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mod a ramsa wr-s4416 wr-s4424
Old 2nd June 2009
  #1
mod a ramsa wr-s4416 wr-s4424

this seems to be an ideal candidate to turn into a stunner. good bones but hopeing i can make it shine. i love the configuration and the inserts and direct outs are perfect...so, i don't want to mess with the pres, i don't track through a console. i do want to see if i can get the midrange sweep down to 70Hz (now it stops at 200) and want to get the line amps and master section rocking. EQ is last priority so if i can make it work ill toggle it out.

anybody try anything like this? jim? my initial tack is to get candidates for line opamps and cap replacements. looking for recommendations.
Old 18th June 2009
  #2
i bought the service manual for this and there are NJM2068DD opamps in the line section, eqs, and master section.

im thinking of bypassing the eqs and using LM4562s which i have to buy at 5$ a peice. i have a few OPA2604, OPA2134, AD826and LM6172s on the bench and current doesn't seem to be an issue but the difference between bipolar and FET may cause some problems. what should i be after?

thanks
Old 20th June 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 
rty5150's Avatar
 

i'd like to see more on this. i personally own 2 4424's and 1 4416 as to cannibalize it for the 2 4424's. i'd love to see what an opamp upgrade would do. i don't want to bypass the eq's, but was wondering what caps i would have to replace with what values to open up the frequency range. mainly the mid sweep and get a 100hz low end shelf vs. the 70hz from factory.
i haven't dug too deep into the board, but have moved a couple of strips around and would like to know if any tranny swaps or resistor snips could open up this board. the preamps are incredible for the price these things are going for. i have less than $500 invested in all 3 boards. i would have paid alot more for the quality of preamps these things have. the only drawback for them is the 4 bus, 4 aux setup. coming form the ultra flexible behringer mx3282a that had 8 each, it was a humbling experience, but the sonic quality is light years from the behringer.


rich
Old 15th December 2009
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Hi buschfsu,

Can you tell me what was the result on the mod??? I bought a Ramsa WR-8112 a couple of weeks ago and I'm think of modding it.
What was like your experience??? Did you found some good opamps and caps replacements??
Hope you respond, cause the post is 4 years old now.
Thanks!!

Sam
Old 15th December 2009
  #5
Hey man. No I did this a few months ago. Not 4 years. I used opa2134s for the line mic amps and ne5532 for the eqs. Also did wimas for the eq caps. The lytics were elmas so I left em. Used opa2604s for the groups for warmer sound. I love it. Can't rember the part number for the master bus l and r. They were 4bucks a pop. I'll look em up
Old 5th February 2010
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Thanks man. Seems I was having a good day the 15th Dec.
I'm more interested in modding the modules than the master section. I'm using this board for tracking drums into a modded 002.
Did you try balancing the direct outs??
Or yours has balanced outs?
Did you work on the PS?
Sorry for all the questions, but's kind of hard getting info on modding these boards on a google search.

Samheh
Old 5th February 2010
  #7
yeah ill look up the chips i used in the master section. didn't mess with sends or balancing. the PSU looks plenty capable and the grounding scheme is sound so i left it. its able to handle the extra current load of the faster chips with no problem.
Old 9th February 2010
  #8
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Thanks buschfsu!!! Did your board had also JRC 4560DD everywhere???
This is my first mod by my own and I have basic knowledges of electronics. What did you mean by wimas in the eq? Did you change a resistances or a cap for lowering the bandwith?
And I surely didn't get the lytics and the elmas.
As I mentioned before, I'm going to use this board mostly for tracking drums (I'll be using the D-outs all the time) and I want to get as close to a Chilton or a Studer as I can get... and If I keep dreaming...a Neve.
Would you choose the same opamps you put in for this task? Or would you change some for opa2604 to get a warmer sound right away? Maybe some other opamp?? Money is not a problem, I just want to do it right the first time.
I'll probably be sending the PS to someone to adapt the voltage and lower the noise floor if it's possible.
I haven't decided if I'm going to do the master section yet. What do you think?
Ones again, I'm really sorry for all these questions.
Thanks a lot for you time!!

