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12 Channel custom built tube console Single-Channel Preamps
Old 16th September 2007
  #31
Gear Head
 

John Hardy 990

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluzzi View Post
Thats what I said about transformers between the Tube in racks. Don't skimp on those. Most good Xfr makers will make custom ones for you.

Have Clive look at John Hardy's 990 Discrete Opamps. They are cheap and probably would work well for summing (great for mike preamps as well).

jim

Absolutely i would trust John Hardy very much, looks as if i have to settle for a hybrid design otherwise Clive would not be able to guarantee the high spec at the end of the day.

Clive praised Lundahl transformers very much after i mentioned them reckons Cadac uses them.

Would like to know what the noise spec is for the UA 610 console which is 12 channel with 3 outputs all tube.
Old 16th September 2007
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Hi
I would be intrigued to know how a valve channel would be done (how many valves needed etc) for your proposal if you are truly staying valve only. To avoid interactions and level changes you need many buffers or conspire to 'back load' circuits when switched off. The unseen advantage of op amps (or discrete transistor stages) is that their drive capability is far in excess of the loads that are usually put on them so slinging another 10K AUX pot across an output has virtually no effect. Even if you transformered outputs down to say 600 ohms the action of adding a 10K load drops level by 0.3dB, which various 'golden ears' would object too.
Look at the threads on passive summing, you then get an inkling of the vast swamp of extra bits you need to add to add even simple requirements work.
Matt S
Old 17th September 2007
  #33
Lives for gear
 
studio1117's Avatar
 

I got a better idea. Call inward connections or somebody like that. Have them build 12 channels or mic/line in, add your 8 buss routing and 4 aux sends etc.
but leave the space where eq's would go for 500 series units. So basicaly you'ld have a 12 channel tube mixer that can be straight line through with no eq inserted or add the 500 series modules in your mixer frame. It's work Brian Roth and I were discussing the basics of it tonight. I know you could do it for far less than $30,000. Actually whoever builds this thing (say inward for instance) could actually probably sell a few of these and once the basic tube mic pre driver etc is designed up..they could build 24/32/40 etc sized frames. I still like your idea of mounting the tube stuff up in a rack and just having faders knobs and the 500 modules in a mini mixer so to speak. You could make the tube pre/line, make up amp in racks of 8 channels. and make the 500 series frames with the aux knobs faders etc expandable in 8 channel frames.
Old 10th October 2007
  #34
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
I would be intrigued to know how a valve channel would be done (how many valves needed etc) for your proposal if you are truly staying valve only. To avoid interactions and level changes you need many buffers or conspire to 'back load' circuits when switched off. The unseen advantage of op amps (or discrete transistor stages) is that their drive capability is far in excess of the loads that are usually put on them so slinging another 10K AUX pot across an output has virtually no effect. Even if you transformered outputs down to say 600 ohms the action of adding a 10K load drops level by 0.3dB, which various 'golden ears' would object too.
Look at the threads on passive summing, you then get an inkling of the vast swamp of extra bits you need to add to add even simple requirements work.
Matt S
Looks as if Pat Moreford will help with the design and schematic info and my tech can put it together for me, I will also scale it down to an 8 channel version and keep all the electronics inside the board which is good for the budget, audio and noise specs.
Old 10th October 2007
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studio1117 View Post
I got a better idea. Call inward connections or somebody like that. Have them build 12 channels or mic/line in, add your 8 buss routing and 4 aux sends etc.
but leave the space where eq's would go for 500 series units. So basicaly you'ld have a 12 channel tube mixer that can be straight line through with no eq inserted or add the 500 series modules in your mixer frame. It's work Brian Roth and I were discussing the basics of it tonight. I know you could do it for far less than $30,000. Actually whoever builds this thing (say inward for instance) could actually probably sell a few of these and once the basic tube mic pre driver etc is designed up..they could build 24/32/40 etc sized frames. I still like your idea of mounting the tube stuff up in a rack and just having faders knobs and the 500 modules in a mini mixer so to speak. You could make the tube pre/line, make up amp in racks of 8 channels. and make the 500 series frames with the aux knobs faders etc expandable in 8 channel frames.
My tech reckons anything over 8 channel will have noise problems and be unuseable unless he turns the design high bred, so i will contact Pat Moreford for an 8 channel design with echo send and return and keep it very simple. I will check out Inwards also... Thanks
Old 10th October 2007
  #36
Lives for gear
DUDE!!!

