The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
The Sound of Sontec
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #211
Gear Maniac
 
darkalex's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
For the record, in science, anything below 95% confidence is considered chance because with enough participants in a test, there will always be some chance results that are way above 50% even if the files are identical.

So yes, scientifically, 70% is nothing special and can not be separated from pure guessing. (I'm not saying anyone was just guessing but it is accurate to say that 70% is nothing special).

Specific to what Phillip wrote: I read his comment as meaning that 70% was nothing special in the responses he got. Meaning that others also got 70% of the results right.



How would you even know? Now who is being rude here?

Alistair

I guess all of you forget what the original post was about, so I am a moron, fine, Philip isn’t right? That’s what all of you and his employer say despite the fact supported response I wrote here demonstrating nothing but sheer mockery by Phillip

Let me quote him from his original post: “we have set up an anonymous poll that will hopefully encourage participation with zero risk to reputation

I guess all of us are literate enough to understand the meaning of these two terms highlighted above.

And I’m not even taking into account the way Phil presented XPand’s results in mockery.

As for risk to reputation, I guess the few people who posted after me, including you Alastair, are saying that 70% is nothing special, and that is indeed a defamation for xpand stating his hearing skills aren’t up to par, especially considering that hearing is what is the most important skill of a mastering engineer

So indeed risking xpand’s reputation by whatever Matt thinks is “tongue in cheek”

Literally asking you to stop supporting this mess just because you’re even with Matt, matt’s a cool person, no issues with him, I respect him but that does not mean that I’m gonna blindly follow his assistant despite his shady practices and obviously disrespectful way of talking

Now answer me guys, all here, actually the op, did defame X Pand here, and his reputation, for sure, is at risk with the posted result

Ofcourse nothing spectacular should happen to him especially with this dead thread but still it is a negligence to the original commitment to protect the reputation and anonymity at all costs, the op did break it, and despite XPand answering Matt’s “cut some slack”, Matt completely ignored Xpand’s response and got back to the other posters.

I’m waiting for a justification, there is nothing you can justify, it is wrong and you should apologise.

You all are now blaming xpand and me, completely ignoring the mockery of Phillip and breach of agreement, and are even supporting him with this derogatory behaviour, great guys

Fairness 100
Old 8th November 2020
  #212
Lives for gear
 
b0se's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
^ Agree.

Matt does seem relaxed, knowledgeable and nice. That has nothing to do with Philip though, who publicised X-Pand's overall result in a mocking manner—in order to undermine him—while going against his own original word of privacy. It doesn't take a psychology degree to work that one out.

The overall result is limited in its usefulness anyway as there's no differentiation between boost/cuts/levels. The most interesting data is within specific use case criteria, for example 3dB+ mid/high boosts being more obvious while 1-2dB low cuts being less so.
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #213
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalex View Post
I guess all of you forget what the original post was about, so I am a moron, fine, Philip isn’t right? That’s what all of you and his employer say despite the fact supported response I wrote here demonstrating nothing but sheer mockery by Phillip

Let me quote him from his original post: “we have set up an anonymous poll that will hopefully encourage participation with zero risk to reputation

I guess all of us are literate enough to understand the meaning of these two terms highlighted above.

And I’m not even taking into account the way Phil presented XPand’s results in mockery.

As for risk to reputation, I guess the few people who posted after me, including you Alastair, are saying that 70% is nothing special, and that is indeed a defamation for xpand stating his hearing skills aren’t up to par, especially considering that hearing is what is the most important skill of a mastering engineer

So indeed risking xpand’s reputation by whatever Matt thinks is “tongue in cheek”

Literally asking you to stop supporting this mess just because you’re even with Matt, matt’s a cool person, no issues with him, I respect him but that does not mean that I’m gonna blindly follow his assistant despite his shady practices and obviously disrespectful way of talking

Now answer me guys, all here, actually the op, did defame X Pand here, and his reputation, for sure, is at risk with the posted result

Ofcourse nothing spectacular should happen to him especially with this dead thread but still it is a negligence to the original commitment to protect the reputation and anonymity at all costs, the op did break it, and despite XPand answering Matt’s “cut some slack”, Matt completely ignored Xpand’s response and got back to the other posters.

