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What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?
Old 6th December 2019
  #1
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What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?

Im trying for the third time to correctly connect a Sony SRA-3 preamp to a neutrik 1/4" patch bay. The Sony has TS mic in, RCA line in and RCA line out.

I have an Ebtech hum eliminator stereo transformer isolator. Should this go on the inputs to the Sony or the Output from the Sony?

Also, the rane note 110 mentions "transformer or cross-coupled output stage" determining the wiring from the patch bay into the mic and line inputs of the sony. Which of these rane note 110 wiring diagrams do I follow? Is the neutrik 1/4" parch bay cross-coupled?
Old 6th December 2019
  #2
Cross coupled is a transformer emulation using two opamps with negative and positive feedback. Like with a transformer, you ground the low side feeding an unbalanced input.
Old 6th December 2019
  #3
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Thanks

So my Neutrik is not cross-coupled.
Based on that I'll have the following wiring:

TRS to TS mic input:
1 conductor cable
tip to tip
ring to nothing
cable shield sleeve to sleeve

TRS to RCA line input:
1 conductor cable
tip to tip
ring to nothing
cable shield sleeve to sleeve

RCA to TRS line output:
2 conductor cable
tip to tip
sleeve to ring
cable shield cut at RCA end to TRS sleeve

Im a little confused as to the difference between input, output, step-up, and step-down isolator transformers. Where should a transformer isolator go, specifically an Ebtech Hum Eliminator? On the output or on the inputs? If I use one, does that make the inputs "transformer coupled" and I should then use the other rane note 110 wiring schemes?

Last edited by camadair; 6th December 2019 at 11:55 PM..
Old 6th December 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
Thanks

So my Neutrik is not cross-coupled.
Based on that I'll have the following wiring:

TRS to TS mic input:
1 conductor cable
tip to tip
ring to nothing
cable shield sleeve to sleeve

TRS to RCA line input:
1 conductor cable
tip to tip
ring to nothing
cable shield sleeve to sleeve

RCA to TRS line output:
2 conductor cable
tip to tip
sleeve to ring
cable shield cut at RCA end to TRS sleeve

Im a little confused as to the difference between input, output, step-up, and step-down isolator transformers. Where should a transformer isolator go, specifically an Ebtech Hum Eliminator? On the output or on the inputs?
Why do you need a hum eliminator?
Why do you need an isolator?

Also list the model of the patch bay and what the patch bay is connecting to.
Old 7th December 2019
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
Why do you need a hum eliminator?
Why do you need an isolator?

Also list the model of the patch bay and what the patch bay is connecting to.
Thanks

An Ebtech Hum eliminator is a tranformer isolator. AES whitepapers give transformers isolation as a better option than custom cabling for connecting unbalanced equipment. That all seems implicit and rather obvious here..

Its the standard 1/4" neitrik patch bay NYS-SPP-L.

Does a transformer isolator go on the input or output? Jenses specifies between their input and output transformer isolators. Whats the difference electrically and in application? AES states that input is better but requires shorter cable runs. Is the Ebtech I or O?

Last edited by camadair; 7th December 2019 at 01:14 AM..
Old 7th December 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
Thanks

Because AES whitepapers say to when connecting unbalanced equipment and Im having a noise floor issue in a new studio location.

Its the standard 1/4" neitrik patch bay NYS-SPP-L

The patch bay is grounded to chassis and connected to mic tie panel, and an outboard rack. Why list everything connected to it? The only unbalanced outboard is a sony SRA-3 and an re-201.
It seems like their may be a few issues going on hear.

You mentioned noise floor issues but never mentioned signal chain.

1. You have the noise floor inherent in the gear.
2. You have added noise such as ground loop and RFI

If what you are saying is that you when you add in the sony pre-amp it has a high noise floor, that may be inherent and either a feature in the design or a flaw that needs to be repaired. Either way the noise is in the SIGNAL to begin with and changing over from unbalanced to balanced will do nothing to fix it.