I think it sounds like an idea (good or bad?Too early to say...)

I wish I had that kind of cash to spend on an all tube console...OR the patience to wait!
You could always call up British Grove Studios in London, and try out the EMI REDD desk for a day...(don´t know what they charge...) and check the noize and whatnot...Also, get a feel for the sound of it and make a mental note of it!

But go for it!!!

Peace,
T.
Old 10th October 2007
  #37
I like your fascination, but is it worth all teh trouble?

you can buy a big used NEVE or SSL (ok, not the sound you want) and discrete design for under 20'000 pounds.

the new API is in this range, the old ones go for 10 pounds or less.

more channels for mixdown.


cheers
Old 10th October 2007
  #38
Smile IF

We are talking trying to make this line mixer sound good then it had better be something like EF86 into an ECC86 wired one half cathode follower one half
gain. If you make it all out of dual triodes in AB it will sound valve but not like
the best most euphonic silvery valve line amps. Is it going to have eq I hope not.
If I were you I would talk to Brian Sowter about this as he has had a hell of a lot of experience in tube console transformer design (did most of the BBC and quite a lot of EMI's stuff) Use multi-caps in the coupling caps don't go with the paper in oil posse
they speak guano.
Old 11th October 2007
  #39
Gear Maniac
 

EMI REDD console design

Since this thread has revived itself, I'm going to step firmly in with both feet...

I renovated the REDD51 console owned by British Grove, so I feel qualified on the subject. I've also worked on the REDD17 at "Toe Rag" studios.

The desk you are proposing is way different from the REDD console, which obviously has full facilities, Mic Inputs, EQ etc.
The REDD desks are very different from modern consoles, in that they use fixed gain (36 or 40dB) amplifiers.
The REDD17 & 37 use V72S amplifiers, which are self powered, but the REDD47 amplifiers in the REDD51 use external DC power supplies.
In the overall signal path there are three of these amplifiers, a "Mic Amp", an "Inter Amp" (a mix or summing amp) and a "Line Amp" which drives the output. In the REDD51 these are all 40dB, with passive elements (attenuators, faders, equalisers etc.) which all lose level, placed in between them to control the overall gain.
The REDD consoles are full of transformers. The REDD51 centre section alone has 22, and each amplifier (of which there are 28) has Input and Output transformers, and there are various others scattered around. The signal path is balanced right through the desk.
With careful design I don't think that hum or grounding should be a problem.

I'm aware of the tech mentioned in connection with this project and know that he has a good reputation, but even so, I think the cost proposed is highly optimistic.

There is a guy in Germany who is attempting to build a replica of the REDD51. He's been on it for ages and hasn't even got to the wiring and electronics yet, just building the metalwork.

Please don't ask me for schematics of the REDD, since a refusal may offend.
I am OK with giving general guidance if required.

BTW, Sowter (for whom I have high regard) did not make transformers for the REDD, or any other EMI console. All the audio transformers were manufactured "In house" by EMI. The only exception to this was some of the transformers in the TG Mastering consoles, which were made by Gardners.

Best regards,
Brian Gibson.

TG Mixers

Last edited by BeeGee; 11th October 2007 at 10:32 AM.. Reason: Extra comments
Old 11th October 2007
  #40
Lives for gear
 
audiothings's Avatar
 

hey mightyecho!

very brave indeed. go for it man! like the good old days, the engineer builds his own gear. i am reminded of an article about david manley's audiophile work... he used a minimalist 8x2 custom designed tube console.

you must have thought of this of course, but for the truly old school sound, the entire approach has to be old school... which makes me wonder what you need 4 aux sends, 8 groups etc for. For a truly old school approach there'd be no headphone mixes, no more than 2 reverbs (echo chambers? plate?), and probably no more than 4 tracks to record on (Abbey Road Studios did not install a four-track recorder until around 1963). By the end of the 60s everything had changed... my understanding is that everything after the late 60s was primarily solid state, till the relatively recent tube revival scene.

my suggestion is that if you are going for this, go all the way... theres enough tube+ss+digital stuff thats flooding the music business...

in any case, all the very best. i hope you go through with it and we'd get to see and hear the results sometime.

thumbsup
Old 11th October 2007
  #41
Smile I stand corrected

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeGee View Post
Since this thread has revived itself, I'm going to step firmly in with both feet...

