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Making career plans and decisions Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 10th September 2011
  #1
Making career plans and decisions

Hi,

Basically I just finished my degree in music at a sort of well known popular music institute and wasn't really satisfied with the course, and they basically sell dreams to kids hahaha. On the otherhand it gave me an idea of what i'm getting myself as i hadn't a clue before.

So it turns I'm far more skilled and interested in recording, audio, broadcasting and all manners of dealing with audio. It comes more naturally to me.

So there's a couple options and some I've probably missed. The key thing being I want to be in London if that's a god idea?

To be able to stay in London I either need a job (something related to music, theatre anythin audi really) or do another course but in sound. And yes i would love to get an intern in a studio but we all know it isn't easy and being in london will just increase my chances(right?)

I know it's a hard business but I'm sticking with it, I don't want people telling me there's no jobs I'll regret if I don't try.

Any advice,
Old 10th September 2011
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Hi,

Basically I just finished my degree in music at a sort of well known popular music institute and wasn't really satisfied with the course, and they basically sell dreams to kids hahaha. On the otherhand it gave me an idea of what i'm getting myself as i hadn't a clue before.

So it turns I'm far more skilled and interested in recording, audio, broadcasting and all manners of dealing with audio. It comes more naturally to me.

So there's a couple options and some I've probably missed. The key thing being I want to be in London if that's a god idea?

To be able to stay in London I either need a job (something related to music, theatre anythin audi really) or do another course but in sound. And yes i would love to get an intern in a studio but we all know it isn't easy and being in london will just increase my chances(right?)

I know it's a hard business but I'm sticking with it, I don't want people telling me there's no jobs I'll regret if I don't try.

Any advice,
Realistically, the ONLY industry is in London...a little in Liverpool, some smaller places elsewhere..but the labels are in London, therefore that's where the studios are, for music recording at least (obviously there's plenty of audio work elsewhere).

If you can't be in London full time, find a friend you can crash with when you need to be there, and get emailing, phoning etc....making contacts anyway you can!
Old 10th September 2011
  #3
plan to be broke. very broke.
Old 10th September 2011
  #4
Lives for gear
 

get a job any job
learn more while making contacts
practice on your own to solidify your learning
keep contacting everyone who could use your skills andor help you learn more - not just studios, media, churches, venues with bands, etc.
keep that job!
you need to eat until you are ready and able to get a real full time job in the area of audio/music that you want to do
Old 11th September 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
Birmingham

\m/
Old 11th September 2011
  #6
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
Birmingham

\m/
you ever been there?heh
Old 11th September 2011
  #7
Cool seems like I'm not making an ilogical step here a lot of people don't understand taking risks and sacrifice to do what makes you happy.

So anyone speaking from experience?

I don't know anyone who's moved to London for a music career most people i know poo poo it. They say something like your just another guy in 100 of thousands of people and I should go some where with more space for new careers and businesses.

I've got a mate in London I've just started mixing an album we've been working on that I'm gonna get a place with next year after I do some traveling.

When I get there i'm thinking I'm gonna walk in to as many studios as possible and try and get chatty with any I meet. Good idea? I like hands on person to person approach rather than phone calls and emails.
Old 11th September 2011
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
you ever been there?heh
I have a few friends from brum who are musicians and they didn't stay there for uni. Bristol is the prs's 'music capital' but I don't buy it there's some 'big' names (well they used to be) around there but you never hear from them and there's probably 2 studios worth mentioning that are miles from the centre. BBC there don't have interns/ apprentices.
Old 11th September 2011
  #9
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
I don't want people telling me there's no jobs I'll regret if I don't try.

Any advice,

OK. We won't bother to tell you what you don't want to know. You've obviously got to try.

Here's the advice.....

Plan on making it big or dying trying. Live a long wealthy life at the top or die young. If you have the option to do something else, or have a backup plan, you will 100% need it. Plan on being homeless or mixing the next big thing. No other options. Or you WILL take them. That is the pathway you must take.




