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RoHS Directive
Old 30th August 2006
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Lets hope the masters of the Fatherland sink under the weight of all that lead they are supposed to protect us from.

I just got a preliminary report from a testing firm in So. Cal doing testing on the new Basson guitar amps. It's true! The lead content is based on gross weight. These puppies have a couple of 15 pound transformers in them. Looks like the lead might stay after it's weighed. Here's my solution: More Iron! The more iron, the more lead you can slide through. And to think I was worried about the tin/lead coating on a Cornel Dublier silver mica capacitor.

Like life itself, it's all about the loopholes. Exploit them, it's the American Way.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Regret that the RoHS measuments are for homegenious samples where each component or item is broken down into its constituant parts (e.g. metal, plastic, silicon, glass, etc.) and then each part is measured.

So a transformer would be disassembled into laminations, wire, bobbin, etc and every bit has to be compliant in it's own right.

I would hope that there isn't too much lead in silicon grain orientated steel.

Best wishes,
Susan.
Old 30th August 2006
  #182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Lets hope the masters of the Fatherland sink under the weight of all that lead they are supposed to protect us from.
I'm not sure the Germans were the ones pushing for RoHS.
Old 31st August 2006
  #183
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ulysses's Avatar
Yeah, the language in the RoHS documentation talks about materials that cannot be "mechanically separated". So you would consider the enamel on a resistor separately from its leads. You would definitely consider the traces of a circuitboard separately from the laminate, though I don't know if you would consider the solder coating separately from the copper traces.
Old 31st August 2006
  #184
Quote:
Originally Posted by ulysses View Post
Yeah, the language in the RoHS documentation talks about materials that cannot be "mechanically separated". So you would consider the enamel on a resistor separately from its leads. You would definitely consider the traces of a circuitboard separately from the laminate, though I don't know if you would consider the solder coating separately from the copper traces.
It's tempting to see if anyone over there would actually have the equipment to break a resistor down to the non-homogenious parts and measure the lead. Maybe they have those in customs now... Oh yea, they have only stopped us from bringing water onto a plane because they can't detect liquids. This will be an exciting year.

We shipped our first complete RoHS Tonelux system to England and IT WENT THROUGH!!!
Old 31st August 2006
  #185
No wait! I have it!


They are going to use one of those things they use to separate chicken. You know "mechanically separated chicken and chicken parts". I bet Slim Jim is behind this whole thing. Damn.
Old 31st August 2006
  #186
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

SORRY WE'RE NOT HOME RIGHT NOW...

Sorry, no one is available to take your call. Please try again later. I am taking apart a resistor and transformer to measure the lead percentage. After this, I am taking apart a potentiometer and going thru the 10 odd "homogenous" parts one by one to make sure they are Rohs. After that, Im taking apart my XLR connectors to find out how much lead is in them.... We have some zinc plated screws to check out too. We are very very busy and apologize for not taking your calls....


If you are calling from Europe about your delivery date, call back later.... much much later. Eventually we may even have new products after we have re-designed our old ones and specified all new parts, on all new boards, with all new solder that has no history of reliability.

Please leave a message afer the GRrrrrrrrr....
Old 1st September 2006
  #187
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brianroth's Avatar
 

Sounds like a ton of "busy work" that will keep the Eurocrats (and their children and distantly ******** relatives, including the "The Earl of Poobah" and the "Duke of Sillywalk" and "Lord Bucktooth") fully employed for a century or three...

As for me, I will totally avoid any Euro-Entanglements. But, I am also NOT trying to sell anything to the Euro market...and will never try. Screw them as they jump off a cliff in the world marketplace.

