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Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker
Old 9th July 2020
  #2041
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
Is anyone able to describe technically, what the actual difference is between a high ranking DA AD and a low one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
The result from each test consists in four figures. Both first figures are the gains to be applied to the left and right channels of the loopback copy (download links available for a large part of the tests) for listening in comparison with the original. Both last figures are the RMS level values of the left (L) and right (R) channels of the difference between the original and the time and level aligned copy generated in Matlab by applying to the lopback copy a time delay, the same for both channels, and the L and R gains, the values of which given here are rounded to the nearest 0.1 dB. Precise values of these three parameters, determined to get the lowest maximum of L and R difference levels, were provided for each test before it was inserted in this list, except for the old ones that were initially measured by means of Audio DiffMaker and the result values of which have been meanwhile replaced without notification in this thread.
The ranking is made according to the maximum of the L and R difference levels.

list of the results
Old 8th August 2020
  #2042
Gear Head
 
erickgc182's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
The ranking is made according to the maximum of the L and R difference levels.

list of the results
Thanks for this all this work Didier! Could you measure "The big Mastering Converters shootout" files ?
Old 8th August 2020
  #2043
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by erickgc182 View Post
Could you measure "The big Mastering Converters shootout" files ?
I measured some of these loopback files six months ago when I found them from here. At that time only the following ones, of which I have retrieved the results, were available.

Antelope Pure2
0.0 dB (L), 0.1 dB (R), -55.3 dBFS (L), -55.5 dBFS (R)

Forssell MADA2
0.0 dB (L), 0.0 dB (R), -48.5 dB (L), -48.8 dBFS (R)

Apogee MKii 16x16
0.1 dB (L), -0.0 dB (R), -55.3 dBFS (L), -55.5 dBFS (R)

Lavry Gold + 10M
0.0 dB (L), 0.1 dB (R), -50.9 dBFS (L), -51.3 dBFS (R)

Lynx Aurora (n)
0.0 dB (R), 0.0 dB (L), -57.2 dBFS (L), -58.1 dBFS (R)

Prism Dream 8XR
-0.0 dB (L), -0.0 dB (R), -53.1 dBFS (L), 53.2 dBFS (R)

HEDD Quantum
-0.0 dB (L), 0.0 dB (R), -50.3 dBFS (L), -50.4 dBFS (R)

Merging Anubis
-0.0 dB (L), -0.0 dB (R), -50.1 dBFS (L), -50.3 dBFS (R)

List of the results of the loopback test of this thread based on the original Original2.wav.

Last edited by didier.brest; 9th August 2020 at 12:24 PM..
Old 9th August 2020
  #2044
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
At that time only the following ones, of which I have retrieved the results, were available.
Among the new ones, Bricasti M1 SE + Pacific Microsonics Model 2 and Bricasti M1 SE + Weiss ADC2 were recorded in asynchronous mode. Hence I will not measure them. Two other new files from Aran Lavi's loopback test based on the original Scissors Mix - Original Mix.wav:

Lynx Hilo
0.1 dB (L), 0.0 dB (R), -57.4 dBFS (L), -58.4 dBFS (R)

Merging HAPI
0.0 dB (L), 0.0 dB (R), -52.9 dBFS (L), -53.2 dBFS (R)

DAD AX32
DAD AX32 DAAD Loopback.wav is the same like Scissors Mix - Original Mix.wav shifted ahead by 68 samples and padded at the end with 2 x 3950 null samples.

List of the results of the loopback test of this thread based on the original Original2.wav.

Last edited by didier.brest; 11th August 2020 at 08:08 AM..
Old 10th August 2020
  #2045
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kuasalogam's Avatar
 

I'm hoping someone with VRS8 jumps in with this test
Old 15th August 2020
  #2046
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hugoclubs's Avatar
Hi.

I really don't know if I am doing this well (it has being a long time since I messed around with any daw), but I really would like to give my contribution.

So, please correct me if I did something wrong:
DAW used - Logic Pro X
- I connected Jack cable of output 1 to mic input 1
- I connected Jack cable of output 2 to mic input 2
- I placed "original2" file in track one
- I created a new track selecting only the "Audio Input 1" and output 1+2
- I created a new track selecting only the "Audio Input 2" and output 1+2
- I selected record on both of this two new tracks and hit the REC on top

Is this the way to do it?