BTW, there are no jobs. At least not in the traditional sense. Get that out of your mind early, think outside the box and maybe you'll be the 1 in 10,000 that go big. I mean, it has to be SOMEONE right? Might as well be you - all you have to do is outlast the other 9,999 and be more talented. Actually, the PLAN is pretty simple. Executing it successfully is the trick. Best of luck.
Old 11th September 2011
  #10
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
I have a few friends from brum who are musicians and they didn't stay there for uni. Bristol is the prs's 'music capital' but I don't buy it there's some 'big' names (well they used to be) around there but you never hear from them and there's probably 2 studios worth mentioning that are miles from the centre. BBC there don't have interns/ apprentices.
I work Bristol and Oxford. Both excellent music places. Like Brighton too (LOVE Brighton Electric).
Old 11th September 2011
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
OK. We won't bother to tell you what you don't want to know. You've obviously got to try.

Here's the advice.....

.
Oh good you sound like the institute I went to heh and I suppose if I pay you loads of money your tell trade secrets and hook me up with industry pros lol.

I not being extreme here I just wanna give this a serious go if all fails I'll find something and do that instead but I don't give up easy and I'll find a way to make it work ah it sounds like a failing marriage. I think if I break even I'll be happy but trying to just make a living seems a bit daunting. I don't want to be a famous big time record producer( in New Yorker accent) If I did mummy and daddy would pay for SAE and Brit school make a catastrophically bad production deal to a sweet talker and in later years I'd probably asfixiate myself but that's another life.
Old 11th September 2011
  #12
Narcoman how come you don't do London or do you? Bristol ok many small studio's I did a few bits of experience then released there's no future if you trying to get into the business.
Old 11th September 2011
  #13
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
I just wanna give this a serious go if all fails I'll find something and do that instead
I don't mean to be snyde, but that's not success talking. That's failure. None of the 9,999 give up easy, but they did give up. It's that ONE who won't that's sitting in the big chair pushing faders. Just sayin....

There are more people wanting in, and less work than ever. Most of the work is by contract or hourly freelance. There are very, very, very few opportunities that one would call a "job". Even 25 years ago, there were very few "jobs" where you drew a paycheck. Only those who will not accept failure in any way, shape or form who are willing to sacrifice anything and everything will get in. No matter how much we wish things were different, that's just the way it is. So if you're looking for a job, maybe you should save yourself the heartache and look in a field that's expanding instead of contracting. IT, health care, insurance, day trader.
Old 11th September 2011
  #14
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
you ever been there?heh
yeah in the 80s
there is like a million people there
lots of bands. maybe it's changed
Old 11th September 2011
  #15
Drbill I completely agree by job I meant something paid as apposed to an internship etc I wasn't very specific. I wondered if someone would comment on that dentence. I felt like If i said I'll do whatever it takes and it make happen in response to the comment by narcomen I would have came across as having a big ego rather than big plans of ambitions or whatever. I'm headstrong but I don't want people to think
I have a big ego I always find people with big ego's to be all fart no poo all nipple no boob. Not a good personality trait in this buisiness.
Old 11th September 2011
  #16
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

The only advice I can offer is to be open to everything in life. What I didn't realize at your age was that life is big and there are WAY more possible paths and way more dreams in my soul than I could begin to understand.

So set a clear direction (yours is vague), and proceed bravely (you're too tentative and unsure). The only way to know if a path is correct is to forge it. Failure is not to be avoided, it is to be embraced. Failure is the only way to learn. Failure is essential to success.

As you move forward, keep one eye on the prize and the other on everything else, because opportunities have a way of approaching us obliquely and donning a clever disguise. Life has a funny way of guiding and steering us in directions we didn't think to go, because it sees the big picture and we see only what's in front of us... and sometimes we even miss that because we're so focused on the fantasy in our mind rather than the reality at our feet.