Bri
Old 1st September 2006
  #188
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ulysses's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianroth View Post
Screw them as they jump off a cliff in the world marketplace.
It's interesting you should say that, because as far as they're concerned (and I would tend to agree), if a manufacturer is willing to just walk away from three quarters of a billion people over a minor technical requirement, then that manufacturer is the one jumping off the marketplace cliff. There are more of them (Europeans) than there are of us (North Americans), and these new requirements are only going to expand and include other markets, eventually to include the US. Brian, maybe you don't consider yourself a manufacturer in the sense of building things for sale readily available to the worldwide pro audio market at large, and that's fine. Custom work isn't covered by the RoHS anyway. But every time I hear about another business that is unwilling to bother with the hassles of dealing with a global market, I just think to myself, "well, good." Competition drives innovation, but the money goes to the people who are willing to do business. I've only got one of my two products compliant and shipping to the EU so far, but it's only the one or two parts suppliers with the same "screw them" attitude that are holding me back on getting my compressor out there.
Old 2nd September 2006
  #189
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

IF I WAS KING....

"If I was King" as my brother likes to say, I would have made Rohs very simple, and reasonable.

ALL NEW PRODUCTS INTRODUCED INTO EUROPE MUST MEET ROHS COMPLIANCY.

The Key word here is NEW. This would mean new designs, new models etc.

But even this doesn't take into the account that the research over Lead leeching into ground water was flawed. Nor does it take into account that they really don't have a solder that has a history of workability, reliability or safety. Unfortunately, Im more worried now about reliablility and workability of the new solders than I was a couple months ago. You know, the original solders didnt have lead in them and they had problems with melting temps, solder flow, brittle cracking and aging, as well as something called solder whiskers.

Then they introduced lead into solder and all those problems went away!

Now they really ARE BACK. Hopefully they will keep improving the solder till its almost as good as the lead solder but ... try soldering wire onto a big ground lug, or the ground of a phone jack with the new "lead free" solder, and getting the nice smooth bead you get with leaded solder. Its not a pleasant learning experience.

IM all for environmental thinking, but do you pass laws that force "non-consumer" products that may never end up in a landfill, into using less reliable, more expensive, difficult-to-use technologies? And do you know that the new technologies and the chemicals makeup of the components is actually easier and safer on the environment? Well personally, I would NOT put money on it. I think its a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and political posturing without good, time tested research to back it up.

If I WAS KING...
Old 2nd September 2006
  #190
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Geoff_T's Avatar
 

Quote:
Dave Derr
But even this doesn't take into the account that the research over Lead leeching into ground water was flawed.
Hi

I recall reading many years ago that adding fluoride to drinking water released the lead in the solder of capillary soldered pipe joints (and other lead fittings) and allowed it to seep into the water.

E.G. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=25017

This has been going on for decades.

Perhaps this caused the brain damage that created the ROHS in its present form?

PS At 60 years old, I come from an era of lead water pipes, lead painted toys, lead toy soldiers, lead glue tubes, lead 0.22 and 0.177 air gun pellets and lead fishing line weights, etc. It's funny how 60 year olds are so healthy that they are looked upon as the "new" 40! heh

Old 2nd September 2006
  #191
After another discussion with Garwood labs, the certification Co. I feel even better about all of this crap. The lead weight is a percentage of the gross weight, not each component. So, those 15 lb. transformers are going to let us slide through residual lead. We will weigh a stuffed, but un-soldered pcb and subtract the lead percentage (37%) from a soldered, weighed pcb. I'm pretty sure all that iron will wash out the percentage.

One other note or "exemption". If the manufacturers take back disposed product, certification is not needed. So, we will send out with each amplifier a pre-paid return shipping form so when the owner decides to toss it, it will be shipped back instead of going into the landfill. Of course, resale and time will probably make most of these cards vanish, but that remains the responsibility of the buyer at that point, not the manufacturer.