I renovated the REDD51 console owned by British Grove, so I feel qualified on the subject. I've also worked on the REDD17 at "Toe Rag" studios.

The desk you are proposing is way different from the REDD console, which obviously has full facilities, Mic Inputs, EQ etc.
The REDD desks are very different from modern consoles, in that they use fixed gain (36 or 40dB) amplifiers.
The REDD17 & 37 use V72S amplifiers, which are self powered, but the REDD47 amplifiers in the REDD51 use external DC power supplies.
In the overall signal path there are three of these amplifiers, a "Mic Amp", an "Inter Amp" (a mix or summing amp) and a "Line Amp" which drives the output. In the REDD51 these are all 40dB, with passive elements (attenuators, faders, equalisers etc.) which all lose level, placed in between them to control the overall gain.
The REDD consoles are full of transformers. The REDD51 centre section alone has 22, and each amplifier (of which there are 28) has Input and Output transformers, and there are various others scattered around. The signal path is balanced right through the desk.
With careful design I don't think that hum or grounding should be a problem.

I'm aware of the tech mentioned in connection with this project and know that he has a good reputation, but even so, I think the cost proposed is highly optimistic.

There is a guy in Germany who is attempting to build a replica of the REDD51. He's been on it for ages and hasn't even got to the wiring and electronics yet, just building the metalwork.

Please don't ask me for schematics of the REDD, since a refusal may offend.
I am OK with giving general guidance if required.

BTW, Sowter (for whom I have high regard) did not make transformers for the REDD, or any other EMI console. All the audio transformers were manufactured "In house" by EMI. The only exception to this was some of the transformers in the TG Mastering consoles, which were made by Gardners.

Best regards,
Brian Gibson.

TG Mixers
"An estimated 25000 V72 were built for the German Radio Network alone with a fixed gain of 34dB, by several different companies. The early ones were build by Maihak and TFK; in 1954 Siemens and TAB joined the production team. Aside from the German radio stations, the V72 was used by most of the European Recording Companies like EMI, Decca/TFK, etc. Those units were a bit different,with a fixed gain of 40 dB and lower input impedence".
I was under the impression that Sowter had provided numerous examples to Rolf Schild possibly only for test purposes and as to weather they ended up in production consoles I don't know.
as Sowter do currently make fabulous direct replacement parts for V72s and EMI and Gardner don't exist in that way anymore, it seems to me helpful to point people toward my mate Brian.
PS My favorite valve line amp of that time is the old Vortexion monitor amp design from the CBL recorder it sounds fantastic driven hard by the output trans of a Neve 33609JD in the PT 2 buss insert, the bass is huge the hats and cymbals kiss you softly the snare cracks with body and it is so so good in combination with with the an old RCA op-6 pre and an old U87 on VOX, No sibilance but silvery bright and clear but with a midrange to die for. It always lives in my 2 buss!. I think your mate Mr Hedges is also a fan of this venerable old British make. I am currently faffing about with an old Allan Davies compressor, very interesting use of ECC 81 and EF 92. Triode/ Pentode or Pentode/Triode "its all good"!
I once had a carton of buss transformers marked EMI that had Electrosonics written on the winding cover?.
Who and what where Electrosonics to EMI back then do you know, where they an acquisition like SE Labs. I had the pleasure of working for Rolf Schild occasionally back in the seventies he was a great audio tube engineer. Well when he wasn't cobbling together missile guidance systems and inventing the odd Iron Lung that is.
Old 11th October 2007
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Hi Bassmec
How about a picture or two of your Vortexion line amp unit.
I worked there in 1978 and 9 but they had stopped all valve stuff by then and were getting to grips with transistors (?!!). I have a 100 Volt line amp from them (4 X EL84) which seems to be the 'Mullard' circuit.
Matt S
Old 11th October 2007
  #43
Smile OK Mate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi Bassmec
How about a picture or two of your Vortexion line amp unit.
I worked there in 1978 and 9 but they had stopped all valve stuff by then and were getting to grips with transistors (?!!). I have a 100 Volt line amp from them (4 X EL84) which seems to be the 'Mullard' circuit.
Matt S
Here is a slutty picture of the old beast.
Yes they tended to adhere fairly closely to the recommendations of of old George Mullard.
http://photos1.hi5.com/0011/968/533/I8Tgj8968533-02.jpg
Old 12th October 2007
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Transformers