Sam
Old 9th February 2010
  #9
yes but those arent the ones you should replace. the 4560s are the fader amps. wont make much difference. i bought the schematic collection from panasonic so i can help with this.

wimas are a well respected brand of capaictor that makes 5mm spaced film caps. sound great and they fit perfectly. read this post its how i figured all this out...

help with my ramsa eq

lytics is short for electrolytics,, there are a few kinds of capacitors.

film (small nonpolar usually good for audio)
electrolytic (ususally larger with a positive and negative leg..mostly good for power supplies filtering etc. not good for audio path elmas are decent for blocking dc in the audio path as are panasonic FC)
ceramic (very small nonpolar not good for audio path)

few more but thats enough to get you by...



from my perspective do the master first. dont mess with the psu its well built
2604s should be fine in the channels but may want a cleaner 2134 for a few channels keep in mind warmer sometimes means less focused and fuzzy. this desk to me should be clean so my pres and outboard can color the sound and the desk gets out of the way. i put 2604s in the busses for comps etc.. just get rid of those 2068s

Also the actual mic preamp is discrete. This means instead of a chip its made up of a few transistors. i think its ok so i left it.


2134s channel amps
5532s eq amp
4560s (stock) fader amps
2604s group buss amps
LM4562 2 per channel for the master section

and i jumpered some of the dc blocking caps pre and post eq.


im very happy with mine. especially the eq. better than most plugins
if you want i can send some schematics but they are pretty big.
Old 10th February 2010
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
I looked again the strips and I found out that they have been already changed. All the opamps in every ch strip are 4560s. Some with the extention 4311, others with 4901. There are even differents ch strips than in the same position, some have 4311s extention while others have 4901. But all the opamps are 4560s.
There are +o- 6 or 7 opamps per strip.
I'll try to upload some photos tomorrow!
Thank you very much for the quick guide, it's been of much help!!! thumbsup

Sam
Old 11th February 2010
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Well, here are some photos. They are not great but they'll do.
Looked into the service manual and all opamps that match the replacements should be 4560s from origine.
Yet I'm not quite sure which are which. They are numbered as IC101 to IC108, being 108 the nearest to the fader.
Any idea how to identify them correctly?? I'm having a tough time trying to figure out the input circuit diagram.
Thanks again!

Sam
Attached Thumbnails
mod a ramsa wr-s4416 wr-s4424-close-view.jpg   mod a ramsa wr-s4416 wr-s4424-open-view.jpg  
Old 11th February 2010
  #12
oh 8112 that is a different model. sorry i thought you were talking about the wr-s4412 (the original post is about the WR line)

do you have the channel schematic? send it to me and ill let you know
Old 12th February 2010
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Well tried to upload the service manual, but I couldn't.
Here is an older thread where I posted the service manual.

Ramsa WR-8112 vs Amek/TAC Scorpion 12 channels

Thanks again for the help!!

Sam
Old 19th February 2010
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Sorry to bother you buschfsu.
Did you have any spare time to take a look on the channel schema?

Sam
Old 19th February 2010
  #15
Gear Addict
I think it's page 19 in that PDF of yours. That's where the gold is as far as understanding what does what.

IC101 in conjunction with Q101-104 are your mic preamp. Before the active circuitry there's DC blocking caps C113-114. It's interesting to note that the preamp looks like it's fully balanced until it hits the first side of IC102.

IC102 is your mic debalancer/buffer and line input buffer. C117 and C157 follow the outputs of those two for DC blocking into the next stage.

IC103-106 are you EQ section and buffers.

IC107-108 are amps/buffers for sending your signal through the rest of the board.

Pretty much all of the 47uf/63V caps are "coupling" caps, linking one section of the mixer to the next. It's an old board. Replace those. I don't know if I'd "upsize" them or not. With the exception of C113-114, the voltage doesn't matter. You could put 100uf in or larger even if you wanted. It will shift the LF roll-off of the circuit around and provide for better phase response in the portion of the audio band we care about. It's really not worth going crazy there though. The tweakers would add a 0.01uf film cap across them to allow the "air" to come through.

As far as what to do with the opamps...

I dunno...Pick your poison. Watch the current consumption. Have fun.

A few things to note...In the preamp/EQ section...The only "local" capacitance on the supply rails is on IC106 (10uf/25v). That would be considered a little weak in some circles. Adding in more local capacitance might be nice but watch out because too much can put alot of strain on the PSU when you first power up the board.

Also...If you do decide to "upgrade" the opamps, you really need to add in some 0.01uf caps from each supply rail to ground to help prevent the opamps from oscillating. If you don't have a scope to check for the oscillation, you probably don't need to replace the opamps.