I’m waiting for a justification, there is nothing you can justify, it is wrong and you should apologise.

You all are now blaming xpand and me, completely ignoring the mockery of Phillip and breach of agreement, and are even supporting him with this derogatory behaviour, great guys

Fairness 100
Wow. I should apologise for reading Phillip's post differently than you? That is bonkers. And defamation? You clearly do not understand what the word means. And who is blaming X-Pand for anything?

There was no problem until you twisted Phillip's words. X-Pand gave no indication he had a problem with the response. Your posts are poisoning this thread and you are infecting others with your insecurity and paranoia. (Beware people, that stuff is toxic and contagious). I think you are emotionally unstable and your responses are irrational. IMO, the only person damaging any reputation here is you damaging your own.

I ignored this thread for a long while due to the needless bickering about things that are not even sound. I looked in again yesterday and saw the post about null testing. That was technically incorrect (and a misunderstanding that pops up often in these threads) so I thought I would address it. Then I saw your response to Phillip's post and addressed that too. I should have realised that it was pointless to talk any sense into you. Your original response was a clear warning. I'll put you on ignore now.

Alistair
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #214
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGray View Post
Lastly, for those giving Phillip a hard time about him not releasing the results, go back to his OP and re-read it again, he was very clear from the start how he wanted to conduct his experiment. There was never ever any promise of releasing individual results or revealing the identity of each test file. This way it will always have relevance to why the purpose of this whole experiment.
For what it's worth, I for one am glad that Phillip didn't reveal which files are which. It gave me a chance to do the poll myself. And I have no problem with anyone revealing how bad or well I did on the test. Partly because I am quite confident about my listening skills, but mostly because the test really doesn't say anything about how good one is at their job as a sound engineer. It is just an interesting experiment.

Thanks for all the effort you guys put into this!

Alistair
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #215
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
And who is blaming X-Pand for anything?

There was no problem until you twisted Phillip's words. X-Pand gave no indication he had a problem with the response.

Alistair
You're right, at first I didn't read Philip's quote over me as "bad" or anything. But still I didn't understood the "Nothing special". What surely displeased me was that he delibarately indicated "almost" all of my personnal result, giving me a "hint". Which is quite rude when you've been asked the results for more than 2 month in a row, and by almost everybody in this thread. (and privately by me, not to reveal the correct answers in the thread).
But STILL, as I am not a "raging" personn, I didn't wanted to make a mess and simply said "I'm here", waiting to see if he would finally post the results, as he already kind of "exposed" mine.
But then Darkalex, and another member (and others members by now), opened my eyes to the way he WROTE his post.

"Nooo....please don't leave the thread 🙏 I really love what you bring to the table

Will you pretty please stay if I give you another hint? You picked 7 of one and 4 of the other. Nothing special"

This is clearly mockery. And if it wasn't, he would have SAID SOMETHING BY NOW.

But nothing. So I think now we can all understand that he deliberately made fun out of me, and of my "results". The way Matt avoided to answer my last posts tells enough aswell imo.

As far as my "reputation" is concerned, I have absolutely no problem with this. It is an open forum, that I am participating in for many years now, and I have nothing to hide. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but still we all need some results to acknowledge it.
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #216
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Mmm...well then, bye bye Mastering forum ?
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #217
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Pand Sound Mastering View Post
As far as my "reputation" is concerned, I have absolutely no problem with this. It is an open forum, that I am participating in for many years now, and I have nothing to hide. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but still we all need some results to acknowledge it.
Hi Adrien,

Thanks for your response. I won't respond to the part about Phillip's post. I have already given my interpretation of his words and I stand by it.

