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Building microphone wall panels, no signal unless phantom power is off
Old 2nd May 2017
  #1
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Building microphone wall panels, no signal unless phantom power is off

So I hope this is the right place for this. I am installing mic panels on the walls to connect my control room to my tracking room in my home studio. In the control room, I just have standard XLR-M connectors, but in my tracking room I have XLR-F/TS combo jacks. When I plug a condenser microphone into it, I get no signal if phantom power is ON but when I turn it OFF I have a very faint signal. Any ideas?
Old 3rd May 2017
  #2
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Radardoug's Avatar
 

Did you use proper cable? Should be twin sheilded. Did you wire all three pins? Did you wire pin 1 at one end to pin one at the other end, and the same for the other pins?
Old 3rd May 2017
  #3
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SP2016's Avatar
Are you sure you used the right pins on the combo xlr ?
For instance Neutrik xlr combo connectors have seperate pins for xlr and jack.
If in doubt: Send us a photograph of the soldering side of the combo connector you use.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #4
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these are the products I am using:

Neutrik NCJ5FI-S Combo MONO 3-Pin XLRF / 1/4 Inch Jack Chassis Mount with Solder Cups
Neutrik NC3MDM3-L-1 DL Series XLR Chassis Connector - 3 pole male

I soldered Pin 1 and Pin S on the XLR/ts combo to Pin 1 on the XLR Male connector.
Then Soldered Pin 2 and Pin T to Pin 2
Then Pin 3 and Pin G to Pin 3
Old 3rd May 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
these are the products I am using:

Neutrik NCJ5FI-S Combo MONO 3-Pin XLRF / 1/4 Inch Jack Chassis Mount with Solder Cups
Neutrik NC3MDM3-L-1 DL Series XLR Chassis Connector - 3 pole male

I soldered Pin 1 and Pin S on the XLR/ts combo to Pin 1 on the XLR Male connector.
Then Soldered Pin 2 and Pin T to Pin 2
Then Pin 3 and Pin G to Pin 3
nope, that is wrong connection.
This is how it should be wired:

on the combo jack: pin 1 to shield, pin 2 to wire1, and pin 3 to wire2.

then on your male xlr: pin 1 to shield, pin 2 to wire 1, and pin3 to wire2

for the 1/4 inch jack portion:

T to pin 2 , S to pin 1.


the g lead is to the connector housing and its used more for sense circuitry and does not play a role in your application.

Old 3rd May 2017
  #6
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of course, if you were adding a di transformer on the 1/4 inch you would do : T to primary +, S to primary -, Secondary + to pin 2, Secondary - to pin 3.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #7
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I really appreciate the information. I am a little confused though. I am pretty amateur at this stuff.

When you say "Pin 1 to Shield", are you saying to solder a lead connecting Pin1 to PinS on the back of the combo jack? What exactly do you mean by "Wire 2 and 3"? I am reading that to say there will be nothing soldered to Pin 3 on the XLR M connector.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #8
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SP2016's Avatar
A correct microphone cable has two wires and a shield.
The two wires normally have a different color.
Solder the shield to pin 1, the two other wires to respectively pin 2 and 3, making sure that at the other end these two wires get to the same pin number.
Do not use the S and T pins on the combo connector, as these are for unbalanced jacks, so NOT for microphone connections.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #9
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Hmm... Well the idea was to have jacks that would allow me to send mic signal or say, a guitar to an amp in the room. Are you saying it is not possible to plug a guitar in that side and have it come to my XLR input on my interface? I feel like I was trying to make it more flexible but I may have made it more complicated haha
Old 3rd May 2017
  #10
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SP2016's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
Hmm... Well the idea was to have jacks that would allow me to send mic signal or say, a guitar to an amp in the room. Are you saying it is not possible to plug a guitar in that side and have it come to my XLR input on my interface? I feel like I was trying to make it more flexible but I may have made it more complicated haha
For what you want you have chosen the wrong combo's.
You would need the Neutrik NCJ6FI-S-0 Combo 3-Pin XLRF / 1/4 Inch Stereo.
A couple of wire links will give you the possibility to use either XLR microphones or balanced/unbalanced jack connection.

Last edited by SP2016; 3rd May 2017 at 07:46 PM..
Old 3rd May 2017
  #11
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Well I don't mind using it one way or the other. That was kind of the point. Are you saying As of now, with what I have, I can use it either as a mic or 1/4" unbalanced? or are you saying if I have the stereo version, THEN I would be able to use it as either mic or 1/4" unbalanced? I may just say screw it and do just xlr to xlr and install seperate 1/4" TS jacks.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #12
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SP2016's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
Well I don't mind using it one way or the other. That was kind of the point. Are you saying As of now, with what I have, I can use it either as a mic or 1/4" unbalanced? or are you saying if I have the stereo version, THEN I would be able to use it as either mic or 1/4" unbalanced? I may just say screw it and do just xlr to xlr and install seperate 1/4" TS jacks.
YES: If you have the stereo version combi you can use XLR microphones, balanced jacks and unbalanced jacks.
That is the easiest way and you do not need seperate jacks.
Just a matter of the right combo's and some wiring, that's it.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #13
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Ok cool. I think I actually have some stereo versions lying around somewhere that I never used. I really appreciate your advice. I will give it a shot.
Old 3rd May 2017
  #14
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SP2016's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
Ok cool. I think I actually have some stereo versions lying around somewhere that I never used. I really appreciate your advice. I will give it a shot.
It will only work with stereo versions.
You will need to make some wire links on the connector:
T to pin 2, R to pin 3 and S to pin 1.
That should do it ! Have fun...
Attached Thumbnails
Building microphone wall panels, no signal unless phantom power is off-combi-backside.png   Building microphone wall panels, no signal unless phantom power is off-combi-wiring.png  
Old 3rd May 2017
  #15
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I was always under the impression that a TS plug into a TRS jack would only work if it was only plugged in halfway
Old 4th May 2017
  #16
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Not if you are using a balanced input on your mixing console or pre-amp, which you will need using a microphone.
A TS jack will connect pin 3 to pin 1, thus making the input unbalanced.
Old 5th May 2017
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
Hmm... Well the idea was to have jacks that would allow me to send mic signal or say, a guitar to an amp in the room. Are you saying it is not possible to plug a guitar in that side and have it come to my XLR input on my interface? I feel like I was trying to make it more flexible but I may have made it more complicated haha
mic or 1/4 unbalanced line. a guitar signal is too low so it would need to have a step up transformer. the 1/4 inch unbalance jacks are electrically seperate from the xlr pins so you could either insert a di transformer there or a buffer amp (like interfaces do)

