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RoHS Directive
Old 18th June 2006
  #91
Lives for gear
 

Hi
A fantastic thread so far, thanks to all the contributors.
I am afraid this is slightly 'off topic' but I do find it rather sickening that the EU and US govermnents are busy legislating to make things even more burocratic and threatening to fine or possibly imprison individuals for the use of relatively small quantities of 'dangerous substances' while on the other hand condoning the bombing and dispersal of uranium tipped explosives in Iraq, Afghanistan and various other areas, releasing significant quantities of toxic chemicals on others. Even the pointless waste of thousands of tons of oil.
I am not suggesting that efforts should not be made to curtail the landfill situation but as a recent TV report (in the UK) suggested, people are shipping quantities of old computers etc to places like China where for a pittance, workers with NO protection are reclaiming lead solder and other parts. The solution here is apparently 'officially claim it does not happen'.
I look forward to reading more on your column.
Matt S
Old 21st June 2006
  #92
Lives for gear
 
brianroth's Avatar
 

I'm just frustrated finding parts to build a custom gizmo, or do a simple repair/recap project.

It seems the supply line for various models and values of capacitors is NOT ready. Today, I had to substitute substitutes for substitutes in order to find a handfull of electrolytics to rebuild a Grommes tube-type mixer belonging to my client.

Many parts I originally picked from the catalog are "sold out" in the non-RoHS version, with compliant parts available in August/September or later.



Bri
Old 22nd June 2006
  #93
Gear Maniac
 
Peter Simonsen's Avatar
 

Hi to all,

In my fustration over the ROHS directive. I found this thread. I must say..while I at some point understand the reasons behind the ROHS directive..It really scares the living daylight out of me. We are at the moment working on starting a new small business in pro-audio. The ROHS does really not make things any eazier. I´m about to say that it nearly makes me wanna forget about it all ! I can clearly only try to understand the amount of frustration on a daily basis some of you must deal with regarding this matter. Now years of design, blood, sweat, tears and hard work ( not to speak of the money invested:-(...) are just about to go "down the drain". We can not by any chance have the unit ready for sale before July the 1st-2006. I hope for the best to come !!!

Man ohh man !!!

I wanna thank you all for your contribution, hard work etc on this matter.

Kind regards

Peter
Old 22nd June 2006
  #94
Lives for gear
 

Hi
I am in the same situation as Brian and Peter, my 'repairs' of old equipment are (gradually) funding my own projects. This has made it somewhat slower than I would have liked ideally but now with things 'ready to roll' the RoHS nonsense kicks in.
Matt S
Old 22nd June 2006
  #95
Same boat here. Still trying to figure how to deal with certain things.
Wires! All the tin/lead tinned wire is no good. The transformer manufacturers now need to wire the transformers with no lead tinned wire, any suggestions?

Some parts are going to be tough. I use Cornel Dublier silver mica caps for top EQ in the Basson Amps, CD has no intention of offering no lead tinning of the steel wires there. Is it possible the tiny amount of lead there could be declared and pass?

I used Ersyn MultiCore SN 62 2% silver solder. Any suggestions for lead free solders that flow well? Silver content is highly desired.

New stuff that's surface mount is pretty easy, it's the "vintage" style of constuction of these guitar amps that's causing the headaches.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 22nd June 2006
  #96
Lives for gear
 

Hi
I thought (to be confirmed) that for repairs of existing equipment that you can continue with leadded solder as before. It is the new components that are lead free that will be the problem or at least as you say Jim the components that are dropped rather than to manufacture the lead free versions.
The muddle and frustration continues.
Matt S
Old 23rd June 2006
  #97
Lives for gear
 
brianroth's Avatar
 

I am 98% certain that repairs aren't part of the idiotic RoHS directive.