Get in the habit of saying yes to what's brought to you; yes creates connections, yes expands possibility. If something even remotely smells like a partial step in a direction that is possibly somewhat on course that may be good for you, say yes. Get to know as many people as possible, do as many favors as possible, keep a log of everyone you meet with enough info to remind you who they are 12 years after the fact.

The more uncertain you are about a choice, the more likely it is that you need to push into it. Do not bother trying to predict where you're going, just trust that the as long as you keep pushing forward, you will get somewhere, and it'll probably exceed your expectations by a wide margin.

Observe, choose, act, observe, adjust, repeat.

Nothing could be simpler... or more difficult.


Gregory Scott - ubk
Old 11th September 2011
  #17
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AnthonyRochester's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Get in the habit of saying yes to what's brought to you; yes creates connections, yes expands possibility. If something even remotely smells like a partial step in a direction that is possibly somewhat on course that may be good for you, say yes. Get to know as many people as possible, do as many favors as possible, keep a log of everyone you meet with enough info to remind you who they are 12 years after the fact.
I like this
Old 11th September 2011
  #18
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Narcoman how come you don't do London or do you? Bristol ok many small studio's I did a few bits of experience then released there's no future if you trying to get into the business.
London? I work in London all the time at Abbey Road. But I don't focus on it for band work. Waste of time. There are no meaningful scenes in London so it doesn't feed itself like Bristol, Brighton and Oxford do. Mainly, though, it's just that those are the towns I am currently working with bands on dev deals with labels (well - not dev deals in the old sense - they're contracted but need lots of pre production time).
Old 11th September 2011
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Cool seems like I'm not making an ilogical step here a lot of people don't understand taking risks and sacrifice to do what makes you happy.

So anyone speaking from experience?
well....yes! I had the advantage of living a commutable distance from London..in fact, I was a runner at Abbey Road myself, whilst still living with my parents (though I got to know the lounge above studio 1 far too well during my 6 month contract!). So I was lucky in that I never had to move to get on the scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
I don't know anyone who's moved to London for a music career most people i know poo poo it. They say something like your just another guy in 100 of thousands of people and I should go some where with more space for new careers and businesses.
That's probably because they don't know..you're not going to get someone to come out to a place in the middle of nowhere to work with you unless you've got a track record. And do you want to work in a studio or run a business? If you want to set up a small studio of your own...yeah, find somewhere with lots of bands but few good studios, and have a go. Unfortunately, most guys straight out of recording school don't have the knowledge to actually make good recordings (that's not a personal slight - you may be great - I've just never met anyone else who was, and that includes me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
When I get there i'm thinking I'm gonna walk in to as many studios as possible and try and get chatty with any I meet. Good idea? I like hands on person to person approach rather than phone calls and emails.
Bad idea, unless you're looking to book the studio. My bosses would tell you to leave a CV and they'll get back to you - office is frantic a lot of the time, no time for random chats - even I have to make appointments for meetings sometimes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
I work Bristol and Oxford. Both excellent music places. Like Brighton too (LOVE Brighton Electric).
Yes, I forgot Brighton....there's a fair few studios down there (Ironworks as well, though I've never been there). Manchester has 2-3 top level places (Blueprint, a newer one that user bassjam on here co-owns, I'm sure there's at least one more), Liverpool has a few (Parr St, Motor Museum, is Elevator still going? plus smaller-but-quality places like Sandhills...). so it's not JUST London..but I could think of 30-40 places actually IN London - we've got about 10 rooms alone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
London? I work in London all the time at Abbey Road. But I don't focus on it for band work. Waste of time. There are no meaningful cense in London so it doesn't feed itself like Bristol, Brighton and Oxford do. Mainly, though, it's just that those are the towns I am currently working with bands on dev deals with labels (well - not dev deals in the old sense - they're contracted but need lots of pre production time).
I kind of disagree with narco here, although I don't disagree that band development can happen anywhere. It's just that as a fresh out of uni guy, you're not going to pick up producer contracts to develop bands! You'll need to do all the groundwork yourself, finding bands, getting them to pay you for doing recordings with them (notoriously hard!), and THEN you'll need to get into a studio to actually make the recordings with them.