Another "trick", if you're using aluminum chassis, switch to steel, the added weight might let that gross weight add up to the point of washing out the lead content percentage. I would consider placing a steel plate into a box if it got the percentage over the limits.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 2nd September 2006
  #192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
After another discussion with Garwood labs, the certification Co. I feel even better about all of this crap. The lead weight is a percentage of the gross weight, not each component. So, those 15 lb. transformers are going to let us slide through residual lead. We will weigh a stuffed, but un-soldered pcb and subtract the lead percentage (37%) from a soldered, weighed pcb. I'm pretty sure all that iron will wash out the percentage.
Actually, it is the "homogenized" part, which means that any part that can be removed without destroying it must be, including transformers. Toshiba has a white paper on this. It still means that if you solder a resistor that is tin-lead leads, after soldering it with silver solder, and clipping the leads, sucking out the part will remove a lot of the plating with the resistor, then what is left is the resistor, with cut leads, and the total weight of the part, less the thin plating is the ratio. It would be very hard to have more than .1% lead by volume that way.
Quote:

One other note or "exemption". If the manufacturers take back disposed product, certification is not needed. So, we will send out with each amplifier a pre-paid return shipping form so when the owner decides to toss it, it will be shipped back instead of going into the landfill. Of course, resale and time will probably make most of these cards vanish, but that remains the responsibility of the buyer at that point, not the manufacturer.
That is good, and it does not mean that the manufacturer is required to ship it back. It can be in the terms of the sale. That is the little trash can with the X through it. It means that it must be returned to the place of purchase for disposal. We have that on everything.
Quote:

Another "trick", if you're using aluminum chassis, switch to steel, the added weight might let that gross weight add up to the point of washing out the lead content percentage. I would consider placing a steel plate into a box if it got the percentage over the limits.
Read the Toshiba paper, I think I have a link to it earier in this thread. It does require you to remove anything that can be removed. This eliminates lead reflow PC boards.
Old 4th September 2006
  #193
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brianroth's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ulysses View Post
It's interesting you should say that, because as far as they're concerned (and I would tend to agree), if a manufacturer is willing to just walk away from three quarters of a billion people over a minor technical requirement, then that manufacturer is the one jumping off the marketplace cliff. There are more of them (Europeans) than there are of us (North Americans), and these new requirements are only going to expand and include other markets, eventually to include the US. Brian, maybe you don't consider yourself a manufacturer in the sense of building things for sale readily available to the worldwide pro audio market at large, and that's fine. Custom work isn't covered by the RoHS anyway. But every time I hear about another business that is unwilling to bother with the hassles of dealing with a global market, I just think to myself, "well, good." Competition drives innovation, but the money goes to the people who are willing to do business. I've only got one of my two products compliant and shipping to the EU so far, but it's only the one or two parts suppliers with the same "screw them" attitude that are holding me back on getting my compressor out there.

I have always tried to "be green" as best as I can in my own life, but when the Eurocrats allow CRTs and lead-acid batteries to be "allowed" while nit-picking the tiny amounts of lead on a circuit board inside of a audio-gizmo, I have to cry "FOUL". It's amazing how well money plays into this game...big guys can get away with tons of lead while small guys with tiny amounts are under the microscope.


Just my 2 cents...

Bri
Old 5th September 2006
  #194


Actually, there is considerable concern in the microprocessor industry (computers, cell-phones, sprinkler controllers.....) about the "lead-free" europe. And the big boys are spending considerable money trying to comply. They are not getting away with anything.

As for batteries: I don't know of any reliable technology that is lead and "poison" free. It would be sweet justice to see the europeans cut off from portable electronic devices and reliable car batteries. After all, it is the monster that they allowed to be created....

For CRTs, I don't see why the new LCD pannels aren't good enough. Unless they aren't reliable without lead solder......

I still worry about how much the poor parts of Asia will be contaminated with god-knows what new industrial wastes trying to make lead-less products more reliable. But at least it will keep a few pounds of lead out of Europe.

I don't see this being a particular problem for pro-audio - it seems like there are a few exemptions to drive though. For the pro-sumer stuff, it means more sales because the devices probably won't last as long as current models.




-tINY

Old 6th September 2006
  #195
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brianroth's Avatar
 

I still use a CRT with my ancient computer.

It's been paid-for for many years (5+), works just fine, has a wide viewing angle, and a "new replacement" CRT model is less expensive than any LCD I've seen recently.