I should have been more specific in saying that, in my experience of REDD, TG and a couple of broadcast (BRED) desks, they all contained transformers manufactured in house by EMI. These are mostly identified by a part number prefixed by the letters "TDS" although the very early ones have REDD part numbers. Some of the TG mastering desks had transformers manufactured by Gardners, and these carry both a TDS and a Gardners part number. I have had replicas of these made by the company that took over Gardners (Greenwood electronics) by supplying them with a sample for analysis. It's quite possible that EMI closed their in house transformenr department and then sub-contracted the work outside. The mastering desks I'm talking about date from around 1974-75.

I'm fully aware of Sowters range of replacement transformers for a whole range of vintage audio gear. They have also made excellent replicas of some TG transformers for me, but just because they make replacements doesn't mean they also made the originals.

My mistake on the V72. You are correct in sayng the gain is 34dB, but the EMI REDD17 & REDD37 used the V72'S' version, which was 40dB gain, the same as the nominal setting on the REDD47. There is EMI documentation detailing how to change a V72 to a V72S.

I vaguely recall the name "Electrosonics" but I'm afraid I have no idea of their relationship with EMI.

Regards,
BG.
Old 12th October 2007
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Wavebourn's Avatar
 

If you want fully balanced class A/B go with modern OpAmps. You can put them in Lexan tubes with orange LEDs. At least, bright LEDs will require much less current than real filaments.
But if you want to get really clean sound from tubes here is my contribution:

http://wavebourn.com/images/audio/CS...-Wavebourn.gif
Old 25th November 2007
  #46
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mightyecho View Post

6. Technicians Labour £5,000
Seems like the labour is a big part of the budget. Maybe your technician could hire an electronics student (or a few) from a local university, who could build them once he finished a couple, and tested them. As long as they know how to solder and stuff properly, and a lot of students are probably happy to have some kind of job like that on the side, to make some extra cash. One could put up a note, or talk to teachers, and check if they could recommend someone.
It would save time, and money, and your tech could test all that is built...

I don't know - just an idea.

If this turns out good, there are probably quite a few people that would be interested in doing the same thing.
Old 9th December 2007
  #47
Gear Head
 

A lot of buzz around this subject

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalle1978 View Post
Seems like the labour is a big part of the budget. Maybe your technician could hire an electronics student (or a few) from a local university, who could build them once he finished a couple, and tested them. As long as they know how to solder and stuff properly, and a lot of students are probably happy to have some kind of job like that on the side, to make some extra cash. One could put up a note, or talk to teachers, and check if they could recommend someone.
It would save time, and money, and your tech could test all that is built...

I don't know - just an idea.

If this turns out good, there are probably quite a few people that would be interested in doing the same thing.
Thanks for the good advice, good to see other dudes are keen on this idea, I may ask Argiriadis in the UK if he has any console experience. A simple 8 into 2 console is now in my thoughts, it looks as if he knows his stuff and the project should be more affordable...
Old 9th December 2007
  #48
Gear Head
 

Very interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavebourn View Post
If you want fully balanced class A/B go with modern OpAmps. You can put them in Lexan tubes with orange LEDs. At least, bright LEDs will require much less current than real filaments.
But if you want to get really clean sound from tubes here is my contribution:

http://wavebourn.com/images/audio/CS...-Wavebourn.gif

Very intersting. Thanks will pass this to the technicians.
Old 9th December 2007
  #49
Gear Head
 

Scaled down version

Yeah have scaled the idea down a lot and gone with the idea of building a simple 8 into 2 console with maybe just the 2 aux sends and no EQ!
I will speak to MR Argiriadis in the UK concerning the build and design or maybe Pat Morford in the states will do the design work for me...
Old 9th December 2007
  #50
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeGee View Post
Since this thread has revived itself, I'm going to step firmly in with both feet...

I renovated the REDD51 console owned by British Grove, so I feel qualified on the subject. I've also worked on the REDD17 at "Toe Rag" studios.

The desk you are proposing is way different from the REDD console, which obviously has full facilities, Mic Inputs, EQ etc.
The REDD desks are very different from modern consoles, in that they use fixed gain (36 or 40dB) amplifiers.
The REDD17 & 37 use V72S amplifiers, which are self powered, but the REDD47 amplifiers in the REDD51 use external DC power supplies.
In the overall signal path there are three of these amplifiers, a "Mic Amp", an "Inter Amp" (a mix or summing amp) and a "Line Amp" which drives the output. In the REDD51 these are all 40dB, with passive elements (attenuators, faders, equalisers etc.) which all lose level, placed in between them to control the overall gain.
The REDD consoles are full of transformers. The REDD51 centre section alone has 22, and each amplifier (of which there are 28) has Input and Output transformers, and there are various others scattered around. The signal path is balanced right through the desk.
With careful design I don't think that hum or grounding should be a problem.

I'm aware of the tech mentioned in connection with this project and know that he has a good reputation, but even so, I think the cost proposed is highly optimistic.

There is a guy in Germany who is attempting to build a replica of the REDD51. He's been on it for ages and hasn't even got to the wiring and electronics yet, just building the metalwork.

Please don't ask me for schematics of the REDD, since a refusal may offend.
I am OK with giving general guidance if required.

BTW, Sowter (for whom I have high regard) did not make transformers for the REDD, or any other EMI console. All the audio transformers were manufactured "In house" by EMI. The only exception to this was some of the transformers in the TG Mastering consoles, which were made by Gardners.

Best regards,
Brian Gibson.

TG Mixers
I will ask Argiriadis in the UK to do the build work it should be a lot cheaper and i trust his work very much, EMI REDD schematics are available on DVD ROM format along with dozens of other valve console schematics i saw on ebay, seems as if i'm not alone with the valve console idea...

Lundahl transformers look to be the best option so far, as my experience with Sowter was not that great when compared to a Stevens & Billington that Clive supplied for a Mic Z step up box. My serv tech is not too impressed with Sowter and proved his point sonically.

I reckon they must be doing something right though!

Thanks for the advice.
Old 27th December 2007
  #51
Here for the gear
 

Smile join hands

Hi All.
Interesting subject and something that I was looking at but on a smaller basis, having designed Valve Hi-Fi for some 10 years before going back in to recording.
It is funny, a friend gave me some REDD circuits a few years ago and only realised they were for the famous consoles of Abbey Road etc, in my view are incredibly simple in comparison to some of the stuff I worked on (if broken down into their individual parts).

Perhaps it may be better to work together to create something that all could use, it depends on how much the people are looking for with valve based circuitry.

I look forward to your comments
Chris
Old 5th February 2008
  #52
Gear Head
 

Perhaps it may be better to work together to create something that all could use, it depends on how much the people are looking for with valve based circuitry.

I look forward to your comments
Chris[/quote]


That would be good. please email me so we can discuss the project...
Old 5th February 2008
  #53
Lives for gear
 
jamsmith's Avatar
 

Tube mixers can be built, and have been built. One thing you have to do is forget about modern console design. Look into the consoles they used back in the old days. Big vented boxes. Forget about the "channel strips". You might have strips that have the pots and switches on them, but build the electronics on chassis behind those. Think of on old tube radio or TV, or even a tube guitar amp. You have a front panel with controls and behind that panel in the "cabinet" are your circuit chassis.

Thinking modularly, you might even consider just making a whole channel like a guitar amp chassis and putting them all in to rack or two. Of course this would awkward compared to what you are use to, but then you could do something similar to Euphonix but instead of VCAs, you do it like moving faders or robots. The surface controls send signals to move the pots in the rack. You could then move the rack into a small cooled closet (maybe inside a faraday cage to further reduce noise.)

