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Rob Schnapf Condenser Microphones
Old 23rd May 2012
  #1021
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Stagehand2000's Avatar
 

Hello Rob, thanks for all the work on Elliott's albums, haven't got tired of listening to them yet. First encounter was XO on cassette as a kid.

I would like to ask a question that has been on my mind for some time. Was there ever a version of See You In Heaven with vocals if so do any exist? By reading this thread about the recording methods it would be probable...

The track is amazing even without vocals. Is it Elliott on bass and drums too?
Old 23rd May 2012
  #1022
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rob S's Avatar
I love the BX20
Old 23rd May 2012
  #1023
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rob S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagehand2000 View Post

Was there ever a version of See You In Heaven with vocals if so do any exist? By reading this thread about the recording methods it would be probable...

The track is amazing even without vocals. Is it Elliott on bass and drums too?
I dont think there is a vocal.
We would have definitely used it if it was there.
Old 26th June 2012
  #1024
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rob S's Avatar
Been doing lots of mixing of other peoples projects.
Couple of observations.
Seems that we sometimes adhere to concept or aesthetic
At the expense of reality.
Dont use all in one MS mic as overheads.
Strikes me as the wrong application for obviose reasons.
Causies phase issues with kick and snare and imaging problems
Cardiod X/Y or two condensers left right is far better.
And phase accurate.
If you are recording drums in a less then stellar
Space, dont use figure eight (coles royers)as overheads.
Without trying to state the obvious, the figure eight ends up
Grabbing lots of the less then stellar space and
It is now a component of your overheads.
These are really important to your drum sound.
Directional overheads equal less bull****......
thats my opinion.
Old 26th June 2012
  #1025
Your opinion is perfectly timed, thanks!

I am in the early stages of planning the recording of a piano trio (piano, bass, drums) in a low-ceiling club where the group is placing themselves in the center of the floor. Piano lid will be off, and everyone will be in a tight cluster. Reducing bleed will be a challenge in many ways - everything into the bass mic (I'll have to supplement with DI) and drums into piano mic. I was planning on using a Royer SF24 over the piano, horizontally and fairly low, with its butt (deep null) towards the drums and maybe a Royer SF12 as the drum overhead, with its butt facing the piano to gain some isolation. You have made me re-think the whole plan, though. I think I'll use directional mics for overheads - and possibly even for piano.
These are very good musicians, and I want to be sure to get the best sound I can, but have limited soundcheck time. Here is the set up from last year (different drummer):
[IMG][/IMG]
Old 26th June 2012
  #1026
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HermanV's Avatar
 

Thanks for the advice. Makes perfect sense. I recorded a punk-ish band in a rehearsal space and the overheads was the hardest thing to record. Glyn Johns method worked out best for the band and the mics I had. I am not going to waste time getting fancy with mics in crap rooms anymore.
Old 27th June 2012
  #1027
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob S View Post
Been doing lots of mixing of other peoples projects.
Couple of observations.
Seems that we sometimes adhere to concept or aesthetic
At the expense of reality.
Dont use all in one MS mic as overheads.
Strikes me as the wrong application for obviose reasons.
Causies phase issues with kick and snare and imaging problems
Cardiod X/Y or two condensers left right is far better.
And phase accurate.
If you are recording drums in a less then stellar
Space, dont use figure eight (coles royers)as overheads.
Without trying to state the obvious, the figure eight ends up
Grabbing lots of the less then stellar space and
It is now a component of your overheads.
These are really important to your drum sound.
Directional overheads equal less bull****......
thats my opinion.
Good stuff. I'm in the same boat as you right now Rob. Mixing other people projects. I'll add a couple of notes myself if you don't mind.

The drums I've got on the current project are SUPERB. I suspect they were tracked at a great studio, but I don't know. The REST of the instruments however are murky, muddy crap.

Here's my tracking notes.

-Don't track mono sources to stereo tracks unless it's stereo. I know, simple, but come on guys.
-Don't print mono verb on lead instruments/vox - unless you REALLY have a good reason too, and maybe are mixing it yourself. This handcuffs the mix engineer with the most important element of the mix. If you don't KNOW how much verb is the right amount - it's TOO MUCH.
-Same with other FX. Unless it's part of the sound and you are experienced and want to commit, and are the mix engineer and know what you're doing - don't do it - even if it's chic to do so. If you REALLY want to, and there's the least bit of doubt, then print an FX track separate. If you want the instrument in STEREO in the mix plane, then print STEREO FX. If you can't and want the instrument / vox stereo, then don't print FX or print separate.
-If you're looking for a nice modern mix, please don't roll of the HF on EVERYTHING just because someone on the internet said HF was bad. Of course if you want it to sound like 1940's, then by all means, go for it. (on this project it sounds like all E Gtrs had a 12dB per octave LPF @ 800hz. No joke.
-Don't give your mix engineer guitar mics that are 20-25' off the amp in a reflective room with NO OTHER OPTIONS.
-Don't record every section of the song on a different set of tracks with 3 mics - yeilding 90+ guitar tracks to be sorted out at mix time when it could have been recorded on ONE mono track - all the way thru. Yeah, unraveling that ball o **** right now....
-Track a project with a pro like Rob that's been doing it awhile and make mental notes for doing it yourself next time if you need to. (My guess is you'd probably never want to again.)
-Sort things out before dumping them in your mix engineers lap and expecting him to have a vision for how and why you did things.