Bri
Old 23rd June 2006
  #98
Lives for gear
 

Hi
Just got a 'flyer' from www.rapideonline.com and no, repairs are not restricted (although getting the parts will be increasingly more frustrating). Otherwise there are summaries of the legislation. I presume Farnell and RS will also have similar information as they rapidly 'dump' the kind of bits that Analogue pro audio need.
I only want a couple of 7 pin Din sockets for a Neve power supply but they are no longer stocked / made because of RoHS and popularity.
Matt S
Old 24th June 2006
  #99
Lives for gear
 
brianroth's Avatar
 

In a few recent cases, I've used RoHS compliant components with leaded solder for a repair and it SEEMS like the two were compatible.

It is my understanding that the opposite is NOT the case...non-RoHS parts with lead-free solder is a no-no.

Bri
Old 24th June 2006
  #100
In the old days, it was all silver solder, then, because it was so brittle and unreliable, they invented tin/lead solder...

You can solder anything with anything, and new lead free parts work fine in old stuff as long as it is the same. The lead will solder fine to lead free leads, and leads with lead will solder fine with silver solder.

There is a proposal floating that you will be able to have .1% of the weight of the board with lead, provided that you remove anything that is not soldered before weighing it.

This would allow for the few components that are not going to be compliant.

As far as parts not available, this is a mix of not wanting to bother and a chance to get rid "once and for all" old stock.

By the way, tubes are not included.

My advice, if you have that one part that you cant get, use a normal part and solder it with leadfree solder. No one is going to scrape the lead of one resistor and try to bust you with one resistor with a micron of lead on it.

Watch out for Japan, they are currently requiring even used equipment, including guitars, to meet the CE requirements before they can be sold if used, so they may do the same to some degree with RoHS.
Old 25th June 2006
  #101
Gear Head
 

This thread mostly focuses on imports to Europe. If I understand it correctly, California legislation AB 2202 would require that all products sold in California also meet the EU RoHS standards.

Next year, restrictions will also be put in place on products being sold. The SB 20 / SB 50 legislation states that beginning January 1, 2007 "covered electronic devices cannot be sold in California if prohibited for sale in the EU under the EU RoHS Directive." Additionally, AB 2202 is pending that would extend CA ‘RoHS’ to the same product scope as EU RoHS.” - http://www.reed-electronics.com/eb-m...icle/CA6345431
And it's not likely to stop in California. If you're familiar with how motor vehicle emissions laws in the U.S. have propagated, you can imagine that "California RoHS" legislation might soon be followed by "Massachusetts RoHS," "New York RoHS," and more.

AB 2202 has already passed the California State Assembly 42-38. Next up: A California State Senate Environmental Quality Committee hearing on June 26th, 2006 (tomorrow.)
Old 25th June 2006
  #102
RoHS is RoHS is RoHS. Once you are there, you are everywhere.

(even in your underwear)
Old 25th June 2006
  #103
Gear Head
 

A RoHS by any other name would be as lead-free?
Old 25th June 2006
  #104
Quote:
Originally Posted by zonkola
A RoHS by any other name would be as lead-free?
My sales rep at ITO PCB company has the last name or Rohs. She hates it now days...
Old 11th July 2006
  #105
Lives for gear
 

The BIG 7/1/06 come and gone

Has ANYONE had any problems shipping to EU now that RoHs has come and gone?

Please advise,
Peter Montessi
A Designs Audio
www.adesignsaudio.com
Old 11th July 2006
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Montessi
Has ANYONE had any problems shipping to EU now that RoHs has come and gone?

Please advise,
Peter Montessi
A Designs Audio
www.adesignsaudio.com
Looks like the Germans will be the hardest, but they are not loking for a single resistor or cap. They have to be alerted to a violation, then they have to purchase one and then check it. They will look for hexa vailant chromate plating (galvaneel, zinc chromate), lead PCBs, etc. They won't check every resistor, even if they check your unit. I would not send them a unit that is marked ROHS and it is not, though, they could ban you.

There is a proposal floating that would allow a certain % in ratio (.1%) to the total weight of the board...
Old 11th July 2006
  #107
Lives for gear
 

Is Germany the only country with issues at this time?