Given the quality of the circuit boards, and the schematic...Is it really worth "upgrading" this thing? It's not awful....But for the time and money...I'd say you could do better to start with.

I know I might get uncool points for suggesting this...At it's best, this board really can't be much better than a new MixWiz can it?
Old 19th February 2010
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Thanks effitall!!!
I thought I could get this thing sounding beautifully!!! Nowing that is kind of legendary as is a near model to the WR-T820 that made some great things during the years as Nirvana's "Bleach" and some of the first Soundgarden's EPs.
Thought it was definitely the board to buy to get some rock out of it.
I like some colored dust in my pres, but not too much. Thought the answer was modding this little thing and making it sound a bit cleaner.
Guess I should have listen the old guys and buy the Scorpion although it was 3 or 4 times the money of the Ramsa.
And the worst thing started floating when my tech guy said he was too busy to make the mod. So now I'm on my own with this. I'm not that experience so I think I'll ask a friend to do the measurements for me and I'll do the rest.
I surely can manage soldering, but no way I can read a schema like you guys do.
Thanks for the info effitall!!!
I'm against the ropes now and I think I'll go all the way!!!

Sam
Old 19th February 2010
  #17
Gear Addict
That's cool. I wouldn't want to completely rain on your parade...Just offering some thoughts. You need to figure out what you want to use the board for, and then "upgrade" those signal paths.

For instance...If you wanted it for mic pre's only, obviously you'd find the shortest path from mic input to some output (direct outputs in this case) and upgrade everything you think is sub-standard in that path. Like-wise, if you really just want to use it as a line-mixer for summing, you need to upgrade everything in the line path, sub groups and mix buss.

One of the things that makes it a little awkward is the use of dual opamps and splitting them across different sections. For instance, IC 106 is not only a non-inverting buffer between the input section and fader, but also the mid-range EQ circuit (If I'm reading that right).

Pages 13-17 show you the block diagram signal path of your board. Study that carefully. Think about what you want to use the board for and study the block diagram to figure out which sections you need to upgrade.

Upgrade the OUTPUT sections first. Chances are you won't really hear much improvement in the mic pre if you're still running through the stock master section.

Might I also suggest that you seem to have purchased this board based on its legendary sound. Any upgrades you perform to it will undoubtedly change that sound. Whether it makes it better or not will be up to you to decide. But let's discuss that for a sec...

Changing the opamps to more modern, high-bandwidth types, will clean up the "grunge" in the board, lowering noise and distortion. It will most definitely change the character of the board and most likely make it have less of a sound (or at least less of the sound that it's known for).

Perhaps go through and replace the coupling caps and all the PSU/local power caps first. This will run about $75 to $150 or so and will give you hours of work that would have to be done whether or not you choose to change the opamps.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
Samuelito's Avatar
Hi,

Sorry I took too long to answer. Been kinda of busy lately and left the board a side for a while.
Took over today to study carefully the schemas.
I'm changing the coupling caps first.
I have 2 in mind. Which do u think is best??
Hope I choosed correctly.

Wimas 100uf 100v

Elma 100uf 100v

I'm still thinking on that IC106. If I change the opamps, should I choose for IC106 the same opamp as the preamp section or an opamp from the EQ section?? Or something different?

And one more thing I didn't understand effitall. What's the supply rail to ground?? Did you mean ground connection. ALmost no technical language here. Sorry.

Thx again for all the help!!!

Sam
Old 1st April 2011
  #19
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by buschfsu View Post
yes but those arent the ones you should replace. the 4560s are the fader amps. wont make much difference. i bought the schematic collection from panasonic so i can help with this.

wimas are a well respected brand of capaictor that makes 5mm spaced film caps. sound great and they fit perfectly. read this post its how i figured all this out...

help with my ramsa eq

lytics is short for electrolytics,, there are a few kinds of capacitors.

film (small nonpolar usually good for audio)
electrolytic (ususally larger with a positive and negative leg..mostly good for power supplies filtering etc. not good for audio path elmas are decent for blocking dc in the audio path as are panasonic FC)
ceramic (very small nonpolar not good for audio path)

few more but thats enough to get you by...



from my perspective do the master first. dont mess with the psu its well built
2604s should be fine in the channels but may want a cleaner 2134 for a few channels keep in mind warmer sometimes means less focused and fuzzy. this desk to me should be clean so my pres and outboard can color the sound and the desk gets out of the way. i put 2604s in the busses for comps etc.. just get rid of those 2068s

Also the actual mic preamp is discrete. This means instead of a chip its made up of a few transistors. i think its ok so i left it.