The art of tracking seems to be headed downhill - fast. Listen to classic tracks - "the band", and see how they had guitar / bass / lead vox on one track (danko), and drums / vox (helm) on another, and only two other tracks - one for keys, and another for piano I think. 4 Track. And it sound mixed and amazing. Try that as an experiment sometime.....lol

OK,,,,,now that that's off my chest...


back to mixing....Sorry for butting in Rob, I couldn't help myself.....
Old 27th June 2012
  #1028
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rob S's Avatar
Yes Bill
Old 27th June 2012
  #1029
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Feckin hell Bill, that sounds depressing. A 'mono stuff on stereo tracks' gig. Oh my.....Good luck.
Old 27th June 2012
  #1030
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drBill's Avatar
I think I was having a low blood sugar or something....

There are over 80 guitar tracks though.......
Old 27th June 2012
  #1031
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I think I was having a low blood sugar or something....

There are over 80 guitar tracks though.......


A nice cup of green tea and a little sly go at the 'muting dance' then....?
Old 27th June 2012
  #1032
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rob S's Avatar
Mute all of them except for the 57's.
Old 27th June 2012
  #1033
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skybluerental's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Good stuff. I'm in the same boat as you right now Rob. Mixing other people projects. I'll add a couple of notes myself if you don't mind.

The drums I've got on the current project are SUPERB. I suspect they were tracked at a great studio, but I don't know. The REST of the instruments however are murky, muddy crap.

Here's my tracking notes.

-Don't track mono sources to stereo tracks unless it's stereo. I know, simple, but come on guys.
-Don't print mono verb on lead instruments/vox - unless you REALLY have a good reason too, and maybe are mixing it yourself. This handcuffs the mix engineer with the most important element of the mix. If you don't KNOW how much verb is the right amount - it's TOO MUCH.
-Same with other FX. Unless it's part of the sound and you are experienced and want to commit, and are the mix engineer and know what you're doing - don't do it - even if it's chic to do so. If you REALLY want to, and there's the least bit of doubt, then print an FX track separate. If you want the instrument in STEREO in the mix plane, then print STEREO FX. If you can't and want the instrument / vox stereo, then don't print FX or print separate.
-If you're looking for a nice modern mix, please don't roll of the HF on EVERYTHING just because someone on the internet said HF was bad. Of course if you want it to sound like 1940's, then by all means, go for it. (on this project it sounds like all E Gtrs had a 12dB per octave LPF @ 800hz. No joke.
-Don't give your mix engineer guitar mics that are 20-25' off the amp in a reflective room with NO OTHER OPTIONS.
-Don't record every section of the song on a different set of tracks with 3 mics - yeilding 90+ guitar tracks to be sorted out at mix time when it could have been recorded on ONE mono track - all the way thru. Yeah, unraveling that ball o **** right now....
-Track a project with a pro like Rob that's been doing it awhile and make mental notes for doing it yourself next time if you need to. (My guess is you'd probably never want to again.)
-Sort things out before dumping them in your mix engineers lap and expecting him to have a vision for how and why you did things.

The art of tracking seems to be headed downhill - fast. Listen to classic tracks - "the band", and see how they had guitar / bass / lead vox on one track (danko), and drums / vox (helm) on another, and only two other tracks - one for keys, and another for piano I think. 4 Track. And it sound mixed and amazing. Try that as an experiment sometime.....lol

OK,,,,,now that that's off my chest...


back to mixing....Sorry for butting in Rob, I couldn't help myself.....
AMEN BILL!

could not have said it better myself.

this should be required reading for inexperienced recordists trying to record themselves.
Old 27th June 2012
  #1034
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob S View Post
Mute all of them except for the 57's.
Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking - only listening to something else when the sonics demand it - which they may never do. Otherwise I'll be printing submixes for a day.....


THEN, I'll drag em all up to one or 2 mono tracks. heh
Old 27th June 2012
  #1035
mixmixmix
Guest
Dr Bill - 80 gtr tracks -I feel for you... Awesome post. Cheers
Old 27th June 2012
  #1036
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chet.d View Post
I

It's out there that Hudson / Plush & Mike had it comparing very well to a Flea 49. It is more 49 than 47 admittedly via Oliver.
I really didn't find that to be the case. I liked the 17R okay but didn't feel it had the"size" of the Flea 49, nor was the high end of the same quality--more modern sounding, more "pre-eq'ed" to the track. The difference in the headbaskets alone accounts for a difference.