IF IT IS Radio frequency noise then adding an isolating transformer or changing signal from unbalanced to balanced may not remove the noise. Having a properly twisted pair of cables with RF shielding and/or an RF filter added the ground wire would be what's needed.

If it's its a ground loop or RF noise from LONG unbalanced signals then a ground lift and a DI can fix the issue.

But without knowing what the problem is no one can help you.
Old 7th December 2019
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
Im trying for the third time to correctly connect a Sony SRA-3 preamp to a neutrik 1/4" patch bay. The Sony has TS mic in, RCA line in and RCA line out.

I have an Ebtech hum eliminator stereo transformer isolator. Should this go on the inputs to the Sony or the Output from the Sony?

Also, the rane note 110 mentions "transformer or cross-coupled output stage" determining the wiring from the patch bay into the mic and line inputs of the sony. Which of these rane note 110 wiring diagrams do I follow? Is the neutrik 1/4" parch bay cross-coupled?
SONy pre amp RCA to 1/4" TS.----HUM elimatior 1/4" input

then use the eliminator balnced output to go into your pathcbay.

EBtech makes hum eliminator with balanced TRS output and balanced XLR output.

If it has an XLR output then get the proper XLR--->TRS cable

if it is TRS then just use a TRS cable.

If it is a short run of cable and you do not have RF noise issues you can also try a shorted balanced/unbalanced cable that will not color the sound as a transformer will.
Old 7th December 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
SONy pre amp RCA to 1/4" TS.----HUM elimatior 1/4" input

then use the eliminator balnced output to go into your pathcbay.

EBtech makes hum eliminator with balanced TRS output and balanced XLR output.

If it has an XLR output then get the proper XLR--->TRS cable

if it is TRS then just use a TRS cable.

If it is a short run of cable and you do not have RF noise issues you can also try a shorted balanced/unbalanced cable that will not color the sound as a transformer will.
The Ebtech doesnt care if its balanced TRS or Unbalanced TS i believe by definition of it having transformers. Unless you have some technical info beyond whats written in its documentation youre definitely wrong.

At this point I was really trying to clear up what the difference between I and O isolation transformers is and whether they should go on the input or outputs of unbalanced to balanced connections.

Im referencing the Bill Whitlock papers, Rane Note 110, and the actual documentation of the specific makes of iso transformers. Please do same or similar sources.
Old 7th December 2019
  #9
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If you are trying to feed a line level signal into the pre amp, that doesn't make any sense.
Old 7th December 2019
  #10
Gear Nut
 
camadair's Avatar
 

Let me back up. I recently moved studios and the power is bad here which i was trying to fight as ground loops, emi, and rfi with correct wiring.

I wired the preamp per the rane 110 instructions
Rca to trs
Trs to rca (not transformer or cross-coupled)
And
Trs to ts (no transformer or cross-coupling)
Output is the same and the inputs have no signal.

I put the hum eliminator on the output stage and it introduced more noise, a faint radio station and started self oscillating when one channel was turned up.

I previously had it wired:
Trs to rca - sleeve and negative white both on rca sleeve
Rca to trs - same
And a ts to ts on the mic input

This worked fine before the studio move and Ill probably just re-solder it back.

Ive been fighting what i think now is dirty power and have bought a radial jdi, ebtech hum x, and ebtech hum eliminator, all of which did nothing to stop the pervasive 2k, 4k, 6k, 15k, 18k chirping whine which centers around 4k. Its is in every signal at every stage.

I have a tripp lite iso transformer on the way which is my last bastion at the moment before wrapping my head in reynolds wrap
Old 7th December 2019
  #11
Gear Addict
 

The very first thing is to figure out what the input on your Sony pre amp is. is it a TS or a TRS input. Since you had mentioned you are patching from the patch bay to the input on the SONY I'm guessing you are plugging a TRS into the sony "mic" input.

