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ITB vs. OTB FINALLY A COMPARISON Studio Monitors
Old 18th August 2007
  #91
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Well TBH with you I didn't listen to the files until after you announced - because I don't believe in these sort of things. Having said that, I thought there was a bit of a problem with the low end on #1 - certain frequenices were booming that shouldn't.

I thought #2 had a bit more control down there. So in that regard I agree with you.

It's something that's noticable when people listen back on not so ideal circumstances (like bookshelf speaker type set ups)/
Old 18th August 2007
  #92
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BradM's Avatar
I think I like #1 slightly better. Although I can hear things better in mix #2, especially the vocals. The instruments seem to have space carved out for them in a better way. Everything seem to be a smeared a little more in mix #1, but for whatever reason it works for this song.

I have no clue which is ITB and which is OTB. I think both mixes sound equally wide. I've ditched all my preconceived notions about what an ITB mix sounds like and what an OTB mix sounds like. There's always someone that proves me wrong.

What I'm really more curious about is: how long did it take you to do each mix?

Good job!

EDIT: I just saw the results. I think I consistently pick ITB mixes. Go figure.

Brad
Old 18th August 2007
  #93
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indie's Avatar
 

Hey Brad,
Thanks. As far as how long...don't exactly remember. I did these mixes a couple of weeks ago. But the editing/printing plugs etc takes the longest for sure...feels like forever sometimes. Once I get it on the board...not too long.

This band is really good at arranging their songs, so that helps...and they execute really well too.
Old 18th August 2007
  #94
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GYang's Avatar
It's quite usual for me to pick ITB over OTB in GS comparisons.
Might happen I'm completely wrong, but I never succeeded to make mix ITB so much better than OTB (of corse assuming that OTB mix is not complete ****).

What we have here is really matter of routines and preference.
One guy with palmtop and couple of plug ins might do same (or better ???) job ITB than same guy with analogue mixer. Quite possible, why not after all?

I'm not that guy anyway
Old 18th August 2007
  #95
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zak7's Avatar
 

Hey guys what are u really evaluating here? the capabilities of plug ins or what?

I mean the ITB mix was passed thru 2 channels of Midas,G1 and C1 .
So anyway is having certain analog characteristics..I liked it mix 1 too! but I wonder if I would preferred without the TG1 and the midas!! ...so is not a ITB bounced mix..have the analog charm there!

Anybody realized that?

"The other, is mixed completely in PT, coming out spdif 2 channels, through 2 Radar24 DA converters, clocked via Radar24, into 2 channels of Midas through TG1 and C1 back to Radar24 converters."
Old 18th August 2007
  #96
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Hey Micah, I might be a complete idiot and/or this question might have already been answered, but, what did the ITB mix go into after it made its rounds with the DA converter? Did it go back in to PT?
Old 18th August 2007
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
EDIT: I just saw the results. I think I consistently pick ITB mixes. Go figure.

Brad
+1 and i always pick them thinking it's OTB. whatever.

listened on a laptop but still. if i have to go to NASA to be able to pick out the 'real' one what's the point? indie, if you used the ssl plug on the channels how'd you use the URS plug? on the stereo buss or what?
Old 18th August 2007
  #98
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BigAl's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
I think a HUGE difference would have been if I mixed through an API or Neve...this is key.
Bingo!!!
Old 18th August 2007
  #99
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I don't think that you'd automatically see a huge improvement if you mixed on either an API or a Neve instead of the Midas.

Besides both of those (especialy the APIs) are considered as tracking consoles by most people. I used to work on a Neve 8068 mkII from time to time and although I LOVED to track through it, I wasn't crazy about mixing on it. The mizxes were a bit of a struggle, but the end result was decent. The same facility had an SSL and I'd mix on it when I could.

I currently mix through a Midas Venice 320 until I get my MCI 538c re-built.
I have carried my mixes to rooms where two of good friends work and one has a SSL 9080J and the other has a Neve 16x4 with 1073s (I don't know Neve model numbers that well.)
The stuff I do here at the house with the Midas sounds fine and they ask me how I get what I get.
Of course I have sixteen years of studio experience on them and generally my players and their instruments are better. The stuff I have mixed recently has been recorded under VERY good circumstances with fantastic great rooms, mics, pres, etc...

I consider my rig and recording/mix environment to be a HUGE compromise, but I make it work. I'd LOVE to have either of their rooms/rigs becaus I could work better and FASTER.

To me it is how you approach the mix.
On the last project I mixed (through the Midas) I purposely limited the number of compressors I used. I purposely limited myself to just slapback with an analog deck and some early reflecton reverb to put the GTRs in a "space" since they were single mic/mono sources.
Some of it was tracked at A&M Studios and some I did in my room back in '92 here in Texas.

What I hear in those mixes is largely coming from INDIE's mix style/technique.
The very fact that the two examples sound as close as they do tell you that.

DB
Old 18th August 2007
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
Hey Everybody,
I'm glad there are so many comments about this...it's very interesting for sure!