As for the above, I see this experiment as a way to determine whether there is an obvious and clear preference for the sonics of one or the other equalisation tool. I did not see it as a way for people to test their own hearing acuity. (There are many other ways to do that and anyone can test themselves with the provided files by doing an ABX test. There is no need for confirmation from anyone else).

Phillip has already indicated that no one could identify either equaliser 100% of the time. This tells me that neither of the tools is inherently better or preferable to the other. Different? Sure. But inherently better? Not likely.

I understand that people would like to know how well they did in the test, that is only human, but to me, the statistical results for the whole group is much more useful.

Invariably, when answers are revealed, even in private, they leak out. Either intentionally or unintentionally due to comments in the thread. This happens every single time this kind of test is done. And as soon as there are any hints or indication of which file is which, the experiment is finished and no longer reliable or valid.

I'm also curious whether I "did well" in the test but I like that this test remains blinded so that other people can participate if they so wish. If that means I don't get to know how well I did, that is fine by me. It is even preferable. There are not that many tests around that stay blinded long enough for enough people to participate.

Considering the amount of effort it takes to set up a test like this, I think we should all be thankful to Matt and Phillip for doing the hard work and if they decide to keep it going by not revealing the answers, I fully support that decision.

Alistair
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #218
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Hey Alistair,

Sorry but what you say here doesn't work, although it seems you are saying so in order to stay "positive" with the thread, which is honorable I understand that, but it doesn't work.
When you say :

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Invariably, when answers are revealed, even in private, they leak out. Either intentionally or unintentionally due to comments in the thread. This happens every single time this kind of test is done. And as soon as there are any hints or indication of which file is which, the experiment is finished and no longer reliable or valid.
I would agree with this, but so why exposing my results in front of everyone else then ??
And here you will answer : "well, he didn't CLEARLY revealed your results, so the real answers still aren't spoiled".
OK, so why not at least telling me this by private message, as an answer to me ?
"you took 7 of one, 4 of the other". That way I could NOT have spoiled anything here. Why not saying so in private, when I was asking nicely, but still saying this publicly ??

Sorry Alistair, but there's clearly something wrong here. It's undeniable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Considering the amount of effort it takes to set up a test like this, I think we should all be thankful to Matt and Phillip for doing the hard work and if they decide to keep it going by not revealing the answers, I fully support that decision.

Alistair
I was thankfull, at the very beginning, and you can find my post saying so.
But after all what happened how could I still be thankfull ? Too late for that.
As almost every others here stated, it's been month now and the point as been made, especially with a SINGLE, to NONE new entry in the pool for who knows how long.
Old 8th November 2020
  #219
Lives for gear
 
John Moran's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The most telling result from this entire thread is a couple of people completely showing their ass here. One has been permanently relegated to the bozo bin (useless signal to noise ratio with that guy) and the other is on the cusp of the same. This is the first time I've ever done this on GS. Thankfully it's none of the longstanding members here.
Old 8th November 2020 | Show parent
  #220
Here for the gear
 
Phillip Dempster's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
For the record, in science, anything below 95% confidence is considered chance because with enough participants in a test, there will always be some chance results that are way above 50% even if the files are identical.

So yes, scientifically, 70% is nothing special and can not be separated from pure guessing. (I'm not saying anyone was just guessing but it is accurate to say that 70% is nothing special).

Specific to what Phillip wrote: I read his comment as meaning that 70% was nothing special in the responses he got. Meaning that others also got 70% of the results right.

Alistair
Yeah, that is all I meant by nothing special. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
Personally I can use the 462 without even looking at it or a screen. That’s what I love about using the real Sontec. It’s like playing an instrument for me. I don’t even have to think about it.
Totally agree. Tactility/ergonomics is a huge advantage of outboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
For what it's worth, I for one am glad that Phillip didn't reveal which files are which. It gave me a chance to do the poll myself. And I have no problem with anyone revealing how bad or well I did on the test. Partly because I am quite confident about my listening skills, but mostly because the test really doesn't say anything about how good one is at their job as a sound engineer. It is just an interesting experiment.