If not could someone help me out?

Please note that I performed this operation with unbalanced Jack cables (I suppose they are unbalanced because they only have one stripe right?).
Is this a problem?

Device: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14

Download link:
https://we.tl/t-bcfyEZ68KQ
Old 15th August 2020
  #2047
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hugoclubs View Post
Device: Focusrite Saffire Pro 14
-856.40 µs, 27.8610 dB (L), 27.6105 (R) Difference: -39.8901 dBFS (L), -40.6182 dBFS (R)

It's OK although the level of your loopback is very low, about 28 dB below the original. You might have a better result by using the back panel line inputs 3 and 4 set at low gain in the Saffire MixControl software (see p.12 of this user manual with the monitor level control knob in the Saffire MixControl software (p.20 of the user manual) set so that the loopback level is lower than but close to the original one, which you should get near 0 dB gain.
Old 16th August 2020
  #2048
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hugoclubs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
-856.40 µs, 27.8610 dB (L), 27.6105 (R) Difference: -39.8901 dBFS (L), -40.6182 dBFS (R)

It's OK although the level of your loopback is very low, about 28 dB below the original. You might have a better result by using the back panel line inputs 3 and 4 set at low gain in the Saffire MixControl software (see p.12 of this user manual with the monitor level control knob in the Saffire MixControl software (p.20 of the user manual) set so that the loopback level is lower than but close to the original one, which you should get near 0 dB gain.
Hi,

Did you meant set at Hi gain instead of "set at low gain"?
At Low gain I had the same results. I had better results set at High Gainm but the sound is horrible

test2 - https://we.tl/t-V8D6gxJGYh


I also tried setting line inputs as instruments (instead of lines) and the result is similar to test2.
https://postimg.cc/TLR0FCxp

test3 -https://we.tl/t-16Wl0VZRv3

I hope one of this do the trick.

Thanks
Old 16th August 2020
  #2049
Gear Nut
I picked up an Apogee Quartet instead of the Duet for AB testing / shootout. I will try to post results for the 828ES, Quartet and Forte. I haven't done a direct AB with the MOTU but from acutal critical listening from the DAC side owning all three units, the Apogee and MOTU sonically sounds very close. Both seem to have a similar characteristic with more clarity and details in the midrange frequencies, better separation and a tigher, punchier bottom end lower frequencies. The Forte sounded slighter thinner in the midrange frequencies, and the bottom end rolled off. I've yet to shootout the ADC side.
Old 17th August 2020
  #2050
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hugoclubs View Post
Did you meant set at Hi gain instead of "set at low gain"?
No. Lo setting (low gain) allows for 22 dB higher analog input level before clipping (p.12 of the user guide). If you set the line inputs at Hi (high gain), input clipping is likely the reason why
Quote:
Originally Posted by hugoclubs View Post
the sound is horrible
and the measurement results are poor:

test 2
-866.02 µs, -3.4375 dB (L), -3.0862 dB (R), Difference: -22.3901 dBFS (L), -20.8303 dBFS (R)

test 3
-864.61 µs, -3.5680 dB (L), -3.0585 dB (R), Difference: -21.6684 dBFS (L), -20.3437 dBFS (R)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hugoclubs View Post
At Low gain I had the same results.
It may not improve the result from test 1 but you should get a normal level, close to the one of the original unlike your test 1 the level of which is near 30 dB lower.
For setting the playback level, there are two options:
* Enabling the monitor control (p.18 of the user guide, buttons 1 and 2 shall be blue) and set the gain with the monitor level control knob (p.20 of the user guide) just low enough (likely a bit lower than 0 dB) so that the loopback level does not exceed the original level.
* Disabling the monitor control (buttons 1 and 2 shall be grey). This is OK if the loopback level does not exceed the original level, which should be the case.