It kind of depends on what you want to do really. If you want to get a studio job, as in learning engineering from the ground up (which IMO you need to do if you want to actually be an engineer) you need to be in London (or be lucky enough to get a staff assistant (well, regular freelance gig at least) job at a larger studio out of London that will pay you enough to live on).

If you want to forge your own path, developing bands and kind of being a "producer" rather than engineer, you could be anywhere that has a good music scene but only a few good studios. Find bands, get them to do recordings with you, take them into a studio, hire an engineer from that studio, and make the recordings (and learn from the house engineer so that in the future you can make better recordings yourself, and in time will only need an assistant in that studio).
Old 11th September 2011
  #20
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Yes, I forgot Brighton....there's a fair few studios down there (Ironworks as well, though I've never been there).
.... you know how I feel about Miloco.... heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I kind of disagree with narco here, although I don't disagree that band development can happen anywhere. It's just that as a fresh out of uni guy, you're not going to pick up producer contracts to develop bands! You'll need to do all the groundwork yourself, finding bands, getting them to pay you for doing recordings with them (notoriously hard!), and THEN you'll need to get into a studio to actually make the recordings with them.
Certainly doesn't apply to "freshmen" - or even young people!! takes a while!heh.
Old 11th September 2011
  #21
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robertshaw View Post
yeah in the 80s
there is like a million people there
lots of bands. maybe it's changed
the Detroit of the UK.

Without the bands.
Old 11th September 2011
  #22
Lives for gear
 
The Elf's Avatar
There's work everywhere, provided that you're realistic about how much you can charge. Outside London it seems you need to prove yourself over and over again. I'm just a bottom-feeder, but I make damned sure that everything that leaves my hands is a record, and that's worked to give me a career in the place I want to live and work.

It would take something very, VERY special for me work in London. As for living there... not for me, thanks!
Old 11th September 2011
  #23
Gear Addict
 

become a city banker and retire by the time u r 35 and setup a home studio with your spare change, with a vineyard in your back garden, and invest the rest in some mutual funds.
Old 11th September 2011
  #24
Lives for gear
 
dualflip's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
OK. We won't bother to tell you what you don't want to know. You've obviously got to try.

Here's the advice.....

Plan on making it big or dying trying. Live a long wealthy life at the top or die young. If you have the option to do something else, or have a backup plan, you will 100% need it. Plan on being homeless or mixing the next big thing. No other options. Or you WILL take them. That is the pathway you must take.




BTW, there are no jobs. At least not in the traditional sense. Get that out of your mind early, think outside the box and maybe you'll be the 1 in 10,000 that go big. I mean, it has to be SOMEONE right? Might as well be you - all you have to do is outlast the other 9,999 and be more talented. Actually, the PLAN is pretty simple. Executing it successfully is the trick. Best of luck.
Hey man, i think most of the time your posts are really great and you have something interesting to say, but mm sorry to tell you this but what you just said is BS.

I agree its not the easiest job or route available, and i agree you should try by every means to be successful, but the life or death situation, black VS white, rich VS poor, is complete BS. It doesnt have to be that extremist, i do believe there is a middle point, and i also believe there are a lot more jobs in the audio industry rather than just being homeless or mixing the next big thing.

I for instance, do make a living out of this, im in the music industry, but i have a lot of friends who are either making movies, or postproduction, TV, Radio, advertising, videogames, live sound, foleys, ADR, etc... Most of which (as opposed to what you say) do have a job in the traditional sense, from 9-5, paycheck, etc....

The OP wants a job in the AUDIO industry, we the music engineers are so greedy and selfish that we think that the audio industry is the music industry, and that couldnt be further from the truth.

Honestly i cant complain about not having a job, thats what i kept hearing since i started doing this, but so far so good. In fact if i had to complain about something, it wouldnt be about "the lack of jobs", but rather the job itself, which is extremely demanding and unhealthy, and by unhealthy i mean not sleeping well, not eating well, extreme fatigue, stress, loud speakers, loud guitar amps, etc...