I will agree that a new flat LCD looks a lot sexier on the CSI television shows versus my clunky CRT! <g>

Interestingly, an ex-employer of mine replaced a bunch of their CRTs with LCDs, and the failure rate of the LCDs has been high (from off-the-record conversations with the "IT Guys"). I wonder what disposal issues there are with the new-fangled LCDs that lasted maybe a year or two prior to failure.

Maybe they bought cheapie crap? I dunno...I wasn't there.

Bri
Old 6th September 2006
  #196
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianroth View Post
.... a "new replacement" CRT model is less expensive than any LCD I've seen recently.

....

... and the failure rate of the LCDs has been high (from off-the-record conversations with the "IT Guys"). I wonder what disposal issues there are with the new-fangled LCDs that lasted maybe a year or two prior to failure.



The point of RoHS is not better performance or inexpensive products....

I can assure you that the good LCD monitors work fine, use less power and will outlast the hard drive. They do cost more, and currently use lead in the solder.....



-tINY

Old 8th September 2006
  #197
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ulysses's Avatar
The biggest concerns with computer monitors are color accuracy, and ergonomics. Up until recently, CRTs won on the first count while the flat panels are big winners on the 2nd. Now that the price difference isn't gigantic, I'm more concerned with not spending 12 hours a day with a giant radiation cannon aimed at my head.
Old 8th September 2006
  #198
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vince @ speck's Avatar
 

There's a webcast sponsored by EMA Design Automation having to do with RoHS compliance. It's called "How to Survive a RoHS Compliance Audit".

Here's the link for a webcast overview and registration for any of you GS's that are interested. http://seminar2.techonline.com/s/ema_sep1206

I don't think Speck is at any risk of being audited but I'll be online to hear what they have to say. Since the July 1st deadline has past, I'm interested to know how aggressive (or not) the EU is getting concerning complicance. I'll try to ask some questions that a germane to smaller manufacturers.

Be advised that the sponser, EMA Deisgn also provides RoHS consulting & services.
Old 9th September 2006
  #199
Moderator
 
Tim Farrant's Avatar
 

Thanks Vince!
Old 15th September 2006
  #200
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

WE SHIPPED FIRST ROHS PRODUCT

Yippeeee Tie One On!

We now have one Rohs Compliant product finally. It's a 10K resistor ::wink::
Not really... Our FATSOs are now fully compliant. Distressors are up next, possibly within 2 -3 weeks. Our operations manager Judy, refused to ship anything NON-ROHS as ROHS, even though various individuals said they would be responsible, and even though we have heard of others "not worrying about it".

There has been a huge change in Rohs parts availability just in the last 3 months. A couple of our critical timing caps were not available in Rohs still, but we switched to a higher spec'd part (and MORE EXPENSIVE of course), and hope they will live up to their reputation.

There is transformer or two that we use, or may use, which may not be ROHS compliant. But we suspect they have very little lead in them except for the leads. When we get the rest of the product Rohs, and there is still no Rohs certification of the parts, we will scrape the leads a little to get the remaining lead off Fortunately, our power transformer is Rohs. Interestingly, the transformers in question are made in England and Sweden - EUROPEAN COUNTRIES! I'd bet they will be certified soon, and may well already meet Rohs specifications.

So did anyone see the Podcast? Hear anything new?

And how is everyone else coming along with compliancy?
Old 15th September 2006
  #201
Hey Dave,

While you were "waiting" they made audio illegal. Sorry man.
Old 15th September 2006
  #202
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

OH NO

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux View Post
Hey Dave,

While you were "waiting" they made audio illegal. Sorry man.
At first I was really freaking out about this, Paul. But then I thought "Well we can't really worry about that... if someone buys our equipment, and accidently passes illegal audio through it, it's not our fault." We have already consulted with a slime feeding...errr... with a lawyer.

We are, however, omitting the word "AUDIO" from all our literature and manuals.
Old 15th September 2006
  #203
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_T View Post

Perhaps this caused the brain damage that created the ROHS in its present form?
hahaha!
Old 20th October 2006
  #204
Moderator
 
Tim Farrant's Avatar
 

Goodbye

Well time to unstick this. Thanks for all the contributions and wealth of info!!