1. What signal are you sending into the SONY pre amp? Where is the signal coming from and is it line level, mic, instrument, etc.

2. What input are you using?

3. What outputs are using?

4. what are the outputs your using going into.

The output of the pre amps monitor section is 5kohm so make sure it is linked to an input that is at least 10kohm. This may mean using your mixers Line level input instead of Mic/xlr input, depending on your mixer's model.

I've attached some photos from the SONY manual with the relevant data.

As the manual says.

The front 1/4" inputs are for a "mic" level signal and I believe will only take a 1/4" TS plug

For line level input use the "AUX input" RCA jacks on the back that can handle line level inputs.

For normal line level outputs make sure to use the "Monitor out" RCA's on the back and none other.

I've including a wiring diagrams for difference cable solutions

The question still remains which balanced to unbalanced solution will work the best but the first steps is making sure all the other issues are right.
Attached Thumbnails
What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-inputs.jpg   What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-outputs.jpg   What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-leads-1.jpg   What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-leads-2.jpg  
Old 7th December 2019
  #12
Gear Addict
 

On a side note, ""transformer or cross-coupled output stage", the SONY is an unbalanced unit so it is neither of those things so don't worry about it.

However if you are feeding the AUX input of the SONY a line-level balanced signal then it may matter how the unit feeding into the SONY is balanced.

What you need to do is this. Unplug everything from your mixer. Listen with headphones and or speakers. See if it still makes the same noise and chirping. If it doesn't then plug things in one at a time and listen. Hopefully you can find the problem.

ALSO it looks like the SONY pre amp is non-grounded so you really should use the EBTECH hum eliminator which lifts the ground, bad for safety. Likewise if you use ANY DI box lifting the ground would be bad for safety.
Old 7th December 2019
  #13
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camadair's Avatar
 

thanks for the replies
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
The very first thing is to figure out what the input on your Sony pre amp is. is it a TS or a TRS input. Since you had mentioned you are patching from the patch bay to the input on the SONY I'm guessing you are plugging a TRS into the sony "mic" input.
it was originally TS to TS from the neutrik NYS-SPP-L1
it is currently rane note 110 Trs to ts (no transformer or cross-coupling)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
1. What signal are you sending into the SONY pre amp? Where is the signal coming from and is it line level, mic, instrument, etc.
mic plugged into mic tie panel > patch bay > patched to sra-3 mic input
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
2. What input are you using?
mic
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
3. What outputs are using?
"monitor jacks" (output)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
4. what are the outputs your using going into.
to patched bay patched into apogee symphony converter
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
The output of the pre amps monitor section is 5kohm so make sure it is linked to an input that is at least 10kohm. This may mean using your mixers Line level input instead of Mic/xlr input, depending on your mixer's model.
symphony is 10k ohm AD
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
The question still remains which balanced to unbalanced solution will work the best but the first steps is making sure all the other issues are right.
these connections look ok to me and worked in the previous location. After hours and hours the only constant I can identify after testing numerous signals at every stage is the quality of the 120v 60Hz AC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
However if you are feeding the AUX input of the SONY a line-level balanced signal then it may matter how the unit feeding into the SONY is balanced.

What you need to do is this. Unplug everything from your mixer. Listen with headphones and or speakers. See if it still makes the same noise and chirping. If it doesn't then plug things in one at a time and listen. Hopefully you can find the problem.
The noise is introduced with anything plugged into the converter or mixer eg. Mic, preamp, compressor, instrument into di, line to preamp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
ALSO it looks like the SONY pre amp is non-grounded so you really should use the EBTECH hum eliminator which lifts the ground, bad for safety. Likewise if you use ANY DI box lifting the ground would be bad for safety.
the Ebtech introduced more noise, a radio station, and caused one channel the preamp to self oscillate. It caused a loud 60Hz in other applications. Always considerably worse than without it.


