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Making career plans and decisions Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th September 2011
  #31
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dandeurloo's Avatar
Do you play any thing? If so make your own music. Start growing your network and creating your own career path.

If you only do engineering then look in places other then studios for opportunity. Look at radio stations, tv stations and commercial houses. They may not be as sexy but you can get your feet wet and learn a lot. I have a friend who has recorded some of the coolest acts in the world because he worked for a cool radio station.

Oh and your gonna have to pay your dues! Which aren't the same thing as student loans.
Old 11th September 2011
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonnu View Post
become a city banker and retire by the time u r 35 and setup a home studio with your spare change, with a vineyard in your back garden, and invest the rest in some mutual funds.
I actually know someone who's done this...wrote a piece of hedge fund software, retired late 30s and now spends his days playing music. Has a nice basement studio...the unusual thing is that his songs are actually pretty good, he spent time on tour with the stranglers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
So londons a yes, take any opportunity to work. What's the best way to approach studio's, audio company's, production houses etc. Cv ? What would you guys look for?
For music studios:

Find out the name of the studio manager. email them personally, attach a CV - PDF format, no music (studio managers are looking for potential runners and assistants, not fullblown producers). If they reply, it'll probably be saying "no jobs, we'll keep you on file". If so, reply nicely saying if it's ok you'll contact them again in a month - try to build up a rapport, so that when you DO email in a month, they remember you. If there's no reply, phone the studio a week later, ask to speak to the SM - again, same routine.

No spelling or punctuation mistakes in CV! if you're filling in clients' details on media, you want to be able to spell their names!
Old 11th September 2011
  #33
Dandeurloo - I do hence the album I'm doing with a mate we're be doing another album together the idea for him is to keep doing this and start a label with us doing the recordings.

Psycho_monkey - this the golden advice I'm looking for that people don't share often thanks a million. Did that work for you?

Would anyone like to add to that?
Old 11th September 2011
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Psycho_monkey - this the golden advice I'm looking for that people don't share often thanks a million. Did that work for you?

Would anyone like to add to that?
the way I got in:

Made contact with assistant who did my course at uni through uni tutors. He put in a word for me, got work experience.

Whilst I was on work experience, got chatting to one of the van drivers delivering gear. He introduced me to his manager (he was also a singer) who owned a studio, and also to another studio manger, where I did work experience and eventually got a job.

This studio shut - I then went back to the CV sending - by this point I'd had some experience, and it was a bit easier to "get in". To be honest, even when I was freelance assisting I was still sending out CVs to try and get more work.

So - technically it wasn't the way I got in. HOWEVER - I did get 3-4 interviews through this method - 2 I didn't get, and 2 I was already working as an inhouse runner at a new studio by the time they replied to me, so didn't even take them up on it. I also spent a fair bit of time just going in for "chats" with managers at places like Sarm, and several smaller studios, so made contacts that way.
Old 11th September 2011
  #35
I guess that's Good networking on your part. I guess you need/helps alot to know someone on the inside as it seems.
Old 12th September 2011
  #36
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
I say listen to what drbill has to say. All of the pros I know and have had success all say the same kind of things. The road was extremely long and hard for them. The road is now longer and harder and "up hill both ways". I think its them kindly offering you a chance at a life that may be a little simpler.
Eh,,,,,,I can see that what I originally said came off a little harsh. But whenever anyone says - "I don't want to hear that there's no jobs".......heh - it's a little hard to be subtle with them. I probably deserve getting beat up a bit. But honestly, it wasn't meant to come off that way.

Think of it like this.....

What does it take to be the last man standing in a game where the last guy up wins?

It's really simple - don't sit or fall down. Don't allow the notion to even enter your mind. Don't allow your body to tell you different. Don't allow friends, family or anyone else deter you. Don't allow the thought to enter your mind. Given equal or better talent, THAT'S the person who will be the last man standing. I was trying to figure out if the OP is that guy.

Now, all that said, it takes a pretty unhealthy attitude to get there - emotionally, spiritually, physically and relation-ship wise. If I was doing it all over again with CURRENT conditions and circumstances, and if I had the experience to tap into, I would NOT choose a professional career path in audio/music if I had a wife and/or family. It's far different than it used to be, and honestly, is glamorized a lot more than where the reality of the situation lies.....