How is Sweden, France, UK and the rest?

Thanks Paul,
Peter Montessi
A Designs Audio
www.adesignsaudio.com
Old 11th July 2006
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Montessi
Is Germany the only country with issues at this time?

How is Sweden, France, UK and the rest?

Thanks Paul,
Peter Montessi
A Designs Audio
www.adesignsaudio.com
they are just more anal...
Old 11th July 2006
  #109
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

ROHS JUST PLAIN SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS

I have to vent because you know what? We spent years tweaking the components for our Distressor, Fatso, and Lil FrEQ and now the "THOUGHTFUL ADMINISTRATORS" ARE UNDOING ALL MY WORK AND CASTING THE RILIABILITY OF OUR PRODUCTS INTO DOUBT!

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I swore from day one that I would not spend my time re-designing things, and turned the ROHS compliancy issues over to other people. Well it just doesnt work that @#$%^&* WAY! I have been dragged into this day after day after day after day after.....

IM FEELING EMPIRICAL LABS WILL NOT RE-DESIGN OUR PRODUCTS AGAIN (AFTER THIS ROHS RE-DESIGN), IF ONE MORE RIDICULOUS REGULATORY LYNCH MOB, MAKES US CHANGE OR RE-CERTIFY OUR PRODUCTS. ITS THAT SIMPLE...........
I THINK lol.



Did you know that the whole reason for ROHS is based on FAULTY RESEARCH? Do they realize that IF OUR PRODUCTS START FAILING BECAUSE WE HAD TO MEET THEIR UN-BENDING REGULATIONS, THAT THE COST IN SHIPPING, OR REPAIR, OR TOTAL FAILURE RESULTING IN DISPOSAL OF OUR UNITS WILL CAUSE MORE POLLUTION AND DAMAGE THAN THE TEENTSY AMOUNT OF LEAD ON OUR PC BOARDS?

Theres an array of absolutely critical components in our products that ARE NOT AVAILABLE LEAD FREE. I went thru 4 different timing caps 10 yrs ago. It took probably 2 years before we found a cap that was stable, didnt fail, and worked great. ITS NOT ROHS. Ohhhhh so now I have to go thru this process again?

Our big ol RV4 pots? We already have been thru hell just getting them custom made and reliable.... BUT DOH!... NOT ROHS COMPLIANT! ARRRRRRGH!!!!

I could go on but Im fearful of having eggs thrown at my car, or a cross burning on our front lawn, or waking up with a horse head next to me in bed...

Ok I feel better. Sorry for the interruption. Please resume the normal conversation taking place on this channel.
Dave Derr
Old 11th July 2006
  #110
Lives for gear
 

Hi Dave Derr
I agree with you but it is almost as frustrating for us in Europe selling to you yanks with your reams of legislation. This is NOT an attack on any person or company specifically.
The whole RoHS stuff is BS anyway as USA, China Russia and most other places are creating such huge mountains of highly poisonous waste and / or bombing and generally destroying things that dumping a load of TV sets is pretty irrelevent. Half of Europe could just stay at home and do nothing except eat the grass in the garden and it would still make no real difference but our politicians are trying to legislate us into oblivion.
Matt S
Old 12th July 2006
  #111
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Yay Matt

I couldnt agree more. You know the amount of rubber gloves McDohnalds uses in just one day preparing food, could poison several acres... for decades. Don't get me started on our Dimwhit president's wars and general environmental stupidity. I mean why should we worry about signing the Kyoto treaty to limit greenhouse gasses... it could hurt big business here, and make people have to get rid of their Humvees and trucks. Why George Bush's "America" has every right to gamble with the world's weather and air. JEEZE!

The thing that realllllly irks me is I honestly try to make a product that might be around 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now. We chose long life parts, teflon wire, connectors and other mechanical components that can be swapped out. Id love to know if even one of our 11,000 Distressors has been tossed out after 11 years. But NOOOooooo that doesnt matter... we used reliable lead based solder inside... probably several grams of it! So its been around for 50 years and there is actually NO EVIDENCE that it has leached into ground water from the disposible cell phones and computers... Cease and Desist!

