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Testing Audix D6 and Josephson e22s mic & 4 way SSL X-Logic mic pre unit - on drums
Old 12th April 2005
  #31
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

a [ahem] friend of mine keeps sending me tracks done with those e22's and they sound horribly thin.... do they work better with certain pre's?
Old 12th April 2005
  #32
I dunno you would have to ask someone that own's some, we were in deluxe test mode so used the loaner unit SSL X series mic pre on it..

Seems fine but then overall beef can come from overheads / room / too eh?

See with reference to the old SM57 - what use is beef on that when the firt thing you wan to do is try to get some HF out of it (thus leaving the beef behind) and then getting a load of horrendus Hi Hat spill sound into the bargain..

From my one session experience I can see that like some ribbon mic's, the e22s "takes eq well"

It was funny seeing my co-engineers face as I swept the boosted frequency around to find the right one to add a crispy 'snap', it lit right up!...... sure it boosted spill from HH & OH's as one would expect, but in a very SWEET way (or certainly sweeter than our experience with EQ'ing a SM57 on snare.. ) He (Tom) wants a 414 for snare anyway, but was loving this for it's 'stay out of the way size and sonics...

Two days tracking, one drum kit. one drummer... perhaps other e22s owners can chime in?
Old 12th April 2005
  #33
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
See with reference to the old SM57 - what use is beef on that when the firt thing you wan to do is try to get some HF out of it (thus leaving the beef behind) and then getting a load of horrendus Hi Hat spill sound into the bargain..
im a bit perplexed by this as well.... i do everything in my power to AVOID hi-hat spill into the snare mic [either by rear rejection on a card or the null point on a f8 on the snare side]
Old 12th April 2005
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
im a bit perplexed by this as well.... i do everything in my power to AVOID hi-hat spill into the snare mic
So should everyone, but 'crunch time' is once the snare is recorded, or the mic's are all set up, you come to crank in a little HF...............what happens when you do.

I found, when you do, the spill sounds.... OK, or "not as bad as with a SM57"

Add to this the fact that the mic (e22s) is v skinny and fits into the smallest gap...

Its v convenient...
Old 12th April 2005
  #35
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
So should everyone, but 'crunch time' is once the snare is recorded, or the mic's are all set up, you come to crank in a little HF...............what happens when you do...

thats why i usually go for a higher pitched snare for recording [tune it higher than "normal"]... no need to crank HF later and get a better crack. its EASY to add the beef rather than deal with the HF content in mix [cause the hat always invades the sound and mucks up compression and imaging of the drums, snare specifically being centered]
Old 12th April 2005
  #36
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

I liked the 451 on snare for a while because I had answivel angler attachement I could syick on like a pad. It made a better angle with the bottom mike, which I find as the necessary no eq mic placement. I stopped using 57s because I couldn't get a good match with the 2 mics. I use 2 604s now because itìs the placement that counts. Think about Aristotle. Bottom mis is clamped on and exactly opposing top mic., thunder.
Old 12th April 2005
  #37
Originally Posted by Jules
See with reference to the old SM57 - what use is beef on that when the firt thing you wan to do is try to get some HF out of it (thus leaving the beef behind) and then getting a load of horrendus Hi Hat spill sound into the bargain..


That was so poorly written and riddled with typos I think I better have another stab at it. Apologies to all.....

What good is the snare 'beef' on an SM57 if the first thing you (or at least I) want to do is ADD a little HF?

Because all this procedure does is.... degrades, or leaves behind the original beef, and reveals nasty hh spill that makes you want to tear your hair out..
Old 12th April 2005
  #38
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
What good is the snare 'beef' on an SM57 if the first thing you (or at least I) want to do is ADD a little HF?
see above... i start with the snare first. and i usually opt for a CM700 on snare over the 57.
Old 12th April 2005
  #39
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joaquin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
thats why i usually go for a higher pitched snare for recording [tune it higher than "normal"]... no need to crank HF later and get a better crack. its EASY to add the beef rather than deal with the HF content in mix [cause the hat always invades the sound and mucks up compression and imaging of the drums, snare specifically being centered]
Hi Alpha. I think that pitch and harmonic content are too different things. I mean, one thing is the pitch of the snare, it's fundamental note, and another is the richness of the sound it self with respect to harmonic content...there goes too, the mic selection and it's capability to handle or accent especific Frequencies.
....well, that's what I think...
Old 12th April 2005
  #40
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alphajerk's Avatar
 

well, its a combination of many things. the head, the shell, the stick/tips, the way the drummer hits it... the pitch you tune it at move up the frequencies it maintains. all that becomes greater than the sum or whatever.