20+ years ago, being an audio engineer was pretty cool, not nearly as cool any more. Again, just my observations and opinions. Don't hate the messenger....
Old 12th September 2011
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
So londons a yes, take any opportunity to work. What's the best way to approach studio's, audio company's, production houses etc. Cv ? What would you guys look for?
Actually be living in London
Say you are free weekends and nights
Dont say you are 'in a band'
Dont tilt your head and start scratching your chin when they mention wages
Old 12th September 2011
  #38
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Ernest Buckley's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post
Get in the habit of saying yes to what's brought to you; yes creates connections, yes expands possibility. If something even remotely smells like a partial step in a direction that is possibly somewhat on course that may be good for you, say yes. Get to know as many people as possible, do as many favors as possible, keep a log of everyone you meet with enough info to remind you who they are 12 years after the fact.
I love UBKs advice about being open and saying yes. You know that saying about regretting the things you didn`t do more than the things you did do? Its true. Be open to all life has to offer, in all things, including going to school in another career or relationships.

The industry has changed, I started to see it when I was interning back in `94. Now its completely different. The old timers that grace GS with their presence on occasion grew up in a different time. Basically what I`m saying is that even though they have lots of good advice like "work hard", "know your craft", "network" (a word I hate because to me it implies that you`re just using someone for what they can do for you instead of truly being interested in them), etc... the reality is we are in completely new and unchartered territory. No one really has THE answer, they just have their story. Unlike most careers where you go to school, earn your degree and get a job, this industry is really about knowing your craft and being prepared for the opportunity which most of us call luck. Of course, it helps tremendously if you know the right people but that does not guarantee success. You still have to know your stuff which goes back to the top of my post: know your craft, work hard, and instead of "networking", ask others what you can bring to their projects if you sincerely believe in what they are doing.

I wish you much success in whatever you do and be open to all the roads that come before you.
Old 12th September 2011
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Eh,,,,,,I can see that what I originally said came off a little harsh. But whenever anyone says - "I don't want to hear that there's no jobs".......heh - it's a little hard to be subtle with them. I probably deserve getting beat up a bit. But honestly, it wasn't meant to come off that way.

he person who will be the last man standing. I was trying to figure out if the OP is that guy.

...
Yikes you probably think i'm not now but hey I don't give up, and I'm determined to this, if I keep chipping away I'll get there I guess I was being modest. If I say that it sounds like I don't want advice but I need all I can get. I didn't want to come across arrogant otherwise people won't wanna give me advice but then maybe I mistook arrogance for confidence. I don't want to get in a disagreement and not get advice from you good people.
Old 12th September 2011
  #40
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dandeurloo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Dandeurloo - I do hence the album I'm doing with a mate we're be doing another album together the idea for him is to keep doing this and start a label with us doing the recordings.

This is great. Because you can't wait for others to give you a break. You need to make your own break. By being busy learning and working on actual projects when you get a chance to work with someone else you will hopefully have the skills, personality and business knowledge to make the most of it.

Who knows maybe you guys will become the next mike mogis and saddle creek records! Then none of this will matter and others will be asking you how to get a start.
Old 12th September 2011
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Buckley View Post

The industry has changed, I started to see it when I was interning back in `94. Now its completely different. The old timers that grace GS with their presence on occasion grew up in a different time. Basically what I`m saying is that even though they have lots of good advice like "work hard", "know your craft", "network" (a word I hate because to me it implies that you`re just using someone for what they can do for you instead of truly being interested in them), etc... the reality is we are in completely new and unchartered territory. No one really has THE answer, they just have their story. Unlike most careers where you go to school, earn your degree and get a job, this industry is really about knowing your craft and being prepared for the opportunity which most of us call luck. Of course, it helps tremendously if you know the right people but that does not guarantee success. You still have to know your stuff which goes back to the top of my post: know your craft, work hard, and instead of "networking", ask others what you can bring to their projects if you sincerely believe in what they are doing.

I wish you much success in whatever you do and be open to all the roads that come before you.
Tbh anyone can tell to me to work hard, know you stuff and network but that's obvious. I like to hear individuals stories actually hard evidence from the horses mouth anaylse it and make my decision based on what I've found. After all it's horses for courses. People who fail or don't hard enough call it lucky. Typical conversation between bands: we got signed.... You lucky bastards I'm so jealous. the second will never anywhere because went to am institute like me where they think they're a record deal in their lap. I'd say that ruled out at least 90% of people claiming they want in on music, and in audio in some cases. These people annoy me because they waste my time.

People are fighting for decent jobs in many careers now more than ever, yes you can come straight and get an average job in your field some people more that and have to work hard to. Careers is careers i take if you want a good one your work hard. Not speaking from experience off course... heh good old gearslutz

Agreed on network it's a horrible cooperate stooge sounding word and it implies a sort of hard cold business man approach.

Thanks for your kind wishes
Old 12th September 2011
  #42
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

The number one rule that every successful person has followed is:

1. Never give up.

Good luck
Old 12th September 2011
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
This is great. Because you can't wait for others to give you a break. You need to make your own break. By being busy learning and working on actual projects when you get a chance to work with someone else you will hopefully have the skills, personality and business knowledge to make the most of it.

Who knows maybe you guys will become the next mike mogis and saddle creek records! Then none of this will matter and others will be asking you how to get a start.
Hahaha ye one day
Old 12th September 2011
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
The number one rule that every successful person has followed is:

1. Never give up.

Good luck
I think probably the best comment yet, I was expecting more people to shoot me down.
Old 12th September 2011
  #45
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
TPeople are fighting for decent jobs in many careers now more than ever,
Yes, but no one is fighting as hard for a LOW paying job as in the audio profession. The average income in the US is something like $38,000 for a full on pro engineer who's established - per year. I'm not sure that even rates as poverty level if you live in LA or NYC.

Bottom line, if you have a wife and/or family or plan on one, or if you want to own a home and live the "American Dream" (Sorry, I know you're a Brit, but that's the simplest way I could think to put it) you'd better be thinking outside the box. An AE job will not pay enough to make it with family on board.

If you don't like the numbers, YOU'LL have to change them. I know that I for one could not make it solely as an AE / Producer / Studio owner. I need other creative income streams, and for me, the last 5-10 years has been about adjusting AWAY from AE / Studio rentals TOWARDS more lucrative and longer lasting income streams. I'm lucky enough that I kept those streams in the MUSIC realm of things, but I know lots of Gold, Platinum and Grammy winning engineers who are "out of work" enough that they are painting or selling cars to stay afloat. It's easy when you're 20 with no strings, but if you want a "career" you need to extrapolate ahead to when you're 50+ and have a good plan that will float. It's no fun eating Ramen when you're 50 and have commitments to keep.
Old 12th September 2011
  #46
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
I think probably the best comment yet, I was expecting more people to shoot me down.
Isn't that basically what I said??? Kenny is so much better with fewer words.
Old 12th September 2011
  #47
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dandeurloo's Avatar
he's a wordsmith!
Old 12th September 2011
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Yes, but no one is fighting as hard for a LOW paying job as in the audio profession. The average income in the US is something like $38,000 for a full on pro engineer who's established - per year. I'm not sure that even rates as poverty level if you live in LA or NYC.

Bottom line, if you have a wife and/or family or plan on one, or if you want to own a home and live the "American Dream" (Sorry, I know you're a Brit, but that's the simplest way I could think to put it) you'd better be thinking outside the box. An AE job will not pay enough to make it with family on board.

If you don't like the numbers, YOU'LL have to change them. I know that I for one could not make it solely as an AE / Producer / Studio owner. I need other creative income streams, and for me, the last 5-10 years has been about adjusting AWAY from AE / Studio rentals TOWARDS more lucrative and longer lasting income streams. I'm lucky enough that I kept those streams in the MUSIC realm of things, but I know lots of Gold, Platinum and Grammy winning engineers who are "out of work" enough that they are painting or selling cars to stay afloat. It's easy when you're 20 with no strings, but if you want a "career" you need to extrapolate ahead to when you're 50+ and have a good plan that will float. It's no fun eating Ramen when you're 50 and have commitments to keep.
I get what you mean here I do more than wanting to be an AE I just aiming to have AE as my main gig but decisions like your talking need to be made we I have better idea of what getting maybe 2-3 years down the line. I understand few musicians make money from one stream we don't as many 9-5 careers these days

tbh it hadn't crossed my mind but I don't plan on having a family at least for 10-15 years. Pay hadn't crossed my mind either.
Old 12th September 2011
  #49
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
tbh it hadn't crossed my mind but I don't plan on having a family at least for 10-15 years. Pay hadn't crossed my mind either.
Cool. Now....if you can add "and I don't need to buy any gear either", Zhazammm!!! You've got the perfect career.
Old 12th September 2011
  #50
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
he's a wordsmith!
Kenny Gioia - Wordsmith!

That needs to be in his Sig line Dan.... heh
Old 12th September 2011
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Cool. Now....if you can add "and I don't need to buy any gear either", Zhazammm!!! You've got the perfect career.
You shot me down that time heh

If many of you guys can find a way I will to.
Old 12th September 2011
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
So londons a yes, take any opportunity to work. What's the best way to approach studio's, audio company's, production houses etc. Cv ? What would you guys look for?

Actually be living in London
Say you are free weekends and nights
Dont say you are 'in a band'
Dont tilt your head and start scratching your chin when they mention wages
Old 12th September 2011
  #53
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
If many of you guys can find a way I will to.
1. Many of them can't.

2. You asked about CVs - a proven track record of success, is the one and only real kicker in ANY CV.

3. Abilities - able to do the DAW thing to Ninja level, able to read a score and a circuit diagram.

4. Other skills - able to acquire customers and bring them through the front door.

5. As has been pointed out, rock and pop will not provide you with a career. We have one rock-pop band coming in this year, just one! EVERYTHING else is ranges from corporate videos to language courses, from folk music to voice-overs, from acoustic testing and measurement to classical.

So, back to the Batmobile - there are a handful of positions (as has been pointed out, there are more or less NO salaried jobs in studios for engineers) available to the newcomer, but there are some three thousand 'graduates' from the various music tech courses in the UK. Yes, three thousand. More, if you include all the part-time and night courses! That handful of jobs go to the very very few. You do the maths!

My honest advice to you - firstly, if you do not fulfil the requirements in point 3 of my list, don't even try to bother to think any further. Yes, there are loads of people who are working in the industry who do not fulfil those three things, but they got in some time ago, when it was still possible. It just is not possible any more.

Lastly, may I point out that working in a studio is usually incredibly boring! You spend 12 hours a day, totally on your own, in a windowless control room, staring into a computer screen. That is the real rock-face of this industry.

Where the hell do youngsters get the mad idea that it is groovy, windswept and exciting?
Old 12th September 2011
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
1. Many of them can't.

2. You asked about CVs - a proven track record of success, is the one and only real kicker in ANY CV.

3. Abilities - able to do the DAW thing to Ninja level, able to read a score and a circuit diagram.

4. Other skills - able to acquire customers and bring them through the front door.

5. As has been pointed out, rock and pop will not provide you with a career. We have one rock-pop band coming in this year, just one! EVERYTHING else is ranges from corporate videos to language courses, from folk music to voice-overs, from acoustic testing and measurement to classical.

So, back to the Batmobile - there are a handful of positions (as has been pointed out, there are more or less NO salaried jobs in studios for engineers) available to the newcomer, but there are some three thousand 'graduates' from the various music tech courses in the UK. Yes, three thousand. More, if you include all the part-time and night courses! That handful of jobs go to the very very few. You do the maths!

My honest advice to you - firstly, if you do not fulfil the requirements in point 3 of my list, don't even try to bother to think any further. Yes, there are loads of people who are working in the industry who do not fulfil those three things, but they got in some time ago, when it was still possible. It just is not possible any more.

Lastly, may I point out that working in a studio is usually incredibly boring! You spend 12 hours a day, totally on your own, in a windowless control room, staring into a computer screen. That is the real rock-face of this industry.

Where the hell do youngsters get the mad idea that it is groovy, windswept and exciting?
I agree with a lot of this. However, we've had a fair few interns start with us who've got...well, not FULL time jobs, but are getting paid assisting work. And whilst we do a bit of VO work, the occasional classical or corporate job, most of it IS rock and pop, so I think your perspective there is skewed by your own client base and location.

Whilst I can do basic soldering and take a channel out of a Neve, can read a score (I think I've only needed to do this twice) and have a vague idea of what's going on with a circuit diagram, I don't have to repair gear for my job - nor have I ever been asked if I could, we have maintenance engineers for that! As it happens, when we DID have an assistant who could do all that sort of thing, he was slowly shunted sideways into the maintenance division, until he got fed up and left to go back to the aeronautics industry which was way better paid!

What I CAN do, apart from the PT operation side of things (which *ahem* I do aspire to ninja status) is take a PT rig apart, and fix just about any problem aside from a full on hardware failure, plus a lot of computer based troubleshooting. IMO this is more important than being a repairman for hardware, in the current studio climate. After all - if the mic stops working, you put up a different one. If the computer stops working....?

your point about CVs is a good one, but I disagree with the earlier point about sending around showreels. Student showreels in the main aren't going to impress studio managers, even if they listened to them (they won't), and they're generally looking for assistants, not engineers or producers. Calling yourself an engineer or producer is generally a bad idea if looking for someone else to employ you - they'll be thinking you're not going to want to take directions etc.

Of course, the other route is actually to BE an engineer/producer and bring clients in yourself. This can work, but a) you have to be very good in the first place (most students aren't) and b) you may never get to learn from an established engineer/producer, thus stunting your own development. Despite graduating top of my year from an established, APRS-accredited course, I don't feel that I really started learning until I was running/assisting for real.
Old 12th September 2011
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
To be able to stay in London I either need a job (something related to music, theatre anythin audi really) or do another course but in sound. And yes i would love to get an intern in a studio but we all know it isn't easy and being in london will just increase my chances(right?)
Just picked up on this... I notice you mention theatre. I will say 2 things about this:

1) If working in live events don't expect to do anything half as audio-y as in the studio. It's more about getting it done than making it sound nice; on time and on budget.
2) However, unlike the studio world, there's not much of this 'prepared to live a crap life and not get paid nonsense'. You can start work at a local crew tomorrow and get paid from tomorrow, nobody in our business will expect you to work for free.

I do rock n roll touring and concerts, so I will talk about that not theatre. Rock n Roll generally pays more than theatre and is, IMO, more fun than theatre, but it is unanimously agreed that it's a lot harder work than theatre.
Where the route in studios might go Runner-Assistant-Engineer-Producer or similar, the route in live events is EITHER Local Crew-Touring Crew-Touring Specialist (IE sound engineer, lighting engineer, rigger, backline tech) - Tour Manager / Production Manager; or Local Crew-Crew Chief or Local Specialist-Head Engineer/Rigger OR Production Manager. But they're all split over a much wider timespan. Local Crew to Production Manager is probably 2 decades of work, 1 decade for the highly exceptional.

If sound is what you want to do, then you need to be Local Crew (really) for about a year or so as you will learn how it all goes together. The majority of sound engineers are ex local crew so by not doing it, you miss a vital step. Knowing how to coil the multicore properly is 100x more important than EQing the vocal mic right (which is why it winds me up that university courses spend so much time talking EQ and Compression and no time teaching you to wind a multicore); and you will need to learn how to fly different PA systems, what gets used for what, how to identify a 2.5 soca next to 1.5 soca, how to bang truss together... even down to just how to correctly push a flightcase up a ramp or take it down one. Don't go thinking that because you did a course you are the big man, most locals you will meet have worked on major concerts and you learn more in 3 major gigs than you learn in 3 years at university, that's just how the working world works.

I tell everyone that if you are new and do not already have a foot in any door, it is far more worth doing live events than studio work. You will work with big artists from the offset, you will be paid from the offset, and you don't really need to go through the small-time world to reach the big world, in terms of venues / equipment etc. In fact, you generally start in the bigger ones and work down. Once you've been a local for a year or so, you'll have the contacts to start thinking about becoming a noise boy / lampy / rigger etc; in fact during a year local'ing you might find that you enjoy something more than sound! I went to university to get a music degree and work in a studio, I left university as a reputable local rigger and am about to start a very well paid full time rigging job in Dubai. I have completely left the studio world behind, it's just not worth it. Rock n Roll touring is rewarding to a level of 1:1 - for everything you put in, you get as much out. Studio work, until you're up there and comfortable, is about 1:10 - ie for every 10 things you put in you'll be lucky to get one out.

I'm sure I'll get flak for this but it's just how it is. I had a studio job and binned it for this. In the studio world you spend half your life chasing rainbows for crap money. In the live industry you get a phone call every day saying "want work tomorrow? O2 Arena. (Major artist). Normal rate. Yep? Cool. You're on" simple as that, from day one; providing you're happy to be Local Crew first and not do the normal student thing of "oh yes I've done a course move out the way for me" thing.

Contemplate it. Less grief, more work, more money, sustainable industry. (Oh yes, sustainable industry. Records don't sell anymore. Concert tickets do).
Old 12th September 2011
  #56
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
Records don't sell any more. Concert tickets do).
Perhaps our OP might like to tattoo those words onto the insides of his eyeballs!

As for the rest of TRBD's post all I can say is amen, amen, amen! Every word is true - and I spent 12 years of my life on the road and they were some of the happiest years of my life!
Old 12th September 2011
  #57
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Isn't that basically what I said??? Kenny is so much better with fewer words.
No. I'm not. Your post was perfect. Mine was lazy. heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandeurloo View Post
he's a wordsmith!
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
Kenny Gioia - Wordsmith!

That needs to be in his Sig line Dan.... heh
Only in a very ironic way. heh
Old 12th September 2011
  #58
Quote:
Originally Posted by therealbigd View Post
Just picked up on this... I notice you mention theatre. I will say 2 things about this:

1) If working in live events don't expect to do anything half as audio-y as in the studio. It's more about getting it done than making it sound nice; on time and on budget.
2) However, unlike the studio world, there's not much of this 'prepared to live a crap life and not get paid nonsense'. You can start work at a local crew tomorrow and get paid from tomorrow, nobody in our business will expect you to work for free.

I do rock n roll touring and concerts, so I will talk about that not theatre. Rock n Roll generally pays more than theatre and is, IMO, more fun than theatre, but it is unanimously agreed that it's a lot harder work than theatre.
Where the route in studios might go Runner-Assistant-Engineer-Producer or similar, the route in live events is EITHER Local Crew-Touring Crew-Touring Specialist (IE sound engineer, lighting engineer, rigger, backline tech) - Tour Manager / Production Manager; or Local Crew-Crew Chief or Local Specialist-Head Engineer/Rigger OR Production Manager. But they're all split over a much wider timespan. Local Crew to Production Manager is probably 2 decades of work, 1 decade for the highly exceptional.

If sound is what you want to do, then you need to be Local Crew (really) for about a year or so as you will learn how it all goes together. The majority of sound engineers are ex local crew so by not doing it, you miss a vital step. Knowing how to coil the multicore properly is 100x more important than EQing the vocal mic right (which is why it winds me up that university courses spend so much time talking EQ and Compression and no time teaching you to wind a multicore); and you will need to learn how to fly different PA systems, what gets used for what, how to identify a 2.5 soca next to 1.5 soca, how to bang truss together... even down to just how to correctly push a flightcase up a ramp or take it down one. Don't go thinking that because you did a course you are the big man, most locals you will meet have worked on major concerts and you learn more in 3 major gigs than you learn in 3 years at university, that's just how the working world works.

I tell everyone that if you are new and do not already have a foot in any door, it is far more worth doing live events than studio work. You will work with big artists from the offset, you will be paid from the offset, and you don't really need to go through the small-time world to reach the big world, in terms of venues / equipment etc. In fact, you generally start in the bigger ones and work down. Once you've been a local for a year or so, you'll have the contacts to start thinking about becoming a noise boy / lampy / rigger etc; in fact during a year local'ing you might find that you enjoy something more than sound! I went to university to get a music degree and work in a studio, I left university as a reputable local rigger and am about to start a very well paid full time rigging job in Dubai. I have completely left the studio world behind, it's just not worth it. Rock n Roll touring is rewarding to a level of 1:1 - for everything you put in, you get as much out. Studio work, until you're up there and comfortable, is about 1:10 - ie for every 10 things you put in you'll be lucky to get one out.

I'm sure I'll get flak for this but it's just how it is. I had a studio job and binned it for this. In the studio world you spend half your life chasing rainbows for crap money. In the live industry you get a phone call every day saying "want work tomorrow? O2 Arena. (Major artist). Normal rate. Yep? Cool. You're on" simple as that, from day one; providing you're happy to be Local Crew first and not do the normal student thing of "oh yes I've done a course move out the way for me" thing.

Contemplate it. Less grief, more work, more money, sustainable industry. (Oh yes, sustainable industry. Records don't sell anymore. Concert tickets do).
I applied to the only local theatre offering jobs they had over 75 applicants so they to make a questionnaire and short list people. I have a lot more experience I use do foh at a 400 cap venue and a 2 week community festival kind of thing we set-up the tents stages etc it's probably nothing like theatre but it's a taste and I enjoyed it alot enough to do for a living. I thing have slimmed down that I want to be only a AE but I said I want work with audio and kinda the technical side of performing arts that's quit broad. I think see student and London and AE and think I'm another moron that been sold a fake dream.

On another note I'm gonna do this either way made my mind up a long time ago. I can ask friends what they think if I want someone to tell me I've got no chance.
I can sight read drums and notate very well and I'm pretty good with reading scores. I'm pretty good with computers not just soft but hardware to. Not a pro tools ninja but working on it. I've drum teched I've built guitars and I'm ok with circuits. I guess some people have a sour taste from the industry. You gotta start somewhere and anyone can learn to read a score read a circuit some people just choose not to.
Old 12th September 2011
  #59
Sorry about the grammar in my last post using my iPhone to post + dyslexia.
Old 14th September 2011
  #60
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
I applied to the only local theatre offering jobs they had over 75 applicants so they to make a questionnaire and short list people. I have a lot more experience I use do foh at a 400 cap venue and a 2 week community festival kind of thing we set-up the tents stages etc it's probably nothing like theatre but it's a taste and I enjoyed it a lot enough to do for a living. I thing have slimmed down that I want to be only a AE but I said I want work with audio and kinda the technical side of performing arts that's quit broad. I think see student and London and AE and think I'm another moron that been sold a fake dream.
I'm not assuming that you are another student who's been sold a fake dream. I am telling you how it is, as are all the other professionals talking on this thread. Studio career means lots of hard work, little reward, and a small chance you may be successful enough to escape that. Lie career means lots of hard work, realistic pay, other benefits too, and a fairly strong chance that you will graduate from being a nobody to a full time career in not that huge amount of time. I'm not here to put you down, stop looking for excuses and start facing reality.

Furthermore, give up on this 'I only want to be an audio engineer' bollocks. Bollocks is all it is and all it will ever be. You can't be a batsman on a cricket team if you can't field. We're the same.

In an audio rental company (Brit Row / SSE / Wigwam etc), in every 100 people who work there, there's like 2 FOH engineers. Want to be one of them? Not straight from school. Get used to the FACT that you can't play with mixing desks until you've spent a few years carrying them up the stairs.

If you want to be in our industry, the live concert industry, get over this "I did FOH in a venue" "I'm an AE" thing, you're not an AE and are not even close. You're not a FOH engineer and are not even close. You're on the right tracks but nowhere near really. You need to master the flightcase pushing and the cable running and the truck packing before you can even think about pushing buttons on the console.

I'm not trying to put you down, I'm just telling you. Get over it. I'm not sourgrapes'ing you. I have a full time job as a rigger. Do you? You can't expect to go straight in as the main man, so don't. Be ready to do the hard work before living the high life, don't make the normal student mistake of thinking your education replaces the need for experience. It doesn't.

Quote:
On another note I'm gonna do this either way made my mind up a long time ago. I can ask friends what they think if I want someone to tell me I've got no chance.
I can sight read drums and notate very well and I'm pretty good with reading scores. I'm pretty good with computers not just soft but hardware to. Not a pro tools ninja but working on it. I've drum teched I've built guitars and I'm ok with circuits. I guess some people have a sour taste from the industry. You gotta start somewhere and anyone can learn to read a score read a circuit some people just choose not to.
Yada yada yada. People say this every day. "I'm going to do this, it's my dream and I will thus succeed". Whatever. Crack on if it makes you feel good. Don't bother listening to 2 pages of people who do it for a living, and have gone through the very process to get there and know what it's actually like. Just jump in with your eyes closed because it's your dream and that's all it takes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sim View Post
Sorry about the grammar in my last post using my iPhone to post + dyslexia.
Sorry but welcome to the working world. I'm dyslexic, a fair few of us are. In education, you can say "I'm dyslexic" and you make some spelling mistakes they'll let you off. It's not like that in the working world. If you've got a problem, it's up to you to find a solution. If you're a 1-handed mechanic, you can't spend twice as long fixing cars as other mechanics but defend your full rate by saying "I'm one handed" - it's not their problem. If you know you're spelling suffers with your dyslexia, find a solution. You can't go through life saying "It's OK, I'm dyslexic so my spelling errors are your problems not mine". It's an industry where good spelling is important, sort it out and stop blaming it on dyslexia. I can manage fine, I use a dictionary when I struggle. But you can't expect to go through the working world excusing your shortfalls, you just need to solve them by working harder, clinical disability or otherwise.

[/RANT]
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