A little background with it: I first mixed this song ITB while trying to finish a couple of projects in a timely manner, so after pulling up the tracks, I felt this song could work ITB.
The band had no idea I was switching to ITB -- I don't think they care as long is it rocks --. But after submitting 2 itb mixes to them, the feeling was it doesn't have the same 'thing' going on....good, but not the same. SO, I remixed it on the board stemmed out and everyone was happy.
I wasn't trying to mix it EXACTLY the same between the 2, just make it sound good.

The ITB mix was done when I was using the URS Channel Strip demo...that thing is slammin.


Also, I agree these 2 are a little squished...I'm defintely no mastering guy, I just put on a little Massey to raise levels to commercial comparisons for the band...and to see how it would stand up to that type of thing.
I'll try to find some time to post the clips with no limiter, if you guys want.

All will be revealed today about which is which.
Thanks.
If your changing things in the mix the ITB vs OTB comparison is completely invalid. All we can tell is which mix was better, not which method sounded better
Old 18th August 2007
  #101
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I liked #1 better... I have no idea if it's ITB or OTB, because I've never mixed OTB. heh


WATYF
Old 18th August 2007
  #102
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indie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by raal View Post
+1 and i always pick them thinking it's OTB. whatever.

listened on a laptop but still. if i have to go to NASA to be able to pick out the 'real' one what's the point? indie, if you used the ssl plug on the channels how'd you use the URS plug? on the stereo buss or what?
hey raal,
I used the urs on gtrs, lead vocal, and mix buss. when that demo ended, I was pissed!!
Old 18th August 2007
  #103
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Hey Micah, We've talked before about the whole digital/analog mixing thing, and I just thought you might want to consider the fact that the analog would most likely shine a bit more if you weren't mixing in stems. When using stems, you are still doing a bunch of ITB summing, so there is already that internal math type of summing going on before you ever hit the console. I've noticed an increase of depth and an improvement in stereo imaging when spreading out tracks in a traditional manner. It doesn't surprise me that ITB would sound as good as mixing with stems, because the two aren't all that different. You are still using ITB summing (although not on the 2 buss).
Old 18th August 2007
  #104
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The Listener's Avatar
Just thinking some more about it while reading some replys... The mixes are ok, they could be also better, also ITB can be even closer to OTB with some other plug-ins (UAD, Algorithmix and similar) and some more time and ITB experience, but some characteristics still remain and even if it is two different mix versions it is still quite easy to know which is which... It is not just the mixer and style.
Also - both mixes were hybrid - part ITB, part OTB - I think the version with all OTB processing - all EQs and all compressors OTB would be even better...
And people - dopn't say that you couldn't tell a difference even if you did listen on some NASA equipment... if you only listened to a laptop speakers... I could tell a difference also on Avantones (mini speaker simulation).

I don't want to be a pain in the ass, I would just like people to try to understand sound better... To develop hearing abilities, to focus better, so there won't be no more loudness wars and less poor productions...

How many did pick #1 because it was just a little louder??? Check the original posters reply at the beginning when the first opinion (that preferes #1) was posted. It was almost revealing the test. Like "oh no guys - don't judge upon loudness", hehe...

Those small differences evolve over time - some recordings remain classical, some magic unfolds through time. A flashy bombastic movie (with "cheap" CGI) can amaze at a first sight, but the really intimate, deep story with great cinematograhy can move you far more...
Just my 2 cents and I rest my case.

Hope there will be some more ITB vs OTB mixes to judge. Or even - one mix - is it ITB or is it OTB? question - suffice for me... To check our personal sound idea / aesthetics and hearing some more...
Old 18th August 2007
  #105
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Everything cool here !!! but is not the same an ITB mix... just plain (internal bounce) than passing the mix thru 2 tracks on a console and using the TG1 and C1!!!!

so what is the point??

In terms of budget you could buy many other options with the cost of the midas, C1 and TG1.....

You could buy a summing box with a nice bus comp..Fatso ....or a stereo pre plus A.B, C...etc etc.

So what is the point...is just to know what mix do we you prefer?
Because yes is ITB mix but with a lot of help of our friends analog gear.. So I do not get the point...
Old 18th August 2007
  #106
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erock's Avatar
 

It seems to me that some people might find this comparison useless. But I don't know many people that would mix COMPLETELY in the box by choice. I know if I could afford it, I would run my final mixes through at least a really good hardware comp, eq, and converters. I think this is a good comparison. Its not as drastic and as strict as some people would like, but I think its a little more 'real world' appropriate. I know I learned something from listening to the two clips.
Old 18th August 2007
  #107
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The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by erock View Post
It seems to me that some people might find this comparison useless. But I don't know many people that would mix COMPLETELY in the box by choice. I know if I could afford it, I would run my final mixes through at least a really good hardware comp, eq, and converters. I think this is a good comparison. Its not as drastic and as strict as some people would like, but I think its a little more 'real world' appropriate. I know I learned something from listening to the two clips.
I hear you!
Old 18th August 2007
  #108
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rolo's Avatar
 

mix # 3 rocks
Old 18th August 2007
  #109
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thermos's Avatar
Haven't looked at the answer yet....