We have already had problems in the affect on reliability and performance with lead free. Ah well. What can ya do except bitch and moan and spend hours re-creating an already designed and tweaked product.

But let me tell ya, when I become president....
Old 12th July 2006
  #112
Lives for gear
 
2leod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Derr
I couldnt agree more. You know the amount of rubber gloves McDohnalds uses every day preparing food, could poison several acres...

But let me tell ya, when I become president....
I'd vote for ya!


I mean, I would if I wasn't living in, like, Canada and all.



Would that make me a Derr-mocrat?
heh
Old 12th July 2006
  #113
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Ha haaaaa Good one

Yeah thats it... Im a Derrmocrat, and the rr's stand for the Republican side of me, so Im really a moderate in between. Take the best of both worlds, ya know?

I may have found a new timing cap today thats Rohs compliant. Ill order samples tomorrow. Still waiting on the new Rohs Fatso's to come back and be tested.

I can just see some fanatic customer now... "Was your Fatso a Pre-Rohs unit, or a Post-Rohs one?"
Old 12th July 2006
  #114
Moderator
 
Tim Farrant's Avatar
 

So Dave, I take it from your words above that your products are not fully RoHS compliant yet?

Will you still ship them into Europe "as is"?

Does this worry you at all?

Don't worry, I am in the same boat, I still have lead tinned pcb's in stock that I am not going to throw out.

Tim.
Old 12th July 2006
  #115
Lives for gear
 

There was a piece in a UK paper recently about an expensive music player sold in the UK for about £300 where apparently these units are regarded as 'disposable' by the manufacturer and people are having difficulty with warranty issues even at less than a year old. As reported the distributors in the UK or maybe the manufacturers are not really interested. This is irresponsible in my mind, even if they are RoHS compliant it is still waste. Personally I am disappointed that my VHS video recorder has gone faulty after 10 years. I can't bring myself to actually throw away my Betamax video I got in 1983. It has problems ejecting the cassettes but otherwise it is kind of OK.
Matt S
Old 12th July 2006
  #116
Lives for gear
 

To Vince:

Thank you!!!

To Dave Derr:

Go get em Dave heh

To Tim:

See you at AES? Unless there is too much toxic waste in the air and they won't let planes fly either!!

Peter Montessi
A Designs Audio
www/adesignsaudio.com
Old 12th July 2006
  #117
So now am I stuck scrapping off the tin/lead plating on the leads of a Cornel Dublier silver mica cap? As far as I know, CD has no plans to issue silver mica caps without leaded leads. Guess Nasa don't care about "earthly" problems.

The lead free solder sucks big time, it doesn't sound anything like the sn62 2% silver I normally use. Flows like crap, looks like crap, it is crap.

This is going to be like deja-vu all over again. As Fender amps became desired for the "pre CBS" models, it's a sure bet that the "pre RoHS" audio gear is going to be compared and prefered and will become the next vintage rage.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 12th July 2006
  #118
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

HIYA TIM!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Farrant
So Dave, I take it from your words above that your products are not fully RoHS compliant yet?

Will you still ship them into Europe "as is"?

Does this worry you at all?

Don't worry, I am in the same boat, I still have lead tinned pcb's in stock that I am not going to throw out.

Tim.
We have two out of three products being theoretically turned into Rohs Compliant, if we can track down the last few parts in Rohs. Not all our hard to find parts are Rohs yet as I said, so I guess we will have to buy a mass spectrometer, and a high resolution spectral density X-ray machine here to scan a finished product and find out if we meet the .1% lead specification. After we buy the scanning machines, there's the chance we may go out of business due to high overhead, and product failure due to "tin whiskers" forming.