As far as the tech building it: pooh pooh to the naysayers. Service techs spend half their life fixing **** that either engineers didn't design right in the first place or was put together by someone whose highest skill is assembly and soldering. Of course our work may not be pretty, but it will be reliable. If not, why would come to us in the first place (Of course this is past tense for me personally, all I have done in the last 10 years was replace a jack in my guitar!). The majority of my work was tube audio.If someone in American wants to spend that kind of money for an remotely controlled all tube mixer, I would gladly come out of retirement. Writing code is losing its luster for me.
Old 6th February 2008
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

For a very interesting Web site detailing the development of a real all valve mixer - (with 26 valves per channel strip....!) - have a look at the Vintec Web site:

Vintec Röhren Röhre Tube Valve Mischpult Console Music Recording Studiotechnik Audio

There isn't any evidence of recent activity - so perhaps development has ceased - but still a magnificent project.

Clearly not very practical for normal use - imagine the running costs alone, you can easily work out the total power consumption of a typical size console from the figures stated on the Web site.
Old 7th February 2008
  #55
One route you could go is using mixing transformers for your summing bus. My experience has been pretty positive with the Edcors (WSM6410 and WSM6400), I built a simple 4-stereo-channel passive line mixer (with level and pan) using them. There's about 18db of signal loss through the mixer (not a big issue for me, may be for other people), you'd get a bit more if you're doing eight stereo channels. I'm thinking of building a couple of tube preamps for makeup gain based on NYDave's single bottle pre design. Since signal loss is relatively low the 40db that the single bottle puts out should be more than sufficient for my purposes. Anyways, since this is a line mixer it can take any line-level source as input, so any tube preamp that puts out line level would work. As with any mixing topology there are drawbacks; since the whole mix buss is just a bunch of transformers wired together there is a fair amount of harmonic distortion. That may or may not be a good thing depending on what you're trying to accomplish and whether or not you like the sound of the transformers. It's more expensive, since instead of resistors you're using transformers. The Edcors are relatively cheap (under 10 bucks a pop), but not so cheap if you're using 14 of them in comparison to the price of 8 (unbalanced) or 16 (balanced) resistors.

Anyways, just a thought. I think this is a cool project and I hope you get it built no matter what mixing buss topology you choose.
Old 15th June 2009
  #56
Lives for gear
 
ruffrecords's Avatar
It's about two years since this thread started. I would love to hear what is the current status of the all tube mixer project??


Cheers

Ian
Old 24th October 2009
  #57
Gear Head
 
thethe's Avatar
 

I see this thread is dead, but I also think about such kind of project - just about possibilities... Say, we need channel to contain fader, pan-pot, aux-send and direct out. In this case, as I can understand (I'm not a tech), we need at least 2 buffers, first to match output impedance of pre to following load, and second (at least one) to implement noninteraction of three separate lines: main, direct out and send. I tried to find any information about how were this stages implemented in old consoles, but there is no solution there, 'cause there were no direct outs/sends and everything was on switches, they used 3M-format, so there was no such thing as pan-pot. I tried to find any schematics or technical data about old custom consoles (CBS, ect..) - without success. I spoke to my tech, he said in fact there is no good solution here, even if to make everything using tubes and tranformers (which will make price of this project climb up very high), there are too many nuances to have any guarantees, in other cases (transistors) - what's the point "to invent tricycle", why not to use good op-amps, keeping pre's and master-section complitely tube/transformer, so they won't affect the sound too much - he used op-amps (5534, 5532) in his outboard pre's (there was such circuit need) and if to say truly, I liked the sound, though I can't be sure about the aesthetics, and I don't have enough experience to imagine how this could sound...
If anyone has anything to say, any thoughts and any opinions are welcome.
Thank you.
Old 24th October 2009
  #58
Lives for gear
 

Hi
Mine is developing, but very slowly due to necessary work on my house and all too frequent distractions.
Matt S
Old 24th October 2009
  #59
Gear Head
 
thethe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Syson View Post
Hi
Mine is developing, but very slowly due to necessary work on my house and all too frequent distractions.
Matt S
Hi Matt!
Did you try to find any "authentic" solutions for buffers just with tubes and transformers? What do you think about it, is it impossible, or is it unnecessary, kind of prejudice?
Thank you.
Old 24th October 2009
  #60
Lives for gear
 

Hi
All things are possible but cramming it into a small space is not really a sensible option.
My original ideas have been 'pruned down' to make it more practical.
The Vintec desk is (assuming it exists) the way to make a 'conventional' desk but over the time I have been thinking and planning I am not sure that the world needs another 'conventional' desk with Valves.
Matt S
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