2134s channel amps
5532s eq amp
4560s (stock) fader amps
2604s group buss amps
LM4562 2 per channel for the master section

and i jumpered some of the dc blocking caps pre and post eq.


im very happy with mine. especially the eq. better than most plugins
if you want i can send some schematics but they are pretty big.
Hi, I just found this old thread. I am trying to upgrade my Ramsa WR-S4424, and I am wondering if the op amps you listed here were just "drop in" or if you needed to to do other mods to make them work? Really appreciate any help, Thanks!
Old 2nd May 2011
  #20
Here for the gear
 

Hi buschfsu,

I have been asked to repair a RAMSA WR-S4424 that has numerous faults but is still working (just!). I am having difficulty obtaining schematics for it's repair in Australia. Would you be kind enough to send me the schematics you offered Samuelito, or advise where I might be able to obtain them?

Thanks,
Greg

Quote:
Originally Posted by buschfsu View Post
if you want i can send some schematics but they are pretty big.
Old 4th November 2011
  #21
Gear Nut
 

I have just finished these upgrades (but not the EQ caps). I also upgraded the fader op amp to OPA2134 on a recommendation from a tech. I only did 12 of 24 channels and the master/group section. I noticed a difference right away. I can't hear any difference between the individual channels when A/B'ing the modded vs. the unmodded, but the master outs have a brighter and cleaner sound, and some of the murkiness in the low-mids has cleared up (the weakest area of this board). I am really happy with the changes, and recommend them to anyone that has this board. Not very costly (a little less that $100). Thanks very much to buscfsu for posting his suggestions!

Now I am anxious to do more upgrades. Any suggestions?

(I might try to bypass the EQ completely on 8 channels, and just use outboard EQ when I need some.)
Old 17th February 2013
  #22
Here for the gear
 

Tascam m1516 vs Ramsa WR S4416S

Hello i m hesitating between those to mixing boards Tascam M1516 and the Ramsa WR S 4416S
i make some DUb music but not only so .... if any one had good advise for me i d be very pleased
Thanks a lot
Old 27th February 2013
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannny View Post
Thanks very much to buscfsu for posting his suggestions!
Old 10th March 2013
  #24
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by globalpurpose View Post
Hello i m hesitating between those to mixing boards Tascam M1516 and the Ramsa WR S 4416S
i make some DUb music but not only so .... if any one had good advise for me i d be very pleased
Thanks a lot
I can't see the Tascam beating out the Ramsa.
Old 6th September 2013
  #25
Here for the gear
 

OK, I'm in. I've been using my Ramsa for about 10 months. What you describe is worth the work to me. I love the mixer's capabilities & overall sound. If what you describe can be done to my Ramsa I'm putting it on my 2014 project calendar!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannny View Post
I have just finished these upgrades (but not the EQ caps). I also upgraded the fader op amp to OPA2134 on a recommendation from a tech. I only did 12 of 24 channels and the master/group section. I noticed a difference right away. I can't hear any difference between the individual channels when A/B'ing the modded vs. the unmodded, but the master outs have a brighter and cleaner sound, and some of the murkiness in the low-mids has cleared up (the weakest area of this board). I am really happy with the changes, and recommend them to anyone that has this board. Not very costly (a little less that $100). Thanks very much to buscfsu for posting his suggestions!

Now I am anxious to do more upgrades. Any suggestions?

(I might try to bypass the EQ completely on 8 channels, and just use outboard EQ when I need some.)
Old 2nd March 2014
  #26
Here for the gear
 

Thank you so much for the wealth of information located in this thread.
Old 17th March 2014
  #27
Gear Head
 
drumsandcymbals8's Avatar
 

Using the info is this thread, this last weekend I modded the output section of my ramsa wr-r4412. I removed the ic1 and ic2 2068's in master L & R and replaced them with dip sockets and AD8512 opamps on brown dog adapters. The result is stunning! The frequency spectrum opened up on the extremes, transient response improved dramatically, and the murky lowmids cleared up.

I totally recommend this mod! Next up are the main opamps on the input channels and the headphone opamp. Thanks everyone for your info!
Old 17th March 2014
  #28
glad you like it! the eq really cleans up to if you go that far.
Old 17th March 2014
  #29
i can post the schematics to groupdiy if anyone is interested
Old 19th March 2014
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Yes please!
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