So, if i could give advice to someone who is just starting out and wants to be a music recording/mixing engineer, it wouldnt be "get out of here, there are no jobs available", but rather, be prepared to work your a$$ off, to work long countless hours, be prepared to live fatigued most of the time (both mind, body, and ears), stressed, be prepared to work twice the amount of time you would work in an average day job, sometimes you will get paid accordingly to that, most of the time you wont.

Be prepared to recieve phone calls at 9pm from a guy saying that he desperately needs a mix to be finished by tomorrow before 7am. Dont make a lot of future plans because you are basically not the owner of your time.

Also be prepared to do the most awesome job there is!, at this pace im not sure if ill make it to 40, but i do love doing what i do.

Now im also being a bit extremist, thats not the norm but its very usual, in fact like i mentioned earlier, you can get a job doing something rather than music, a standard job, audio related.

On a side note, the last few years, ive seen more and more unemployed or underpaid MBAs & MBS (a member of my family included) rather than audio engineers, there are just waaay to much people doing the same thing already, and believe it or not, audio engineering is still not that saturated compared to the traditional careers.
Old 11th September 2011
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
London? I work in London all the time at Abbey Road. But I don't focus on it for band work. Waste of time. There are no meaningful scenes in London so it doesn't feed itself like Bristol, Brighton and Oxford do. Mainly, though, it's just that those are the towns I am currently working with bands on dev deals with labels (well - not dev deals in the old sense - they're contracted but need lots of pre production time).
Sorry to be nosey about your business is just with gearslutz people pretend to be someone their not. I totally get the band thing Bristol is great for That there's room to breath and space to grow i guess i know some of the acts you've worked with to.Brighton seems the same not that I've lived but many of my friends and ex band members did.
Alas I don't want to be a producer yet mainly because I don't want to be another kid that calls him a producer when he isn't I need to get better before I start titling my self but I have done some production work 3 or 4 times. I really want to be record, mix engineer but I think being multiskilled will get me further.
Old 11th September 2011
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Hey man, i think most of the time your posts are really great and you have something interesting to say, but mm sorry to tell you this but what you just said is BS.

I agree its not the easiest job or route available, and i agree you should try by every means to be successful, but the life or death situation, black VS white, rich VS poor, is complete BS. It doesnt have to be that extremist, i do believe there is a middle point, and i also believe there are a lot more jobs in the audio industry rather than just being homeless or mixing the next big thing.

I for instance, do make a living out of this, im in the music industry, but i have a lot of friends who are either making movies, or postproduction, TV, Radio, advertising, videogames, live sound, foleys, ADR, etc... Most of which (as opposed to what you say) do have a job in the traditional sense, from 9-5, paycheck, etc....

The OP wants a job in the AUDIO industry, we the music engineers are so greedy and selfish that we think that the audio industry is the music industry, and that couldnt be further from the truth.

Honestly i cant complain about not having a job, thats what i kept hearing since i started doing this, but so far so good. In fact if i had to complain about something, it wouldnt be about "the lack of jobs", but rather the job itself, which is extremely demanding and unhealthy, and by unhealthy i mean not sleeping well, not eating well, extreme fatigue, stress, loud speakers, loud guitar amps, etc...

So, if i could give advice to someone who is just starting out and wants to be a music recording/mixing engineer, it wouldnt be "get out of here, there are no jobs available", but rather, be prepared to work your a$$ off, to work long countless hours, be prepared to live fatigued most of the time (both mind, body, and ears), stressed, be prepared to work twice the amount of time you would work in an average day job, sometimes you will get paid accordingly to that, most of the time you wont.

Be prepared to recieve phone calls at 9pm from a guy saying that he desperately needs a mix to be finished by tomorrow before 7am. Dont make a lot of future plans because you are basically not the owner of your time.