We will not continue to ship to Europe with the current products untill they have become Rohs compliant. It looks pretty good right now, if again, we can find our finicky, agonized-over parts in "Rohs" versions. People tell us all the time, "Oh just ship them like they are, no one will know, what are they going to test everyones units?" But Id rather not ship unless someone else can take complete responsibility for Empirical being out of conformance.

Yeah, throwing out tons of old PCB's wouldnt be bad for the environment at all. I mean its only non-biodegradable FR4 fiberglass and lead tinned PC boards. Im sure they will be mostly absorbed into the environment in 5000 - 10000 years....

We ordered smaller quantities of the non-Rohs PCBs this time as we tracked down parts. We figure we can ship the non-rohs balance to the US... and Cuba ::wink::

You know, my "first choice" stance from the beginning has been "To Hell with people in Europe if we can't make our long life product up to their "whimsical" standards. I mean, how many hoops do we have to jump through for a small segment of the market? What other surprises will be thrown at us? We already have laid out +$20K to be CE approved. Now this. Most of us have agonized over the design and parts once, and we're just not going to do it again."

But for some reason... our distributor and Euro-dealers have a problem with that stance.


TO EUROPEAN DEALERS: YOU HAVE TO PROMISE NOT TO SCREAM AT MANUFACTURERS WHEN YOUR COUNTRIES HAVE GONE AND MADE IT DIFFICULT (OR IMPOSSIBLE) FOR US TO CONTINUE PRODUCING OUR PRODUCTS AS WE ALWAYS HAVE, LET ALONE WITH THE SAME RELIABILITY, AND THE SAME PROFITS. I really think you should go lobby the Rohs Committee and tell them you are never going to throw our stuff away, so just let us slide.

Have a nice day!

Dave Derr
Old 12th July 2006
  #119
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams
So now am I stuck scrapping off the tin/lead plating on the leads of a Cornel Dublier silver mica cap? As far as I know, CD has no plans to issue silver mica caps without leaded leads. Guess Nasa don't care about "earthly" problems.

The lead free solder sucks big time, it doesn't sound anything like the sn62 2% silver I normally use. Flows like crap, looks like crap, it is crap.

This is going to be like deja-vu all over again. As Fender amps became desired for the "pre CBS" models, it's a sure bet that the "pre RoHS" audio gear is going to be compared and prefered and will become the next vintage rage.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
HEYEE JIM, you're really scaring me! But...You gave me an idea. We can make about 2000 of each of our products with the old Pre-Rohs technology and stash em away. In 5 years when the Rohs units are failing, and people are clamboring to get Pre-Rohs units, we'll put them out at a much higher price as "VINTAGE" VERSIONS.

When life gives you lemons, make LEMONADE. (possibly expensive lemonade)
Old 14th July 2006
  #120
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

One of a kind NON-Rohs Components

So me being lazy and all, I have heard different stories on one-of-kind NON-Rohs components being able to be exempted, and decided to just ask here.

With our RV4 pots that I have $80K worth of... there are no plans to make these Rohs. I ordered these a couple years ago to get them at a SANE price. Does anyone know if I can I get something like these exempted? We use them in every product. Im not lying when I say I spent years tweaking these to a custom part, after they discontinued the molded carbon ones. When you have 26 weeks between prototypes, things can drag on!

I have no idea what lurks inside the RV4 pot, only that the terminals are lead tinned. In our latest product, we use tons of BOURNS SERIES 50 Pots. Bourns doesnt know what they are doing about meeting Rohs on these. Again I think its mainly the terminals. Seems like they could turn these to rohs compliant.

Its funny looking at the Actual Rohs Regulations. After 10 pages, I hadnt found anything that actually seemed useful to those of us in the REAL WORLD...I.E. those of us just trying to make and ship the products we've been making for years. So thanks to Tim for starting this thread, which has already proved helpful to me.


Soooo, Anyone have experience at part exemption? Or do they maybe have a "lazy engineer" exemption for me?


Ex-"New Product" Designer, New "Old product" Re-designer
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