After all the assiduous reading, soldering, moving cable and power runs, and testing, I do not know why the rane input wiring produces no signal or why the isolation transformer produces worse noise and RFI.

The worst is an RE-201, which is picking up the chirping whine louder than anything else, AND ITS UNGROUNDED.

Last edited by camadair; 7th December 2019 at 09:21 AM..
Old 7th December 2019
  #14
Gear Addict
 

I am interested in what kind of mic you are using and what kind of cable to plug into the SONY pre amp. Most modern have XLR balanced outputs.
Old 7th December 2019
  #15
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camadair's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
I am interested in what kind of mic you are using and what kind of cable to plug into the SONY pre amp. Most modern have XLR balanced outputs.
FLEA 47 to gotham star quad with neutrik EMC series connectors to the tie panel however the noise exists with all mics and pres.

the cables going to sony are all mogami quad or mogami single conductor w neutrik connectors.
Old 7th December 2019
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
FLEA 47 to gotham star quad with neutrik EMC series connectors to the tie panel however the noise exists with all mics and pres.

the cables going to sony are all mogami quad or mogami single conductor w neutrik connectors.
But are you plugging a TRS into the SONY mic input that is TS? are you using a TRS to TS adapter or custom made cable?
Old 7th December 2019
  #17
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camadair's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
But are you plugging a TRS into the SONY mic input that is TS? are you using a TRS to TS adapter or custom made cable?
From above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post

I wired the preamp per the rane 110 instructions
sony output: Rca to trs
sony line in: Trs to rca (not transformer or cross-coupled)
And
sony mic in: Trs to ts (no transformer or cross-coupling)
Output is the same and the inputs have no signal.

I previously had it wired:
sony output: Rca to trs - sleeve and negative white both on rca sleeve
sony line in: Trs to rca - same
And
sony mic in: ts to ts on the mic input

This worked fine before the studio move and Ill probably just re-solder it back.
Old 7th December 2019
  #18
Gear Addict
 

I previously had it wired:
sony output: Rca to trs - sleeve and negative white both on rca sleeve
sony line in: Trs to rca - same
And
sony mic in: ts to ts on the mic input

I only saw 2 power supplies for the mic Flea 47 and neither had 1/4" output.

I am pretty sure your Flea 47 power supply has an XLR output.

If your Flea 47 power supply is sitting close to your Pre amp then finding out from Flea how to hook it up with an unbalanced cable will give the cleanest sound.


For now I would try the SONY to JDI di box and wait to hear back from apogee on how they recommend to wire in unbalanced signals.
Old 8th December 2019
  #19
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For reference, here is the RANE 110 link and diagram of interconnects.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/search.php
Attached Thumbnails
What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-sony-patchbay.jpg   What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-mic-power-supply-sony.jpg  
Old 8th December 2019
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Sony mic in: Trs to ts (no transformer or cross-coupling)
Output is the same and the inputs have no signal.


Do you mean XLR to ts?

Either way if you wired the cable with either pin 3 (xlr) or "ring" on TRS "not connected" and you didn't get output/mic signal then that points to a possible issue.

On an impedance balanced output only Pin 2 on XLR or "tip" on TRS would carry a signal. Therefore if you made a "Trs to ts (no transformer or cross-coupling)" But connected to the "ring" instead of the tip on the mic power supply, TRS side, you would have no signal just as you said.

On the other hand an electronicaly balanced or transformer balanced signal will send audio from both hot and colt, tip and ring.

"The 'impedance balanced' alternative is badly named, since all balanced interfaces are inherently impedance balanced! But what most manufacturers mean by this phrase is that the balanced output uses only a single output driver for the 'hot' signal line
."

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-a...rmal-balancing
Old 8th December 2019
  #21
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After a lot of trial and error, what ended up working best with the SRA-3 was Trs to ts with the sleeve jumped to negative on the trs side. This on the input and output.

This is contrary to the rane 110 note for the output, which it says not to couple and leave hanging. Not in this case.

Sadly, the rane 110 note is not true in all cases and there is a lot of conflicting info around, namely: couple ground and neg on the unbalanced side, jump sleeve to negative on the balanced side, and leave sleeve floating on the unbalanced side. I tried every possible permutation.

The Trs to ts mic input also was not as the rane note says. What ended up being quietest was straight ts cable and grounding the neutrik patch bay cards to the chassis with the internal metal clips.

The ebtech line isolation transformer ruined everything in all cases. The Hum X also only made a slight negligible difference in one case when put on the Mac Pro running Pro Tools.

I talked to Echo Fix about potential ground loops and rfi, emi on the re-201 and they suggested an internal grounding patch which I soldered in, also to negligible result.

Fortunately ive narrowed the salient problem down to dirty ac but unfortunately am still waiting on a tripp lite AC iso transformer and until then this entire studio has been rendered useless. Ideally I would get a Kikusui but ~4-6k is out of budget for a capricious problem like this.

I also looked into possibly lining the main rack with faraday material. Has anyone ever had to go to that extent?

Last edited by camadair; 8th December 2019 at 11:08 AM..
Old 9th December 2019
  #22
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Ditch the SONY and get a fully balanced mic pre amp. That will solve many problems.
Old 9th December 2019
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTheLine View Post
Ditch the SONY and get a fully balanced mic pre amp. That will solve many problems.
I have a 1073. I like the sony.
Old 9th December 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
I have a 1073. I like the sony.
Well, if you want, Upload/link a picture of the power supply for the Flea 47. I will contact Flea for the specs and I'll talk to my friend who has been designing audio gear for 50 years, and I'll find out from him the BEST solution.

Just to clarify.

the signal goes.

Mic--->Flea power supply--->Mic tie panel---->SONY pre amp--->trs patchbay--->Symphony interface.

I still believe you can build the right cable to go from MI power supply to the sony pre amp.

I noticed Flea listed 2 power supplies for the 47 mic, a normal and a "vintage power supply". This may be an issue.

"The following is the AES industry standard for balanced audio XLR wiring, commonly known as "pin-2 hot".
Some manufacturers, especially in vintage equipment, do not follow this standard and instead reverse the polarity of pin 2 and 3."

If your mic power supply uses an impedance matched balanced output(only signal on one pin) AND if they used a "vintage" output of "pin 3 hot" then you could have made the right cable per RANE website AND it would not work right.
Old 9th December 2019
  #25
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Thanks, the noise floor was fine before the move. Im going to wait for the tripp lite transformer. If that doesnt work im going to look into a used kikusui ac psu.
Old 9th December 2019
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
After a lot of trial and error, what ended up working best with the SRA-3 was Trs to ts with the sleeve jumped to negative on the trs side. This on the input and output.

This is contrary to the rane 110 note for the output, which it says not to couple and leave hanging. Not in this case.

Sadly, the rane 110 note is not true in all cases and there is a lot of conflicting info around, namely: couple ground and neg on the unbalanced side, jump sleeve to negative on the balanced side, and leave sleeve floating on the unbalanced side. I tried every possible permutation.

The Trs to ts mic input also was not as the rane note says. What ended up being quietest was straight ts cable and grounding the neutrik patch bay cards to the chassis with the internal metal clips.

The ebtech line isolation transformer ruined everything in all cases. The Hum X also only made a slight negligible difference in one case when put on the Mac Pro running Pro Tools.

I talked to Echo Fix about potential ground loops and rfi, emi on the re-201 and they suggested an internal grounding patch which I soldered in, also to negligible result.

Fortunately ive narrowed the salient problem down to dirty ac but unfortunately am still waiting on a tripp lite AC iso transformer and until then this entire studio has been rendered useless. Ideally I would get a Kikusui but ~4-6k is out of budget for a capricious problem like this.