Cheers
Tim.
Old 20th October 2006
  #205
Before you all go thought I'd let you know that the Basson 120 amp head has been certified with sn/62 alloy solder (2% silver). Seems that weight percentage thing has allowed it to pass due to 30 lbs of iron in the transformers!

We are sending out a "return reciept" pre paid form with them as well just in case some Eurocrat decides to scrape lead.

I would like to know how that new silver/tin/copper solder is working for you guys as I have the next project without the "iron suppliment". I have heard about problems with tin wiskers and adhesion problems.

Comments?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 20th October 2006
  #206
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

HIya Jim!

Congrats on getting something to be Rohs! We have shipped our first products also.

We tried the copper/tin/silver and it seems to work ok, but melts lots higher and gets goopy and pointy fast. So far our technicians still seem to like the The Kester I mentioned (KESTER KS24-7040-7601, which has SN96.5AGO3.5 58/275 .031" written on the actual Roll of Solder). I will ask again about the copper stuff and maybe try a little bit myself.

Several people I know also insist that tin whiskers will come back. Harder materials are more susceptable to electro-migration and re-crystallization, which essentially means the molecules can be moved thru close electric fields and crystallize into a new position, quote possibly forming a short. I compare it to electroplating. Two close pads can act like an "anode and cathode", and since the solder is much harder and not maleable like leaded solder, the chance of migration and re-crystallizaion with the new lead free solders is very good.

The Military and Medical fields refuse to use lead free technology because of serious reliability issues. Theres really no history for the new solders, and if you look at the past history of un-leaded solders, well... IT WAS SO BAD THAT THEY ADDED LEAD TO THE SOLDERS!

The fact that Military and medical products cant use Rohs technology, prevents many robot assembly houses from moving to Rohs since they would have to dedicate a wave soldering machine just to lead free jobs, or lose the Military and Medical work.

I now strongly suspect that moving to Rohs has cost us $100K to 200K... and not all our products are yet Rohs compatable! We have had to even change our inventory and accounting procedures to allow for the production of basically different versions of our products. We have hundreds of thousands of non-rohs parts still in inventory. We had to basically respecify every single capacitor, which was a major pain to select in the first place.

But honestly, all this aside, my biggest worry is still reliability and longevity. We try to go for Zero Defect as much as we can, using long burn ins, vibration tests, and elaborate QC procedures. We have had less than 1% failure on some of our products, and usually it was a cap problem, or IC problem... things that are basically out of our control. I pray that our low failure rate doesnt go down the tubes.

Good to hear you have battled thru the guantlet Jim! Congrats
Old 20th October 2006
  #207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Before you all go thought I'd let you know that the Basson 120 amp head has been certified with sn/62 alloy solder (2% silver). Seems that weight percentage thing has allowed it to pass due to 30 lbs of iron in the transformers!

We are sending out a "return reciept" pre paid form with them as well just in case some Eurocrat decides to scrape lead.

I would like to know how that new silver/tin/copper solder is working for you guys as I have the next project without the "iron suppliment". I have heard about problems with tin wiskers and adhesion problems.

Comments?

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Be very careful with this. The definition states that all parts must be broken down to their homogenized part, removing any component that is not part of the assembly, and each part is then tested as it's own entity. In addition, the .1% lead by volume is ONLY a suggestion that has been agreed upon in principle but not yet ratified as law. There are rumors that it may not actually get passed.

So, in a situation where you have a PC board with a transformer on it, the transformer and any other parts need to be removed, then technically, the metal gets removed and ground up then separated and weighed.

Realistically speaking, if the PC board is lead free and the parts are lead free, and the solder is, then you have made every best attempt at getting it done.

A few leaded parts would probably get diluted enough with the lead free solder as to pass. If you use lead solder anywhere, they could very well cook you. There are several new products out that can sniff lead, cadmium, berillium, etc in parts per million. At some point, these will become common along with other sensors that will detect terrorist based substances.

The return receipt is pretty much a waver as it complies with the WEEE directive. THere are several proposals out there that will only allow WEEE for items that cannot be made to comply.