Last edited by didier.brest; 17th August 2020 at 01:41 PM..
Old 17th August 2020
  #2051
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 360studios15 View Post
I will try to post results for the 828ES, Quartet and Forte.
Your loopback tests will be welcome.
Old 17th August 2020
  #2052
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Your loopback tests will be welcome.
If I have time, I can try clocking My 828ES with the Apogee.
Old 18th August 2020
  #2053
Gear Head
 
hugoclubs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post

It may not improve the result from test 1 but you should get a normal level, close to the one of the original unlike your test 1 the level of which is near 30 dB lower.
For setting the playback level, there are two options:
* Enabling the monitor control (p.18 of the user guide, buttons 1 and 2 shall be blue) and set the gain with the monitor level control knob (p.20 of the user guide) just low enough (likely a bit lower than 0 dB) so that the loopback level does not exceed the original level.
* Disabling the monitor control (buttons 1 and 2 shall be grey). This is OK if the loopback level does not exceed the original level, which should be the case.
I messed arround with the knobs until there was near feedback on the speakers and I was able to record louder. For the next 2 tests the knobs were set like this:
2 gains: 9:00 o'clock
1 monitor: 3:00 o'clock

test 4: https://we.tl/t-por9TORhjT ---> (Enabling the monitor control (p.18 of the user guide, buttons 1 and 2 shall be blue) ...........)

test 5: https://we.tl/t-m7qHAkczIX * Disabling the monitor control (buttons 1 and 2 shall be grey)

Let's hope this time it's good. If not I will do again until I get it right
Thank you for your patience Didier.

P.S. I am so bad at this that I should just stick to playing the real instruments
Old 18th August 2020
  #2054
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didier.brest's Avatar
test 4
-865.81 µs, -7.4295 dB (L), -6.7425 dB (R), Difference: -20.4913 dBFS (L), -19.0158 dBFS (R)

test5
-865.81 µs, -7.4447 dB (L), -6.7560 dB (R) Difference: -20.4871 dB (L), -19.0115 dB (R)

Both loopbacks are clipping. The names of your files indicate that you have used front panel inputs 1&2 like in test 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
You might have a better result by using the back panel line inputs 3 and 4 set at low gain in the Saffire MixControl software (see p.12 of this user manual
Yes, set at low gain: Lo !

For outputs 1&2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
there are two options:
* Enabling the monitor control (p.18 of the user guide, buttons 1 and 2 shall be blue) and set the gain with the monitor level control knob (p.20 of the user guide) just low enough (likely a bit lower than 0 dB) so that the loopback level does not exceed the original level.
* Disabling the monitor control (buttons 1 and 2 shall be grey). This is OK if the loopback level does not exceed the original level, which should be the case.
The monitor control knob is the one in the Saffire MixControl software not the physical one on the front panel which should be set to 0 dB so that it would have no effect according to this note at page 20 of the user guide:

Note that the front panel Monitor control affects only outputs 1 and 2, and is an additional volume control on top of the monitor level set in Saffire MixControl software.

But where is 0 dB on the scale from 0 to 10 ?

Use outputs 3 and 4 that should not be affected by the front panel monitor knob. Then buttons 3 and 4 in the Saffire MixControl software shall be blue (software control of the monitoring level enabled) or grey (software control of the monitoring level disabled, preferred option provided that the loopback level does not exceed the original level).

As a resume: line outputs 3&4 with or without (preferred) software level control in line inputs 3&4 set at Lo should be your best options.

List of the results

Last edited by didier.brest; 18th August 2020 at 11:30 PM..
Old 18th August 2020
  #2055
Quote:
Originally Posted by 360studios15 View Post
I picked up an Apogee Quartet instead of the Duet for AB testing / shootout. I will try to post results for the 828ES, Quartet and Forte. I haven't done a direct AB with the MOTU but from acutal critical listening from the DAC side owning all three units, the Apogee and MOTU sonically sounds very close. Both seem to have a similar characteristic with more clarity and details in the midrange frequencies, better separation and a tigher, punchier bottom end lower frequencies. The Forte sounded slighter thinner in the midrange frequencies, and the bottom end rolled off. I've yet to shootout the ADC side.

I’m thinking about picking up the 828es so definitely interested to how it compares to the list.
Old 22nd August 2020
  #2056
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Anyone tested the SSL 2 or 2 plus?
Old 23rd August 2020
  #2057
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didier.brest's Avatar
Test of the Presonus Quantum (26x32) by spankjam

44.115 µs, -0.0568 dB (L), -0.0346 dB (R), -45.2384 dBFS (L), -46.2599 dBFS (R)

To be added to the next issue of the list of the results.

Last edited by didier.brest; 2 weeks ago at 10:36 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2058
Here for the gear
Filed tests - will redo in a new post

Last edited by 2mmi; 2 weeks ago at 12:37 AM.. Reason: Failed Test files. - will redo.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2059
Here for the gear
Loopback test from Eventide H9000R
http://www.mediafire.com/file/fof66c...0R(4).wav/file


Eventide H9000R clock via MADI Rme MADIface Pro
http://www.mediafire.com/file/cvm340...ro(2).wav/file
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2060
Here for the gear
One more:
Analog heat mkII as soundcard:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yka4ft...+MKII.wav/file
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2061
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
340.136 µs, 0.2017 dB (L), 0.2017 dB (R), Difference: -141.6278 dBFS (L), -141.5315 dBFS (R)

Weird result. 340.136 µs x 44100 Hz = 15.0000 samples: has this loopback test gone through some analog path ?

Last edited by didier.brest; 2 weeks ago at 11:12 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2062
Here for the gear
I'm so sorry for that MADI routing gone wrong..

Here is a redo of the DAD AX24 (a version with Mic input cards)


DAD AX24
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ooi4ou...V2(2).wav/file

DAD AX24 Mic input at -15dB
http://www.mediafire.com/file/t7d19n...dB(2).wav/file

DAD AX24 clocked via RME MADIface Pro
http://www.mediafire.com/file/7kji1w...e+Pro.wav/file
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2063
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
-1.337683 ms, -0.0075 dB (L), -0.0552 dB (R), -77.9506 dBFS (L), -77.9520 dBFS (R)

1.337683 ms x 44100 Hz = 58.9918. Please could you check this one also ? If you unplug the analog cables, the recorded audio shall be noise only.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2064
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
-1.098803 ms, -0.0611 dB (L), 0.0282 dB (R), -46.1325 dBFS (L), -46.8343 dBFS (R)

To be added to the next issue of the list of the results.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2065
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
Analog heat mkII as soundcard
-1.052994 ms, 5.0777 dB (L), 4.8558 dB (R), -43.4713 dBFS (L), -44.6192 dBFS (R)

To be added to the next issue of the list of the results.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2066
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
DAD AX24 Mic input at -15dB
-1.098900 ms, 0.9515 dB (L), 0.9767 dB (R), -46.8583 dBFS (L), -47.4162 dBFS (R)

To be added to the next issue of the list of the results.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2067
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
DAD AX24 clocked via RME MADIface Pro

-1.121480 ms, -0.0594 dB (L), 0.0296 dB (R), -46.1512 dBFS (L), -46.8497 dBFS (R)

To be added to the next issue of the list of the results.

Last edited by didier.brest; 2 weeks ago at 11:56 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2068
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
-1.337683 ms, -0.0075 dB (L), -0.0552 dB (R), -77.9506 dBFS (L), -77.9520 dBFS (R)

1.337683 ms x 44100 Hz = 58.9918. Please could you check this one also ? If you unplug the analog cables, the recorded audio shall be noise only.
I also redid the Eventide test..
And this time i've tripled checked that analog audio was running thru the xlr cables !!!.

Eventide H9000R
http://www.mediafire.com/file/8hcpxi...92020.wav/file

Eventide H9000R clocked via MADIface Pro
http://www.mediafire.com/file/vfkaiz...92020.wav/file
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2069
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didier.brest's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
Eventide H9000R
-1.337683 ms, -0.0070 dB (L), -0.0551 dB (R), -77.9597 dBFS (L), -77.9650 dBFS (R)

So good...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mmi View Post
And this time i've tripled checked that analog audio was running thru the xlr cables !!!
Did you check that no audio is recorded whit the same setup except for unpluggged analog out to analog in cables ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2070
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Did you check that no audio is recorded whit the same setup except for unpluggged analog out to analog in cables ?
Yes, I looked at my DAW´s waveform (studio one) while unplugging and plugging-in to verify.
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