I also looked into possibly lining the main rack with faraday material. Has anyone ever had to go to that extent?
Your issue on the mic inputs is that most microphones are balanced, either transformer or cross-coupled. Both the Flea and the RE-201 are transformer balanced. If you leave the negative side floating (ring / pin 3) then you will get no signal, as you have found out. For the mic inputs you want to use wiring scheme 6 from the 110 note. In addition, with a passive mic like the RE-201, you have to make sure the mic body is properly grounded in order to reject EMI.

If you were trying to use the Ebtech with one of the non-transformer wiring schemes then that would just compound the issue. There is functionally no difference between an input and output isolation transformer; it's just a matter of wiring. If you use it with wiring scheme 6 and make that cable as short as possible you will have much better results. The other factor with a vintage piece like your Sony is that it doesn't have a 3 prong plug. It has no earth connection and is essentially floating with respect to the rest of your equipment. Have you experimented with grounding the chassis?

I think your overall issue in the new space might be with the quality of the grounding. How old is the building? The ability of equipment to block and reject RFI and power supply noise is very much dependent on how well it is connected to earth.
Old 10th December 2019
  #27
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I realize the thread is slightly off topic at this point.

The Tripp Lite IS came and it didnt make a difference.

For reference, attached is a picture of the signal (with the Tripp Lite IS on the AC mains). WARNING: It is NSFW. The noise floor is ok at around -70 or -80 dBFS from what I can tell but you can see the peaks of the shrill chirping sound. This is produced at every stage among all instruments, mics, and outboard in varying degrees, rendering the entire studio in this new location on sunset blvd completely useless.

If anyone knows what this monster is, or of a reputable tech LA who does electricity, grounding, emi, rfi, for studios, please lmk. Im at a big loss here and out of ideas.
Attached Thumbnails
What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-.jpg  

Last edited by camadair; 10th December 2019 at 09:49 AM..
Old 10th December 2019
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camadair View Post
I realize the thread is slightly off topic at this point.

The Tripp Lite IS came and it didnt make a difference.

For reference, attached is a picture of the signal (with the Tripp Lite IS on the AC mains). The noise floor is ok at around -70 or -80 dBFS from what I can tell but you can see the peaks of the shrill chirping sound. This is produced at every stage among all instruments, mics, and outboard in varying degrees, rendering the entire studio in this new location on sunset blvd completely useless.

If anyone knows what this monster is, or of a reputable tech LA who does electricity, grounding, emi, rfi, for studios, please lmk. Im at a big loss here and out of ideas.
Those chirps are cell signal modulation. In a high density urban area you’re probably within a few blocks of at least one cell tower. I think your first step is to look at the grounding scheme in the building.
Old 10th December 2019
  #29
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Hopefully you just need to build a faraday cage for one piece of gear!
Old 10th December 2019
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samwinston123 View Post
Those chirps are cell signal modulation. In a high density urban area you’re probably within a few blocks of at least one cell tower. I think your first step is to look at the grounding scheme in the building.
Thanks. It sounds like cell signal interference to me because its closer to a cell phone near a car radio than it is to the other rfi examples Ive listened to online here: http://www.arrl.org/sounds-of-rfi . I also read hvac, solar inverters, among other things emit 4k. Why do you say its a cell tower?


It is definitely radiated and not conducted. I plugged a single coil guitar into a battery amp to use as a HF analyzer and voila. With the amp volume all the way down, the exact same sputtering and 4k chirp was lucid. It gets worse near the ceiling and at two walls. Going to walk the whole building with the amp tomorrow.

I bought 20 ferrite clips but this interference is extremely strong. Im going to talk to the power company, fcc, building electrician and property owner. Not sure what to do. All this equipment and the only thing that works are the acoustic instruments, not to mention having moved a piano into here. What a nightmare.

Suggestions welcome/ needed.
Attached Thumbnails
What is a "cross-coupled" TRS?-image1.jpg  

Last edited by camadair; 10th December 2019 at 09:46 AM..
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