It's a tough road. It didn't cost 200K though...
Old 20th October 2006
  #208
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7 Hz's Avatar
I am wondering if the following points have been fully looked into for manufacturers of pro audio gear:

1. Return to manufacturer for disposal: Surely this is a really good rule that can be used to your advantage. Simply put a card in with the device (heck, engrave it onto the unit) saying:

Quote:
DISPOSAL OF THIS ITEM:
We expect this item to give years of service to you. If this item ever needs to be disposed of, please forward it to - AudioGear ltd, 123 Madeup Road, Somewheretown, Country - and we will dispose of it in an enviromentily frendly manner.
I dunno how many pieces of pro audio gear get disposed of, my guess is about ZERO% If they do get returned, just store them or sell them on again. Or, if you (the manufacturer) can't be bothered, find an agent that can. I am sure there are loads of service personnel that would love to have pro audio gear shipped to them for free.

2. Pro audio is NOT consumer equipment!

3. I very much doubt that the eurocrats are planning to chase after boutique manufacturers on this, I am sure it is more for all the consumer camcorders, DVD players etc.

That's my thoughts for today, I am dead sorry to all the USA companies that this is affecting, I hate the EU bureaucracy as much as you guys do.
Old 20th October 2006
  #209
Just for all's information:

The detailed and reasonable paper that Frank of GML submitted to the EU for consideration (stakeholder) was totally rejected, although it was looked at.

He offered several solutions, including 5 year warranties, not being consumer equipment and a cost point. He wasn't looking for exemptions, just a slight bit of wiggle room.

It was all rejected.

Go to http://www.ec.europa.eu/environment/...hs_consult.htm

There are many items listed including photo cells and whiskers on fine pitch parts. If you submit a reasonalble request for consideration, some may be delayed or relaxed.

Of course, they call it "Adaptation to technical progress..."
Old 20th October 2006
  #210
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToneLux View Post
Be very careful with this. The definition states that all parts must be broken down to their homogenized part, removing any component that is not part of the assembly, and each part is then tested as it's own entity. In addition, the .1% lead by volume is ONLY a suggestion that has been agreed upon in principle but not yet ratified as law. There are rumors that it may not actually get passed.

So, in a situation where you have a PC board with a transformer on it, the transformer and any other parts need to be removed, then technically, the metal gets removed and ground up then separated and weighed.

Realistically speaking, if the PC board is lead free and the parts are lead free, and the solder is, then you have made every best attempt at getting it done.

A few leaded parts would probably get diluted enough with the lead free solder as to pass. If you use lead solder anywhere, they could very well cook you. There are several new products out that can sniff lead, cadmium, berillium, etc in parts per million. At some point, these will become common along with other sensors that will detect terrorist based substances.

The return receipt is pretty much a waver as it complies with the WEEE directive. THere are several proposals out there that will only allow WEEE for items that cannot be made to comply.

It's a tough road. It didn't cost 200K though...
Yea, we went through all that, including weighing the pcb with parts, then weighing after soldering, calculating the difference, subtracting the 37% lead content, etc. Tin/lead wiring is included for the AC, the rest is exempt silver/teflon military wire. The only parts non RoHS are the Cornel Dublier silver mica caps. Fortunately, the certification lab has provided 3 volumes of data to exempt us, enough to keep a busy Eurocrat reading until his eyes pop out.

One way to beat these folks is to overwelm them with so much data they will need years to get through all of it while we sell our products in the meantime. Another way to beat them is to stop rewarding them with US foreign aid until they stop doing dumb stuff. (Like THAT will ever happen, nothing like rewarding countries for bad behavior, ei. N. Korea). Now I get to watch Kalifornia go through the same crap. A quick way to fix that would be to take away the socialist Kalifornia assembly's Blackberrys, RoHS would dissappear quick if it affected them.

Some gratitude in Europe after we saved their butts in WW1and 2! Next time, they're on they're own. Let the Eurocrats fight for them. I expect the Muslims to give them more pain down the road than we ever could.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
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