when i mention bringing it up in pitch, i dont mean by a whole lot and relative to the shell used. im not trying to make a deep shell sound like a piccolo. or even a wood sound like a metal shell.

anyway, i was just wondering because the last thing in the world i want in my snare mic is hihat. not really trying to get into the details of recording snare other than simple hat rejection.
Old 16th April 2005
  #41
TML
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Smile

Just went to GT Center....picked up the D6 for a rock session....sounds like all the 400-500 is cut....using it with a 1073 and a api 560....found out we needed little eq to get the tick and thump....don't know if this mic has more uses....maybe floor......still on the fence about keeping it.........can do the same thing with a 560 and a 421..my usual......and have the 421 for other purposes........but I agree with the emo/punk sound....for sure...
Tim
Old 17th April 2005
  #42
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enharmonic's Avatar
 

"Actually, we haven't gotten anything for bass players. We have forgotten yooouuuuu"

Man...I fell out of my chair laughing...LOL. Jules, I might need to sample that at some point in the future if I may have your permission
Old 17th April 2005
  #43
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Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

I prefer the D6 to the D4 on kick, it just BLOOMS and requires little EQ, live or to tape. Has anyone tried an AEA R84 on its side inside the kick so the impact runs across the ribbon?
JvB
Old 23rd April 2005
  #44
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jchadstopherhuez's Avatar
 

right on..

d6 is a great mic...I use it on alot of stuff..I have been using it all the time in the kick with a ns10 speaker outside...and sometimes a lawson l47 about 4ft from the kik..

d6 into my api 312...bit of distressor as a limiter....wow !!!

would love to hear the e22's sometime..

jules...I really dig the drum sounds you get..nice job..your cymbals really sound silky and nice...how do you do it on PT...??

i have attatched a song that I just used the d6 on kick...a 26" darwin maple...the other drum mics were...coles 4038 into a sytek for the room, (room track copied...delayed 10ms and 15ms..and hard panned.) snare beyer 201, overheads...audio techinca 4031's into a manley tube preamp...the D6 on kick into an api 312....and, a sm7 near the snare...into a 1176 with all 4 buttons in...gtrs all oktava ribbons into neve 1272's, bass di into hardy m1, also used the d6 on a B15 that was used to reamp the bass track via a bass pod....vox are sm7, telefunken v76 and 1176....oh yeah, most of the vocal dbls and effects were through the D6...had to make good use of it......

mixed in pt mix...analog channel plugins, some filter bank eq...thats it....wish I could get my cymbals as cool as jules'

cheers.....j
Attached Files

01 I Know Why.mp3 (5.84 MB, 412 views)

Old 23rd April 2005
  #45
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Hey Mixman, Great song!!...a bit heavy on the over all compression though.
I really like the guitar sounds!! wich Octava are those?

How do you get a NS-10 speaker for such purpose...ditch the speaker? and where do you place it...against the outer skin of the BD?
Thanks............................Joaquin.
Old 23rd April 2005
  #46
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jchadstopherhuez's Avatar
 

thanks...

yeah..lots of c2/sslbus compression...we just liked it...

i should clarify the ns10 thing..its is the woofer out of an ns10 that has been mounted on a mic stand and also has a transformer on it so that I can just plug it into a mic preamp..

the d6 was inside the main kick..and the ns10 was about 4" outside of a 28" marching bass drum tuned about 1/3 down from the actual bass drum and placed directly in front of it...a heavy blanket was placed over the whole thing to help keep everything else out....btw..the d6 has no EQ or compression it....its a cool mic..

old studio trick that I saw when I was recording (as a musician) years ago...a buddy of mine constructed this for me...yamaha actually sells a similar version called the SUB KICK...I have used it before as well...

the guitar mics were oktava mL52 ribbons...that were given to me in exchange for a day of studio time...i have done some surfin and found that alot of folks dig these mics...they are fairly inexpensive...

the guitarists both used marshall 4x12 cabs....one used a jtm45 and the other, a jcm800....both played telecasters..so the oktavas really helped with the high end...