Thanks for all the effort you guys put into this!

Alistair
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Hi Adrien,

Thanks for your response. I won't respond to the part about Phillip's post. I have already given my interpretation of his words and I stand by it.

As for the above, I see this experiment as a way to determine whether there is an obvious and clear preference for the sonics of one or the other equalisation tool. I did not see it as a way for people to test their own hearing acuity. (There are many other ways to do that and anyone can test themselves with the provided files by doing an ABX test. There is no need for confirmation from anyone else).

Phillip has already indicated that no one could identify either equaliser 100% of the time. This tells me that neither of the tools is inherently better or preferable to the other. Different? Sure. But inherently better? Not likely.

I understand that people would like to know how well they did in the test, that is only human, but to me, the statistical results for the whole group is much more useful.

Invariably, when answers are revealed, even in private, they leak out. Either intentionally or unintentionally due to comments in the thread. This happens every single time this kind of test is done. And as soon as there are any hints or indication of which file is which, the experiment is finished and no longer reliable or valid.

I'm also curious whether I "did well" in the test but I like that this test remains blinded so that other people can participate if they so wish. If that means I don't get to know how well I did, that is fine by me. It is even preferable. There are not that many tests around that stay blinded long enough for enough people to participate.

Considering the amount of effort it takes to set up a test like this, I think we should all be thankful to Matt and Phillip for doing the hard work and if they decide to keep it going by not revealing the answers, I fully support that decision.

Alistair
You're welcome!

Thanks heaps for saying this, it's nice to know that you understand what I was trying to do. I realise that most people don't feel the same way about it... but I do understand the reasons why they don't.

I just wanted to make something that was (at least a little bit) statistically meaningful, because I hadn't really seen that done before.

I don't think I'll ever do anything like this again. But since I went to the effort already, I'll try to stay true to the original intention for as long as I can withstand the pressure


@X-Pand

I had no intention to mock or defame you. I have no bad feelings towards you. I honestly do like what you bring to the table. You remind me of a good friend of mine. I love your bold bravado, always super confident in your opinion... but also always ready to accept that you were wrong in a graceful manner and with good humour. I also enjoyed your posts demanding answers and threatening to leave the thread, I think it was all said in good fun and not too serious but also I know that you are really passionate about this topic and I love that.

That was my impression of you, from our exchanges earlier in the thread, and is why I felt comfortable to write something a bit cheeky and stir you up a bit. In Australia it's called 'taking the piss' and it's done affectionately. I think you interpreted it in the right tone when you first read it. But if you are unhappy with anything I wrote, I apologise, and if there is anything you would like me to remove I will edit it for you no worries
Old 9th November 2020 | Show parent
  #221
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Ok so, as we are on the "cooling" side, what has been writen has been writen, you don't have to delete it, and this wouldn't change anything anyway.
Now, and I say this without anger, because you present things in a positive manner which is nice, but sorry Philip I don't bite.
To what you are saying here now, I don't bite. To much contradictions with what you said and your "attitude" before that. You are answering now but not to me directly, and this although I called upon you many times. You didn't bothered to answer me before, that's the truth.

Undertow said :

"Specific to what Phillip wrote: I read his comment as meaning that 70% was nothing special in the responses he got. Meaning that others also got 70% of the results right."

And to that you answer :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Dempster View Post
Yeah, that is all I meant by nothing special. Thanks
Why didn't you answer me directly then ? In order to avoid any confusion ?
If you did maybe you would have had less "pressure" as you say, don't you think ? Sorry but, it's too much contradictions again...

Jumping on that number of 70%, then I don't know how you do your math to obtain less then 30% likelyhood that the difference are audible, if the "nothing special" and common result is 70% accuracy towards the Sontec. And some have even more as you previously said. But you have your way of doing this, so that is up to you. I don't even want to go into this debate anyway.