Rob's got that mic now and I'm curious to hear his take. Blackspade indicated that the one they sent might have needed to burn in more, so I guess I got it all warmed up for Rob!

-R
Old 27th June 2012
  #1037
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Ha! That's exactly what I was thinking - only listening to something else when the sonics demand it - which they may never do. Otherwise I'll be printing submixes for a day.....


THEN, I'll drag em all up to one or 2 mono tracks. heh
Yeah, I don't get why people create stereo tracks for mono signals. I get that from singers all the time. First thing I do is use the PT function to copy as two mono tracks, then delete the original stereo and one of the monos. Of course, the drag is if you need to go through and determine which tracks are actually stereo and which aren't.

-R
Old 27th June 2012
  #1038
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Of course, the drag is if you need to go through and determine which tracks are actually stereo and which aren't.

-R

And the PITA factor increases even more-so if there are a ton of playlists to sort thru....




But hey, back to Rob S! heh Rob, I've actually never seen a m/s overhead. I'd agree with you about it being an intrinsic wrong choice for drum OH's. Is there a situation that you like it for? Just curious.

bp
Old 28th June 2012
  #1039
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rob S's Avatar
I like M/S for rooms.
Alot times i take a stereo room and make a matrix out of it.
For the obviouse reasons it lets you pull back the middle
Image a little bit with space to the left and right.
And with kick sn up the middle, it Helps create some room in there,
instead of the dog pile up the center.

Bill, i like that you aired it all out.
The multiple tracks and lack of committing is both a time killer and a buzz kill.
Why do you need a condenser a ribbon and a dynamic on every gtr?
If you do, make the blend how you want it buss it together and record it that way.
One track.
Never have to think about it again.
Next.
Old 28th June 2012
  #1040
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rob S's Avatar
The M/S OH's seems to be somewhat fashionable in my neck of the woods.
And without trying to be a know it all, im trying to convince people its a bad idea.
Old 28th June 2012
  #1041
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob S View Post
Why do you need a condenser a ribbon and a dynamic on every gtr?
If you do, make the blend how you want it buss it together and record it that way.
One track.
Never have to think about it again.
Next.
Rob - I think a lot of the reason is because most guys don't have consoles anymore. Still, they could comp it together inside their DAW and do it that way, but.... that would require time and effort. heh

As for commitment, I'm ALL FOR committing. As long as you know what you're doing and not committing a pile of dog poop for the mix engineer. If that's the case, I'd rather have an easy way out and try to avoid the problem - ie: NON-committal. My main issue with this record is almost everything (solo main instruments are the worst problem for me with this) were cut mono on stereo tracks with a mono murky reverb, and sometimes also with mono murky delay - so I can't use any delay or verb to widen them up in the mix without completely washing them out. Frustrating.......

If-n ya got any ideas for me, I'm a-listnen...... I already exhausted my bag-o-tricks....
Old 28th June 2012
  #1042
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rob S's Avatar
Damn bill, sounds like a bummer.
Old 28th June 2012
  #1043
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

You will have tried this already, but just in case....shave off the undesirable space as much as possible with an enveloper (or a few in series, taking a little each)?
Old 28th June 2012
  #1044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob S View Post
Damn bill, sounds like a bummer.
It sure does .. Not sure what methods you've tried already Bill, but further to what Karloff says above, envelope shaping. Of any kind.

Transient Designer, Gates or Expansion can be great, even on sustained sounds. Even 2 of the stock Avid expander (PT8) plugins in series, both just tickling a few db of ambience/spill out of the source tracks. It can be a painstaking part of mix pre-production, but it gets your source tracks into a mixable state. Sometimes "Buffing" them with hardware does the trick as well. Or embrace the "intentions" of the source recordings (whether intentional or not ).

Anyhoo, best of luck with it .. Back to the program ..

Cheers. RAy
Old 28th June 2012
  #1045
I'm having amazing results with Unveil, a de-reverberator recently released by Zynaptiq
Old 28th June 2012
  #1046
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Hmmm....thanks for the tips guys. I'll check em out.

bp
Old 28th June 2012
  #1047
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rob S's Avatar
Still sounds like a bummer to me
Old 28th June 2012
  #1048
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob S View Post
Still sounds like a bummer to me


Sometimes ya just gotta roll with the punches rob. That's what I'm going to do on this one. It will not be my favorite album. Not even in the top 100, but it will get finished, and the client will get more than they deserve. heh And I will get to move on.
Old 28th June 2012
  #1049
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rob S's Avatar
As long as they are happy
Its all good.
Fast courteous reliable service.
I always try to hit at least two of those benchmarks....
Old 29th June 2012
  #1050
Hey rob I would love to hear how you encode your two room mics for ms. Are they set up as an ms pair?
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