the wiring scheme I showed you earlier is for xlr or 1/4 line (like for keyboard or a preamp out on a guitar amp) also, if you want to isolate pin 2 in case of global phantom on your 1/4 inch, you would use a [email protected] polypropylene cap in place of the 1/4 jack tip (T) to xlr pin 2 wire jumper.
Old 5th May 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SP2016 View Post
Not if you are using a balanced input on your mixing console or pre-amp, which you will need using a microphone.
A TS jack will connect pin 3 to pin 1, thus making the input unbalanced.
pin 3 is signal - so your input is inverted in phase.

proper in phase unbalanced connection happens at pin 2 to ground.

pin 3 was positive on mid 70s European consoles and is not the established standard.
Old 5th May 2017
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
I was always under the impression that a TS plug into a TRS jack would only work if it was only plugged in halfway
half-normaling will work, but its better to use the correct jack for the correct connection.

SP2016 has a lot of disinformation in this thread.
Old 5th May 2017
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmsuter View Post
I really appreciate the information. I am a little confused though. I am pretty amateur at this stuff.

When you say "Pin 1 to Shield", are you saying to solder a lead connecting Pin1 to PinS on the back of the combo jack? What exactly do you mean by "Wire 2 and 3"? I am reading that to say there will be nothing soldered to Pin 3 on the XLR M connector.
pin 1 of xlr to the cable's shield. then pin 2 to one of the centercondictors ( i use the colored one, sometimes its red inside others are blue, etc) and pin 3 to the clear or white wire.

Like this:
Attached Thumbnails
Building microphone wall panels, no signal unless phantom power is off-xlr-soldered-close-up.jpg   Building microphone wall panels, no signal unless phantom power is off-xlr-pinout.jpg  
Old 5th May 2017
  #21
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Phantom power requires 48V on pin 2 and 3 (the signal lines) and pin 1 is the ground connection of the phantom power. so phantom powered mics need connection of pins 1, 2, and 3 for them to work correctly, and dynamic mics only need pins 2&3. If you add unbalanced input to the mix, you add a phantom blocking caps are inseted between pin 2 and 1/4 tip. sleeve is to pin 1 which is the neutral and DC ground of the system.
Old 5th May 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiospacific2 View Post
half-normaling will work, but its better to use the correct jack for the correct connection.

SP2016 has a lot of disinformation in this thread.
Pardon me for disagreeing:
In several studio situations I have used XLR's at the control room side and combi jacks in the studio.
The way I described will give you the opportunity to connect microphones (dynamic or condensor) in the studio, using the XLR part of the combi connector.
In the control room the xlr then goes to a balanced input of a mixing console or pre-amp and phantom power can be applied.

If you want to plug in an unbalanced source in the studio you use a TS jack.
When plugged in, the TS jack connects pin 3 and 1 of the XLR at the control room side, making an unbalanced signal to the mixing desk or pre-amp.
If you use a piece of equipment in the studio that has a balanced output on a trs jack you also can use that, because at the control room side you just pick up a balanced signal.
Do make sure the phantom power is disconnected using TS and/or TRS jacks !!

The international protocol for XLR is that pin 2 is + (hot), pin 3 is - (cold) and pin 1 is ground.
(Also see the legend on the picture you posted).
So pin 3 is NOT signal and NOT in phase as Audiospacific2 suggests.
In the early days it was pin 3 hot, 2 cold and 1 ground.
There was a lot of confusion with U.K. and U.S.A equipment as these countries had different ideas about xlr pin configurations.
Quite some time ago the professional world came to an agreement that pin 2 was + (hot), pin 3 was - (cold) and pin 1 was ground.

You are also wrong that dynamic microphones only use pin 2 and 3. Dynamic microphones also use the screen on pin 1.
Finally: This kind of wiring also allows for sending signals from the control room to the studio.
The wires do not mind...

So not a lot of disinformation, more a lack of understanding.
Old 6th May 2017
  #23
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I never said pin 3 is hot or signal non-inverted. That was an European standard that went away in the late 70's and most of the older stuff was redone to fit the standard convention.

on xlr to 1/4 t-s unbalanced: it goes from pin 2 to tip and pin 1 to sleeve. The only exception to this is when they don't reference the preamp's signal to ground. then it would 2 (+) to 3(-) but I've only seen this in transformer inputs like an old TAB console. you'll find diagrams that strap 3 to 1, but its for compatibility to these systems. In most cases you can use pins 2 and 3 to a 1/4" ts, but you will need to put phantom blocking caps in on the connections to the 1/4" jack. In that connection scheme, you would use a [email protected] between pin 2 of the xlr to 'T' of the 1/4" jack and a [email protected] between the pin 3 of the xlr to 'S' of the 1/4" jack
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