Also be prepared to do the most awesome job there is!, at this pace im not sure if ill make it to 40, but i do love doing what i do.

Now im also being a bit extremist, thats not the norm but its very usual, in fact like i mentioned earlier, you can get a job doing something rather than music, a standard job, audio related.

On a side note, the last few years, ive seen more and more unemployed or underpaid MBAs & MBS (a member of my family included) rather than audio engineers, there are just waaay to much people doing the same thing already, and believe it or not, audio engineering is still not that saturated compared to the traditional careers.
That comment was a real eye opener it's not easy to put an audio career in context with others I guess if you want a decent career anywhere you have to work ass off in some way or another.
And the line between audio industry and music industry is a blurd one. If I want to get some where be big or whatever I'd try and make a career from drumming. But I just love to work with audio make stuff sound nice is all I want to do whether it's holding a boom for hours on end mixing the next big thing or doing a voice over or even designing some gear the object is always the same make stuff sound nice not let's get famous and make loadsa $ like a big time producer. I can't imagine that's what the big producer was thinking when he started.
Old 11th September 2011
  #27
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
Hey man, i think most of the time your posts are really great and you have something interesting to say, but mm sorry to tell you this but what you just said is BS.
heh That's cool. Of course you are 100% correct in your assesment of the biz. There is middle ground. It's where I live. heh What I said was meant to be a little tongue in cheek, but I do have to say that in recent years (last 10 or so), it's only the people who view life with no other options than succeeding that actually do succeed in this messed up biz. They are the ones that can continue to move forward when the others are getting frustrated. What's that saying? "When the going gets tough, the tough get going!" It's not that it's only death or being a CLA - there's lots of middle ground. But my point was those that hit the middle ground are the one's who only see success in their future. They see no plan B, no falling back on parents money, no working at McDonalds, no moving sideways into a music sales job - THEIR ONLY OPTION IS TO SUCCEED. If they've got the goods, those are the ones that outpace the PlanB-ers.

When I talk to young guys, if they have other "options", or a plan B, or have other interests that are equal, I usually gently try to suggest they follow those paths. But the ones that will not be swayed, the ones who won't listen to "your negative viewpoints", the ones who get mad that you even suggested it........those are the guys that eventually forge ahead and make a way for themselves. Those are the ones worthy of investing time in teaching, or mentoring. Of course, this is just my own observations, and shouldn't be taken as gospel truth - just my observations.
Old 11th September 2011
  #28
DrBill I think you right aswell but all we're talking about is making a livin doesn't matter how you get there. I understand I have friends who won't go to a better uni because being home is easier and they have a Saturday job they think they're get a career they're lazy and should try harder. I don't think dual flip is saying he's means someone like that. From my experience there can some times be a fine line between having an ego who thinks they're hence something will drop in front of them- ignorant and someone who actually puts hard work in. I don't many people with both.
Old 11th September 2011
  #29
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dandeurloo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Oh good you sound like the institute I went to heh and I suppose if I pay you loads of money your tell trade secrets and hook me up with industry pros lol.
This is why I tell people all the time that going to a music school is a waste of money and time. All the guys who use to have careers in music and no longer can make a dollar started up these "SCHOOLS". Now they take tons of money from people by selling them dreams and not much else.

Here in Minneapolis I know a number of the guys teaching. Heck I was offered a Job at 2 schools. 1 was about 10 years ago when the school was just starting up. I turned it down because I knew barely enough to get me going down the right path in music. Let alone get paid to try and teach others. Plus, I knew the guy starting up the school. Not really a person I would want to spend much time with.

I say listen to what drbill has to say. All of the pros I know and have had success all say the same kind of things. The road was extremely long and hard for them. The road is now longer and harder and "up hill both ways". I think its them kindly offering you a chance at a life that may be a little simpler.

Anyway. Good luck.
Old 11th September 2011
  #30
So londons a yes, take any opportunity to work. What's the best way to approach studio's, audio company's, production houses etc. Cv ? What would you guys look for?
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