I also just used the oktava on a project next to my coles 4038....and man...the oktava won out a bit on most stuff...except drum overheads....the coles rocks there..

thanks for checking out the mix...

the band is www.missilesilosuite.com in case you want to check them out.

cheers
j
Old 24th April 2005
  #47
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chadly's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen
Has anyone tried an AEA R84 on its side inside the kick so the impact runs across the ribbon?
JvB

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a very, very brave man.
Old 24th April 2005
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixman499
jules...I really dig the drum sounds you get..nice job..your cymbals really sound silky and nice...how do you do it on PT...??....wish I could get my cymbals as cool as jules'

cheers.....j
Er...

lets see, beyond snazzy mic pre's & converters

1) Ribbon OH's
2) Tube Tech PEC1 (Pultec copy) for HF boost & Tom 'beef"
3) A drum buss with Plug ins - McDSP compressorbank / URS Neve 12 band Graphic (30hz + HF smiley face boost) / Phoenix set at 3 O'Clock on Dark Essence-Opal
4) URS Neve N12 plug in at mix down...
5) Cranesong STC-8 compressor lightly on mix buss

I would say, beyond 20+ years of experience, the real technical key to my overheads sound on PT is my use of the drum group plug-ins FROM THE START OF THE SESSSION

What it all does is -

1) Provides cymbal 'sustain' (a bit like and SSL compressor does) Setting the compression attack / bite / release etc is VERY CRITICAL!!! Here's what I want from it.
a) to make the kick and snare less "brutal" and more like a record, b) to 'pump' a little

2) Gives me 'close to mixed; sounding drums so I can make HF judgement calls on eq'ing the cymbals, adding a lick of eq to the close mic's (but not too much)

I find the drum aux plug ins keep me from adding too much outboard eq & compression.. You see.....with the plug ins doing a lot of the 'sweeetening work'.... I am printing drums fairly flat - not too "messed around with" . This is handy for many reasons, one of them being, that the stuff we record has about a 1 in 10 chance of being mixed by a "big hitter" mix engineer... if that happens - we havent done any thing TOO drastic that tey could complain about when they push up our drum faders..

Old 24th April 2005
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by enharmonic
"Actually, we haven't gotten anything for bass players. We have forgotten yooouuuuu"

Man...I fell out of my chair laughing...LOL. Jules, I might need to sample that at some point in the future if I may have your permission
That is my parody of a very cheezy flexi disk promoting this otherwise wonderfull product

http://www.sustainiac.com/

The demo of the guitar sound on the flexi disk (probably given away in a guitar mag) was going along great (albeit in a cheezy American, insincere voice-over stylee), untill the the magic words - "Bass players, we havent forgotten yoooooooooooooo" were announced - from then onwards it was downhill fast and me and a friend spent the rest of the demo recording rolling around on the floor laughing at the tortured effect the gizmo had on bass guitar.. heh

I did a session with one once and the player was a master, Dave Ranger, he wrote a collumn in gtr magazines and used to review pedals...it was awesome BTW and he did sessions for Sly & Robbie back in the 90's etc... but for bass....
Old 27th April 2005
  #50
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pigpen's Avatar
 

Glad to hear everyone loves the mics...makes me want to check that J out.
But I would like to hear more about the SSL pres. I am looking at one of the 4 channels. I currently have a 3124 , an UA 6176, and 4-old school Neve 1272's. I do alot of rock, some hip hop, and a little pop stuff. I am getting a stellar deal, but still don't want to waste the money if they aren't KILLER!
Whacha think...
thanks
daniel
Old 28th April 2005
  #51
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kosi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
I have since added SansApmed distorted copy tracks of the inner kick & SN to make it 'hip hop' breath a little more.... (I do that all the time anyway...)
Hey Jules, do you use a real (Hardware) Sansamp or the plugin ?

kosi
Old 29th April 2005
  #52
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jchadstopherhuez's Avatar
 

hey jules..

thanks for listing your drum tricks...nice stuff...I have just started really experimenting with ITB mixing...those are some good tips.

I realized ribbons were a big key long ago...they made my years on adats somewhat bearable...I have a trident desk now and have recently been using it for tracking...and then simply summing through it....relying on PT plugins...been pretty happy...but still missing something...inspiring to hear stuff you have done ITB and realize it CAN be done.

also...just got a chance to check out your studio....nice...you have a wonderful spot there.

cheers...

j
Old 6th November 2008
  #53
Old thread..

Post 25 has the MP3 of the audio..
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