to be 2 poles and the cancel and PFL are believe are 4 poles.
Thank you
Hi

I hate those Dialistats and I imagine any console owner that has them shares my view. Not only are the plastic latch pins a major design flaw, the method of mounting them in a frame is not user friendly.

How these switches replaced the robust Isostat switches beats me and their final demise story is a typical French Farce.

Switches are easy to identify if you divide the number of pins by three to denote poles. So six pins is 2 pole, 12 pins is 4 pole.

Also, the switches were designed to be pcb mounted so consoles (like the 5316) where they were suspended by their chassis are more fragile.

I don't think Stanler have every permutation of the switch and I am surprised that they were able to find a supplier after the original moulds were scrapped.

You might also try customer support at AMS-Neve as they bought zillions to cover spares for their V series consoles.

Old 8th October 2009
  #13
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

I hate those Dialistats and I imagine any console owner that has them shares my view. Not only are the plastic latch pins a major design flaw, the method of mounting them in a frame is not user friendly.

How these switches replaced the robust Isostat switches beats me and their final demise story is a typical French Farce.

Switches are easy to identify if you divide the number of pins by three to denote poles. So six pins is 2 pole, 12 pins is 4 pole.

Also, the switches were designed to be pcb mounted so consoles (like the 5316) where they were suspended by their chassis are more fragile.

I don't think Stanler have every permutation of the switch and I am surprised that they were able to find a supplier after the original moulds were scrapped.

You might also try customer support at AMS-Neve as they bought zillions to cover spares for their V series consoles.

Yeah it's not really user friendly at all...
I think I'll let someone else replace mine or at least remove the faulty ones cause if I do it I'm pretty sure I'll break something.

I'll try neve, thanks for the tip.

Isn't it possible to replace those switches by something better?
I wouldn't mind to bend a couple of pins to make it fit if in the end I get a more reliable switch...

Thanks
Old 8th October 2009
  #14
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vince @ speck's Avatar
 

I suggest that you remove (desolder) a bank of those switches an see how you really feel about this refub before you go and buy a lot replacement parts.
Old 8th October 2009
  #15
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vince @ speck View Post
I suggest that you remove (desolder) a bank of those switches an see how you really feel about this refub before you go and buy a lot replacement parts.
I know I can remove a bank from the pcb pretty easily, that's not the problem.
If I feel like I can't replace only one switch in a bank of 4 for example, I'll bring all of the bank that have a faulty switch in them to my tech and he'll do it.

I still need to get those parts even if I don't do the job myself but it's a good advise.

Thanks
Old 8th October 2009
  #16
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
I know I can remove a bank from the pcb pretty easily, that's not the problem.
If I feel like I can't replace only one switch in a bank of 4 for example, I'll bring all of the bank that have a faulty switch in them to my tech and he'll do it.

I still need to get those parts even if I don't do the job myself but it's a good advise.

Thanks
Hi

The switches are a bugger to remove... don't underestimate the task.

You have to replace the whole row, I don't think you can change individual switches.

I was told by a tech at Neve, who shall remain nameless, that, on the big banks of switches you see on a V series, he would use a hacksaw blade between the switches and the pcb and then remove the stubs from the pcb.

Don't expect to just desolder the pins without wrecking the pcb with torn tracks!

tutt
Attached Images
Push Button repair-dialistat.jpg 
Old 8th October 2009
  #17
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

The switches are a bugger to remove... don't underestimate the task.

You have to replace the whole row, I don't think you can change individual switches.

I was told by a tech at Neve, who shall remain nameless, that, on the big banks of switches you see on a V series, he would use a hacksaw blade between the switches and the pcb and then remove the stubs from the pcb.

Don't expect to just desolder the pins without wrecking the pcb with torn tracks!

tutt
Yeah I cut the pins to remove stuff from a pcb in the past, worked well.
So you don't think I can remove all of the solder and remove it safely without damaging the track?
I might cut them if I have to, one thing is sure it that I won't do anything is I feel it's unsafe.

I have been told that it is possible to change only one switch by bending the metal rail... I don't know if it's true.

Thanks
Old 8th October 2009
  #18
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
Yeah I cut the pins to remove stuff from a pcb in the past, worked well.
So you don't think I can remove all of the solder and remove it safely without damaging the track?
I might cut them if I have to, one thing is sure it that I won't do anything is I feel it's unsafe.

I have been told that it is possible to change only one switch by bending the metal rail... I don't know if it's true.

Thanks
Hi

I believe the latch pin is held in by that rail... so if you bend and distort the rail you may mess up adjacent switches that did latch.

That's why you have to change the entire bank to fix one switch.

You might look at Devlin and Alps switches for some kind of alternative but it won't be an easy task.

I agree with Vince... just try desoldering one bank without damaging the board and work out the time and cost of the repair.

You may have a boat anchor there....

Old 8th October 2009
  #19
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

I believe the latch pin is held in by that rail... so if you bend and distort the rail you may mess up adjacent switches that did latch.

That's why you have to change the entire bank to fix one switch.

You might look at Devlin and Alps switches for some kind of alternative but it won't be an easy task.

I agree with Vince... just try desoldering one bank without damaging the board and work out the time and cost of the repair.

You may have a boat anchor there....

When I'll be ready I'll try on a spare module first.
I just got the console, it's awesome, it just needs some work and i'll get it done, I'm sure it will give me years of good service if I take care of it well.

Thanks again
Old 8th October 2009
  #20
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
When I'll be ready I'll try on a spare module first.
I just got the console, it's awesome, it just needs some work and i'll get it done, I'm sure it will give me years of good service if I take care of it well.

Thanks again
Hi

You are very welcome and good luck!

Old 13th October 2009
  #21
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I talked to stanler and they don't have the 2 poles version anymore, they still have the 4 poles version though and they suggest that maybe (if it fits) I could replace my 2 poles with 4 poles and cut the extra poles.

I'm still waiting to know if they sell them in package of 4 like on my console.

Otherwise I think I could order the pact of 4 I found on ebay and see if it fits, who knows...
I could also order a couple of other switches to see if any of them fits.

Would it be a good idea or do I risk to break something doing this?
Thanks
Old 15th October 2009
  #22
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From what I see in the photos the switch is offset from the knob part. Is that to accommodate illumination?

I'm sure there's a way to replace these switches but the aesthetic will not be the same. The main thing is to get the console working. Worry about looks later.

Do you know what the pin spacing for the pcb pins is?

Jim
Old 15th October 2009
  #23
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluzzi View Post
From what I see in the photos the switch is offset from the knob part. Is that to accommodate illumination?

I'm sure there's a way to replace these switches but the aesthetic will not be the same. The main thing is to get the console working. Worry about looks later.

Do you know what the pin spacing for the pcb pins is?

Jim
I'd have to measure the spacing, not sure yet.
Yeas the button and the switch are "offset", from what I understand they can be seperated from each other so I can replace the switch and keep the led button.
I really only need to find a switch that will fit I think.
Old 15th October 2009
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matskull View Post
I'd have to measure the spacing, not sure yet.
Yeas the button and the switch are "offset", from what I understand they can be seperated from each other so I can replace the switch and keep the led button.
I really only need to find a switch that will fit I think.
Hi

No promises that it's even close but these are nice switches...

These are illuminated....

http://www.devlincomponents.co.uk/datasheets/PVL.pdf

You'll find non-illuminated here...

Devlin Components and Power Supplies

Old 15th October 2009
  #25
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Hi
With a spot of 'lateral thinking' it may actually be cheaper to reengineer the pcb so that you can use a more standard switch such as the ALPS.
I happen to have a reasonable pile of these original switches (on original manufacturers plastic rails) but they are from 1985. They are Dialistat or Isostat I could never remember which.
If necessary you could redesign the PCB using free cad software and use readily available switches probably for less than buying 'NOS' switches which by definition will be getting on a bit. You don't need to redesign the circuit, you would just be copying, but the mounting hole locations may need 'moving about' to get the switch pins and LEDs to line up.
Maybe if you did that you could offer them to others with the same modules although finding the custom may be difficult.
ScotchMcNeil should have these switches but I don't know how many.
Good luck
Matt S
Old 15th October 2009
  #26
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Hi

Just for the record, Isostat switches are larger (they can only squeeze into 10mm pitch) and have stronger steel brackets and steel latch pins.

Dialistats, spawn of Satan, are smaller (can squeeze to 8mm pitch), have more flimsy brackets and horrid plastic latch pins that break if you even look at them... well almost...

Images of both here...

Stanler Components - Switches, Potentiometers, Relays, Solenoids and Connectors

Old 16th October 2009
  #27
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
With a spot of 'lateral thinking' it may actually be cheaper to reengineer the pcb so that you can use a more standard switch such as the ALPS.
I happen to have a reasonable pile of these original switches (on original manufacturers plastic rails) but they are from 1985. They are Dialistat or Isostat I could never remember which.
If necessary you could redesign the PCB using free cad software and use readily available switches probably for less than buying 'NOS' switches which by definition will be getting on a bit. You don't need to redesign the circuit, you would just be copying, but the mounting hole locations may need 'moving about' to get the switch pins and LEDs to line up.
Maybe if you did that you could offer them to others with the same modules although finding the custom may be difficult.
ScotchMcNeil should have these switches but I don't know how many.
Good luck
Matt S
That could be a solution, never thought about it, thanks.

If you look at the first and second pictures you can see that the switches aren't right under the led button, those are two different parts and they seem to rely on the metal rail to fit together.

So I think that if I can find a switch that has the same footprint, I should be able to replace the broken one, it might be a little bit of work but it's worth a try.

I'm not ready to repair them yet, my tech is on vacation and the bigest montreal tech seems busy right now.
But I'll keep all those info and suggestions in mind.

thanks
Old 16th October 2009
  #28
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post
Hi

Just for the record, Isostat switches are larger (they can only squeeze into 10mm pitch) and have stronger steel brackets and steel latch pins.

Dialistats, spawn of Satan, are smaller (can squeeze to 8mm pitch), have more flimsy brackets and horrid plastic latch pins that break if you even look at them... well almost...

Images of both here...

Stanler Components - Switches, Potentiometers, Relays, Solenoids and Connectors

It sucks that they used those bad switches as much.

To be honest though there's almost 600 switches in my console and not even 10 are broken so it's not that bad when you think about it that way.
Old 16th October 2009
  #29
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Hi
I have the Dialostats, the smaller ones with aluminium brackets.
I believe the Isostats are a more 'standard' footprint so there are alternatives.
Single ALPS will probably fit and can be obtained from Farnell in the UL Newark and I presume Digikey in USA. It may be worth lashing out on a small handful and try to fix one module.
Matt S
Old 16th October 2009
  #30
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matskull's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
I have the Dialostats, the smaller ones with aluminium brackets.
I believe the Isostats are a more 'standard' footprint so there are alternatives.
Single ALPS will probably fit and can be obtained from Farnell in the UL Newark and I presume Digikey in USA. It may be worth lashing out on a small handful and try to fix one module.
Matt S
Geoff seems to believe that my switches are the Dialostats.
Stanler have the 4 poles version, maybe that would fit to replace my 2 poles if I cut the extra pins.

I got a contact that used to have spare parts for vintage midas console, I'll talk to him and see what he has.

Do you have the 2 poles version? (the one with the blue part on it)
Maybe I could buy some from you if you don't need them of course.

Thanks
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