Its not going to prove anything, who cares? Nothing ever will except your own experiences. Its still fun though.

They both sound to totally rockin'. I like 2 better, and If I had to guess I would say that is the board one. Though I'm wrong about 90% of the time.

Edit: Ah! Right for once. It sounded more overtone rich to me (2). For whatever reason 1 sounded blurrier to me (sorry), though the low end was bigger. But still good, if the band had never heard one of your mixes through the board I think they would be totally happy with that one.

And yes, that URS plug rulez.

Last edited by thermos; 18th August 2007 at 07:44 PM.. Reason: saw results
Old 19th August 2007
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Antix View Post
i prefer the band in number 1 but the vocal eq in number 2... but i like the reverb on the vocals better in number 1.
I agree with this, the drums sound overcompressed in #2 but the vocals are bigger.
Old 19th August 2007
  #111
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Alex Niedt's Avatar
 

I'm listening on barely-existent laptop speakers, but I picked #2. I did read the thread before listening, then had someone play the files for me so I wouldn't know which file was which. I'm kinda intrigued since I mix all ITB. I'll have a listen on studio monitors tomorrow.
Old 19th August 2007
  #112
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indie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
Hey Micah, We've talked before about the whole digital/analog mixing thing, and I just thought you might want to consider the fact that the analog would most likely shine a bit more if you weren't mixing in stems. When using stems, you are still doing a bunch of ITB summing, so there is already that internal math type of summing going on before you ever hit the console. I've noticed an increase of depth and an improvement in stereo imaging when spreading out tracks in a traditional manner. It doesn't surprise me that ITB would sound as good as mixing with stems, because the two aren't all that different. You are still using ITB summing (although not on the 2 buss).
Hey man,
I agree with you....summing over more channels than 10 does make a difference.thumbsup It's just SO much easier for recall with less tracks on the board!!!
Old 19th August 2007
  #113
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
Hey man,
I agree with you....summing over more channels than 10 does make a difference.thumbsup It's just SO much easier for recall with less tracks on the board!!!
I hear ya bro Just putting it out there.

Keep up the good work!
Old 19th August 2007
  #114
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indie's Avatar
 

OH SNAP. Update for those who might care...
I just checked that session...I was only summing 8 channels out to the board.
I usually mix 22 channels on the Midas. But was trying something new-ish.
Old 19th August 2007
  #115
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
OH SNAP. Update for those who might care...
I just checked that session...I was only summing 8 channels out to the board.
I usually mix 22 channels on the Midas. But was trying something new-ish.
Now you can stop losing sleep at nightheh
But seriously....In my experience, the more spread out the mix the better the definition,impact,width,depth, and stereo imaging. It really makes a considerable difference.

GET RID OF THE MATH!

Keep rockinthumbsup
Old 20th August 2007
  #116
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firby's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by firby View Post
I listened on ety er4 earphones off of a thinkpad at work. Its really hard for me to hear much difference here. I think that I like 2 better so I hope its out of the box cuz I mix OTB and hence wish to "Win".

Certainly a testament to ITB mixing that I could not tell much difference. Maybe you whizzbang computer nerds are on to something. Did you use a control surface on the ITB mix or did you automate by hand with a mouse ? Come on, tell us your process... please ?
Ha Ha Ha.

I win! I am a wiener!

AWWWW YEAH!

I am a Golden Eared God!
Old 20th August 2007
  #117
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Are you two still doing Wilshire or The Wilshires? I really liked the stuff I heard - you two are great!

Your mixing doesn't suck either!heh
Old 21st August 2007
  #118
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indie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by juniorhifikit View Post
Are you two still doing Wilshire or The Wilshires? I really liked the stuff I heard - you two are great!

Your mixing doesn't suck either!heh
Hey, thanks! We're finishing up a new album for CBS Records now.
But I'm really having a blast mixing other people's stuff.heh
Old 21st August 2007
  #119
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OK, so what's the scoop: "Special" for example. Who played guitar? Did you mix it? let's hear some details!





sorry for hijacking the thread. maybe better as a PM
Old 21st August 2007
  #120
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indie's Avatar
 

Hey, I'll post here since someone else asked me who mixed 'Special' too...
Tom Lord-Alge. One of the only mixes I've heard 'raw' that didn't change in level or eq after mastering. The other mixer like this is Mark Endert -- so good.

As far as the guitars and bass on 'Special' that's me. That song was a demo recording done on the Roland 1680 in our apartment in LA! Crazy. Guitars were POD and sansamp pedal...crazy again.
The only thing NOT recorded on the 1680 were the drums...PT. Having Tom Lord-Alge mix covers a multitude of sins.heh
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