And lastly, 70% correct answers on a single run (I did listen to the mix files two times each and chose my answers straight away, that is I believe the best way not to fool yourself, as your ears don't have the time to adapt) and in less then 10 minutes,
it clearly shows that the difference is actually Largely audible. Even more if the majority of the listeners here matched that score. The famous "nothing special" score, lol.
So again, no hard feeling and I wish you the best with all this, but you sound a bit like 70% honest to me here.

Wishing everyone a good start of the week

Last edited by X-Pand Sound Mastering; 9th November 2020 at 03:01 PM..
Old 2nd December 2020 | Show parent
  #222
Gear Addict
 
Robb Robinson's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I'll take "$hit $how" for $1000, Alex...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben F View Post
It’s good that you did this test, although I think it could have been executed in a much better way.

Personally I can use the 462 without even looking at it or a screen. That’s what I love about using the real Sontec. It’s like playing an instrument for me. I don’t even have to think about it.

If I want super clean then I reach for a plug-in.
+1

When I do my analog pass nothing beats the ear speed of a Sontec or Goly PG or similar. Eyes shut and confidence high.

Then once printed and I'm ready to hunt down any marginal improvements in twice the time and half the conviction, I turn to a plugin.
Old 2nd December 2020
  #223
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I took AMEK 200 for ...... 199.
Old 5th December 2020 | Show parent
  #224
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Ennio Morricone movie theme far away in the background, the sound of the wind, a bale of straw rooling...
Old 6th December 2020 | Show parent
  #225
Lives for gear
 
kludgeaudio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Pand Sound Mastering View Post
Ennio Morricone movie theme far away in the background, the sound of the wind, a bale of straw rooling...
Wrong theme song.....

Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of Sontec...
--scott
Old 6th December 2020 | Show parent
  #226
Lives for gear
 
X-Pand Sound Mastering's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years


Quote:
Originally Posted by kludgeaudio View Post
Wrong theme song.....

Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of Sontec...
--scott
Old 4 weeks ago
  #227
Lives for gear
 
shelterr's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It’s been WEEKS with no update to this thread. I’m fully expecting Philip to swoop in like Santa Claus and fill our stockings with results! 🤣🤣🤣
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #228
jsc
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanTan View Post
Here are the third type of Opamps I've got as spares:
Was your equalizer *shipped* with those green OP-AMPs with the through hole components?! Those are "HS-6200" OP-AMPs, they were made up for one particular customer as a custom experiment.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #229
Lives for gear
 
TanTan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc View Post
Was your equalizer *shipped* with those green OP-AMPs with the through hole components?! Those are "HS-6200" OP-AMPs, they were made up for one particular customer as a custom experiment.
I've got the green Op amps from ITI as a replacement for a broken HS6000 I had but it's distorting like crazy so I would never use them for mastering..

Can you tell me more about the particular customer they were made for and what\why was the experiment ?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #230
jsc
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanTan View Post
I've got the green Op amps from ITI as a replacement for a broken HS6000 I had but it's distorting like crazy so I would never use them for mastering..

Can you tell me more about the particular customer they were made for and what\why was the experiment ?
We had a customer who was interested in listening to a through-hole version of the HS-6000. The original HS-6000 circuit was of course through-hole, but it was integrated into either the panel boards (MEP-250EX) or the motherboard (mastering EQs) rather than being a standalone module.

Burgess is as confused as I am as to how you ended up with green ones, I'm guessing that someone, prior to the coronavirus shutdown, was told "box up a HS-6000" and somehow thought one of the "HS-6200" experimental OP-AMPs was OK to go.

Anyway, we've got them on hand, I'll PM you about it.
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 476 views: 110676
Avatar for csj
csj 31st January 2016
replies: 0 views: 1549
Avatar for turnstile
turnstile 23rd April 2011
replies: 1088 views: 223987
Avatar for thermos
thermos 3 hours ago
replies: 50 views: 30850
Avatar for Deleted d78e603
Deleted d78e603 9th July 2017
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump