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Old 23rd March 2010
  #211
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flat's Avatar
Sorry to OP for this going a bit OT.

I may be a little edgy on this subject as I experienced 1st hand a nasty situation involving guns whilst on a visit to florida with my family. Suffice to say I would never take my son near that place again. Isolated incident or not, we felt no sense of protection or help.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #212
Gear Maniac
 

flat earth: I am sorry to hear that. Too bad they're wasn't an armed "real" citizen there to help. I have children and a family and it is my aim(sorry pun not intended) to keep them safe at all costs. Criminals lurk everywhere and no country should take the ability to defend themselves away from ANY citizen.

to pinkerton: I live in lalaland, nuff' said...

(ok, drop em' where they stand if you have to.)

WaAAAAAAy OT now, but,

this also applies at the workplace, especially the post office around these parts....

that was my segway back to the topic.


Nathan.

btw-I have family in england and they have a farm, long guns are needed to keep they're cattle and horses safe. so....beef it's what's for dinner....that's what wolves think too. lol.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #213
The Americans love their guns, its a "wild west" gun culture, always has been, the country was founded by the barrel of gun. Nothing we say is gonna change that, its part of their identity. They wouldn't be the worlds number one arms dealer if it wasn't.


Back to the thread guys.




.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #214
Lives for gear
 

to the OP sorry to keep on this subject but im going to have to highlight something here..

@ mystic; I live in the UK in a place with population of 100, 000, we have yearly average of 1490 cases of reported violence against someone else per 100 000 I can vouch for this having been at A E in a weekend and the usual flow of people trawling with wounds ranging from punches, bottles and at worst knives.

Now why would we want people having access to guns, you give someone a gun they'll use it and the reason we don't is because its very hard to get hold of them unless you look a lot deeper.

Thank f**k I don't live where you do.

by the way we don't have wolves here; we have these instead



edit: agreed back to thread ;0)
Old 23rd March 2010
  #215
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flat's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRecording View Post
flat earth: I am sorry to hear that. Too bad they're wasn't an armed "real" citizen there to help. I have children and a family and it is my aim(sorry pun not intended) to keep them safe at all costs. Criminals lurk everywhere and no country should take the ability to defend themselves away from ANY citizen.

to pinkerton: I live in lalaland, nuff' said...

(ok, drop em' where they stand if you have to.)

WaAAAAAAy OT now, but,

this also applies at the workplace, especially the post office around these parts....

that was my segway back to the topic.


Nathan.

btw-I have family in england and they have a farm, long guns are needed to keep they're cattle and horses safe. so....beef it's what's for dinner....that's what wolves think too. lol.

Sorry OT again, but I have to respond,

This is what happened:

I was visiting Burger King with my family in International Drive, Florida, when some 'hoodie' swiped my sons gameboy which was on the table beside him, I chased after him, i got outside the place and saw him with about 6 other 'rap stars' sitting in an open 4x4 grinning at me. Im a bodybuilder/boxer and can look after myself, so started towards them on a mission, at this point a hand landed on my shoulder, I looked round and some local guy said 'hey dude, walk away, not worth getting yourself shot over' I looked back and saw 2 of the hoodies with their hands tucked into there jackets, holding pistol butts. My son was crying behind me and I decided to leave. If I had had a firearm as you say:

1) It may well have prevoked them to shoot, putting my son in danger.

2) I probably wouldn't be here right now.

I went back to the bar and they weren't interested at all. I went back to the hotel and called the Police (Sheriff), no interest what so ever, just gave me a crime number and said call your holiday rep and claim on the theft.

I got the impression the guy who told me to 'walk away' had seen these idiots before, but nothing was done, no one was notified? wtf?

In England they would have been taken by the Police (and I mean alot of Police) with in minutes.

Having a weapon would have been a very bad idea in that situation.




.....back to Topic
Old 23rd March 2010
  #216
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth View Post
Sorry to OP for this going a bit OT.

I may be a little edgy on this subject as I experienced 1st hand a nasty situation involving guns whilst on a visit to florida with my family. Suffice to say I would never take my son near that place again. Isolated incident or not, we felt no sense of protection or help.
Don't be sorry. Sometimes it's best to discuss these things, as long as it doesn't end up needless mudslinging. I understand how you feel, in a way.

I'll tell you a little story. A little over ten years ago I was sitting in my buddy's apartment with my girlfriend one evening, casually hanging out when there was a knock on the door. My friend went to answer it and right as he opened the door two guys flung the door open and forced their way in, slamming him to the ground. One had a semi-auto pistol and he immediately comes over to the couch where we're sitting and puts it in my face, then to my girlfriend's head telling us not to move or he'll kill us. They proceeded to rob us and then further assault my friend, while making comments about how they wanted to rape my girlfriend as they ransacked the house. Fortunately they left the place after stealing some cash and a few random items.

I'm pretty sure the dudes robbing and assaulting us had not legally obtained the firearm they used to commit their crime. I also know they would still be carrying that firearm and using it against law abiding folks even if there were laws prohibiting the possession of guns. If I would've had a gun in my possession I'm sure the story would've ended differently, because I would not think twice about removing someone from this plane of existence who threatened to kill me and rape my girlfriend.

Politicians have ulterior motives for wanting to take our guns. They know it's a fact that crime rates drop in the areas where citizens have the option to be armed. That's why they want to take our guns, because THEY are the REAL criminals and they want to do with us as they please. The same as the bastards who broke into my friend's apartment. They are no different.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #217
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rushton's Avatar
 

yeah go for your life it doesnt bother me
Old 23rd March 2010
  #218
Quote:
Originally Posted by msl View Post
The Americans love their guns, its a "wild west" gun culture, always has been, the country was founded by the barrel of gun. Nothing we say is gonna change that, its part of their identity. They wouldn't be the worlds number one arms dealer if it wasn't.
Because England and Ireland have a very short history of violence.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #219
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth View Post
Sorry OT again, but I have to respond,

This is what happened:

I was visiting Burger King with my family in International Drive, Florida, when some 'hoodie' swiped my sons gameboy which was on the table beside him, I chased after him, i got outside the place and saw him with about 6 other 'rap stars' sitting in an open 4x4 grinning at me. Im a bodybuilder/boxer and can look after myself, so started towards them on a mission, at this point a hand landed on my shoulder, I looked round and some local guy said 'hey dude, walk away, not worth getting yourself shot over' I looked back and saw 2 of the hoodies with their hands tucked into there jackets, holding pistol butts. My son was crying behind me and I decided to leave. If I had had a firearm as you say:

1) It may well have prevoked them to shoot, putting my son in danger.

2) I probably wouldn't be here right now.

I went back to the bar and they weren't interested at all. I went back to the hotel and called the Police (Sheriff), no interest what so ever, just gave me a crime number and said call your holiday rep and claim on the theft.

I got the impression the guy who told me to 'walk away' had seen these idiots before, but nothing was done, no one was notified? wtf?

In England they would have been taken by the Police (and I mean alot of Police) with in minutes.

Having a weapon would have been a very bad idea in that situation.




.....back to Topic

reading this made me angry.

nothing you can do in that situation.

i hope they all get really nasty cancer of the cock.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #220
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
reading this made me angry.

nothing you can do in that situation.

i hope they all get really nasty cancer of the cock.

Likewise feel bad for you and your son having to see that Flatearth.. and what you don't need in that situation is a kind armed citizen to help you out with a good old fashioned shoot out while your son stands there!
Old 23rd March 2010
  #221
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jonnypowell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
They know it's a fact that crime rates drop in the areas where citizens have the option to be armed. .
Or how about NO guns at all..? Crime rate really drops then.

I think it's pretty fair to say that the rest of the developed world looks at Americas right to guns as insanity.. You have a right to protect yourself from other people who have guns to protect themselves from other people etc etc.. WTF!?
Old 23rd March 2010
  #222
Quote:
Originally Posted by flat earth View Post
Sorry OT again, but I have to respond,

This is what happened:
I applaud you for using your head. Even if you were packing, you would still be better off just walking away from that situation. That's the biggest responsibility of firearm ownership, knowing it should only be used if you (or a loved one) is actually threatened with losing your life. You wouldn't want to play "fast draw" with some ******** gangbangers over a gameboy.

Let's clear something up for the folks across the pond. Just because we have the right to carry here doesn't mean we're allowed to wave 'em around when we're feeling "socially uncomfortable". There's been plenty of people prosecuted in the states for using unjustified force in a non-life-threatening situation.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #223
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnypowell View Post
Or how about NO guns at all..? Crime rate really drops then.

I think it's pretty fair to say that the rest of the developed world looks at Americas right to guns as insanity.. You have a right to protect yourself from other people who have guns to protect themselves from other people etc etc.. WTF!?
It's simply not true that violent crime rates drop when there are no guns allowed. This has been proven in England where violent crime rates went up after private firearm ownership is banned. It's the same way in our major cities here in the states. New York City, Chicago, LA all have the highest rates of violent crime and you're not allowed to carry there. This way, the guy who wants to beat you to death with his baseball bat doesn't have to be worried about getting shot.

It all boils down to this:

There are people on this planet whose first (and only) language is violence. When I encounter these people, I prefer to have the proper tools to communicate with them.

I personally think it's insane not to...
Old 23rd March 2010
  #224
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnypowell View Post
Or how about NO guns at all..? Crime rate really drops then.

I think it's pretty fair to say that the rest of the developed world looks at Americas right to guns as insanity.. You have a right to protect yourself from other people who have guns to protect themselves from other people etc etc.. WTF!?

I don't think the penny is going to drop for everyone Jonny heh
Old 23rd March 2010
  #225
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post

It all boils down to this:

There are people on this planet whose first (and only) language is violence. When I encounter these people, I prefer to have the proper tools to communicate with them.

I personally think it's insane not to...
or you can walk away .
Old 23rd March 2010
  #226
rat

I'm a factory rat. have been for the past three years.

too bad i don't get paid to engineer, and can't even get it off the ground!

oh well, can't win them all i guess.




i was staying at a hotel in florida back when, and the car right next to mine in the morning was up on blocks.

i tried to gather up the lug nuts i could find and neatly pile them next to the door and then promptly drove off.

that was probably the start of a really bad day for that guy.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #227
Quote:
Originally Posted by genieg View Post
or you can walk away .
Well most sane people choose to walk away. I don't want to hurt anyone but clearly there are situations where that may not an option.

I don't know what part of the world you live in (maybe Disneyland?). There are people out there who are aggressors. Sometimes they actually prey on people and kill them without impunity. Sometimes it's because they want your possessions or money. Sometimes it's because they've lived a sad life or just had a bad day. I know it sounds crazy, yet this doesn't only happen in the movies.

Last edited by plaid_emu; 23rd March 2010 at 02:45 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 23rd March 2010
  #228
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jonnypowell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by genieg View Post
I don't think the penny is going to drop for everyone Jonny heh
Not expecting it to.. I just find it disturbing how normal owning a gun seems to everyone over there. Madness!
Old 23rd March 2010
  #229
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnypowell View Post
Not expecting it to.. I just find it disturbing how normal owning a gun seems to everyone over there. Madness!
Says the man who lives on one of the world's most dangerous continents! Damn, if I lived in Australia I'd want to own a gun just protect myself from the wildlife! (and I don't mean the folks living in the red light district of Sydney) heh
Old 23rd March 2010
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
Well most sane people chose to walk away. I don't want to hurt anyone but clearly there are situations where that may not an option.

I don't know what part of the world you live in (maybe Disneyland?). There are people out there who are aggressors. Sometimes they actually prey on people and kill them without impunity. Sometimes it's because they want your possessions or money. Sometimes it's because they've lived a sad life or just had a bad day. I know it sounds crazy, yet this doesn't only happen in the movies.

I live in the UK, you get people from all walks of life here haven't seen Mickey Mouse yet though so I'm pretty sure its not Disney Land.

There are those that will go out looking for trouble where I live; its got a lot worse over the last 10 years like I said, but its not Johhanesburg in SA, no guns your not going to get shot simple as that. You might get a slap from someone or end up in fight but your chances are better because no one's packing heat baby and unless they've got go go arms those flying fists wont catch you as your running down the road.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #231
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
It's simply not true that violent crime rates drop when there are no guns allowed. This has been proven in England where violent crime rates went up after private firearm ownership is banned. It's the same way in our major cities here in the states. New York City, Chicago, LA all have the highest rates of violent crime and you're not allowed to carry there. This way, the guy who wants to beat you to death with his baseball bat doesn't have to be worried about getting shot.

It all boils down to this:

There are people on this planet whose first (and only) language is violence. When I encounter these people, I prefer to have the proper tools to communicate with them.

I personally think it's insane not to...

I come from a country with one of the lowest crime rate in the entire Europe.

There is a part of my country where citizents are packed with guns (Sfakia in the hellenic island of Crete) . No its not legal, its just that this area has a long tradition with guns, not even ****s dared to conquer them , because these people are plain insane.

They are not criminals or necessarily bad people, but they will kill you in an instand in the name of honour even if they are 1 against 1000, and they have been outnumbered many times in their history.

Suffice to say , that we had alot of problems with them.

Violence is where guns are, so its actually brainless not to ban guns. Its simple, you dont need a brain to understand it, and there is countless examples why you shouldnt leave a person and a gun in same room. It does not matter if the person is good or bad. Recipe for disaster.

As a lawyer , I dont know on what legal grounds guns are legal on USA, its just makes no legal sense. But in any case , I dont think that baning guns is the only step.

Because country where owning a gun is illegal, make it easy to own a gun and that is pretty much the same scenario as making it legal to own a gun.

Do I believe as a legal professional that close control of gun ownership can pretty much criple criminal behaviour. Sure I do!

IT wont stop it, but it will surely cripple it.

Nice off topic by the way..... One of the rare cases where I enjoy an offtopic.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #232
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jonnypowell's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by plaid_emu View Post
Says the man who lives on one of the world's most dangerous continents! Damn, if I lived in Australia I'd want to own a gun just protect myself from the wildlife! (and I don't mean the folks living in the red light district of Sydney) heh
fortunately crocodiles don't have a penchant for gameboys.. Just English back-packers!

I virtually live in the red light district (kings cross) and it's really bot that dangerous.. It used to be many years ago though.
Still very dicey with lots of hookers, junkies and every few months a few thousand American sailors!
My home away from home.. (o;
Old 23rd March 2010
  #233
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jonnypowell's Avatar
 

England seems to have really bad knife crime in recent years.. Everytime I'm there it seems to be worse or the media are blowing it out of proportion perhaps? I even read about it all the way over here.. There was a big article in Time magazine recently about how many young kids are being stabbed at school etc and it becoming the norm for them to carry knives.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnypowell View Post
England seems to have really bad knife crime in recent years.. Everytime I'm there it seems to be worse or the media are blowing it out of proportion perhaps? I even read about it all the way over here.. There was a big article in Time magazine recently about how many young kids are being stabbed at school etc and it becoming the norm for them to carry knives.

they might be reporting on the teenage gangs most recently seeing a lot of news in London, Manchester with stabbings and shootings, I can only go on what I read I don't live in London anymore; to be honest when I did there was a lot less agro going out there than the place I grew up in and now live.

and thought for the day if anyone within reason can buy guns it then makes access to them a whole lot easier .. someone breaks into a shop and steals guns, someone breaks into your house when your out and steals your gun or someone breaks into your house when your there; you go downstairs in your shining armour holding your gun but robber person gets your gun off you and then shoots you. The End
Old 23rd March 2010
  #235
Seriously folks I lived in the states for 10 years went to school there, 8 out of 10 of my friends were packing. Its the way it is, as american as apple pie. Saw two people get shot, one fatally was a witness at the trial too.

There IS a disconnect in most americans minds, the numbers don't lie just look at the figures for Canada vs US gun crime. Has nothing really to do with personal liberty, more the result of a heavily militarized society.


BTW Plaid a nations violent history does have a role to play, I'm Irish by the way.


Anyway this was a cool thread, lets get back to it before this gets moved to the politics forum.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #236
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Resonant Serpent's Avatar
 

Currently there is a cover up in the national media when dealing with Mexican cartels here in the US. I live in rural Texas, and the cartel problem has exploded. If you don't have a gun here, you're simply stupid because you and your family will become a statistic sooner or later. In one year, the crime in Abilene, Texas jumped 179% according to the local police, but according to the federal statistics, it fell. Who are you going to believe, the feds who don't want to spend money on the border, or the cops who deal with it every day? It's no secret that there are factions of our government that make a lot of cash off the drug trade here in the US, so the cartels are integral in that system, the citizens be damned. Sure, there are troops on the border, but are you even aware that they aren't allowed to carry ammo? Last week they torched one of the local police cars, we have home invasions, meth labs exploding, etc. We've even had grenades and pipe bombs thrown. It's a mess.

People say that having a gun lowers crime, but both Chicago and Washington DC both had gun bans, and they had the highest crime in nation for many years running. The Brits and Aussies both have much higher assault rates than the US. I'd love to live in a Star Trek future where we don't need guns, but that's not the reality of the situation, at least where I live.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #237
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kilon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resonant Serpent View Post
Currently there is a cover up in the national media when dealing with Mexican cartels here in the US. I live in rural Texas, and the cartel problem has exploded. If you don't have a gun here, you're simply stupid because you and your family will become a statistic sooner or later. In one year, the crime in Abilene, Texas jumped 179% according to the local police, but according to the federal statistics, it fell. Who are you going to believe, the feds who don't want to spend money on the border, or the cops who deal with it every day? It's no secret that there are factions of our government that make a lot of cash off the drug trade here in the US, so the cartels are integral in that system, the citizens be damned. Sure, there are troops on the border, but are you even aware that they aren't allowed to carry ammo? Last week they torched one of the local police cars, we have home invasions, meth labs exploding, etc. We've even had grenades and pipe bombs thrown. It's a mess.

People say that having a gun lowers crime, but both Chicago and Washington DC both had gun bans, and they had the highest crime in nation for many years running. The Brits and Aussies both have much higher assault rates than the US. I'd love to live in a Star Trek future where we don't need guns, but that's not the reality of the situation, at least where I live.
I totally get , what you are sayin and be certain I would not like to be in your place.

That is why I said that baning guns is not the answer, close control of gun sales through legal or illegal means is the only answer.

Means nothing to declare the sale of a gun illegla, if anyone can easily get a gun.

Law is just writiing in a piece of paper if it is not enforced.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #238
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilon View Post
Violence is where guns are, so its actually brainless not to ban guns. <snip> As a lawyer ...
With arguments on that level I'm sure you are very successful on your field.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #239
Lives for gear
 

As a quick sidenote, the highest gun ownership per capita in the world is in Switzerland with about 40 to 45% of the population armed. But in comparison whats the gun crime here?

The main issue isnt really gun ownership, its how democratic the USE of these guns has become. In the US, in some states, its a fundamental right to blow someones head off if they step on your property... thats much too democratised for a 1st world country.
Old 23rd March 2010
  #240
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kasprouch View Post
In the US, in some states, its a fundamental right to blow someones head off if they step on your property.
No wonder the world at large is so scared of the American right to bear arms with this kind of rampant disinformation. Cite sources to back up this claim. You won't be able to as it is pure fallacy.
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