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Call me crazy but is UFO disclosure near? What Role will music play if true?
Old 17th December 2019
  #3181
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ignorantape's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
Isn't that called electronic warfare? Disturbing the opponents radar with faux signals etc?
Radar spoofing.
Old 18th December 2019
  #3182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Slight resemblance to the Sleestak from The Land of the Lost:
"V"

Old 4 weeks ago
  #3183
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignorantape View Post
Radar spoofing.


As I have been saying on a number of occasions, the existence of a radar return for an object is not proof of the existence of a physical object. Much less proof of its supposed ‘capabilities’.

The “no Earthly craft” argument is moot if there remains open the possibility that there is no physical craft. To the kitten, the red dot on the wall is an ‘object’ so it seems to behave in ‘impossible’ ways. But if you take a step back and consider that it might not be an object, but a projection of a laser pointer, then the “impossibility” is resolved.

Tyler Rogway runs The War Zone one of the best blogs on military stuff. His expertise is considerable, and the popularity of his blog gives him a network of contacts and experts who can provide him with very deep information, often seemingly just short of classified.

He was one of the first to report on the Nimitz encounters and did so in a sober manner, neither breathlessly raving about “aliens” nor being joking or condescending about the actual reports. And while the subject has faded from the headlines, he has kept on digging deeper. In this article he interviews some former Area 51 Special Projects engineers on the topic:

Area 51 Veteran And CIA Electronic Warfare Pioneer Weigh In On Navy UFO Encounters
Quote:
In fact, for T.D Barnes, a former Special Projects engineer at Area 51, this entire UFO story sounds very familiar. …To combat these concerns, the CIA launched an audacious program to develop technology that could electronically generate and interject false targets into the Soviet radars, to trick them “seeing” and tracking non-existent “ghost aircraft.” The project’s codename was PALLADIUM.

“Using an electronics-laden C-97 [EC-97G], we could make Soviet radars believe they were tracking any number of aerial objects,” mused Barnes. “At one point, a Russian MiG-15 pilot even claimed he could see the target and had a lock on it.
this was in the 1960’s!

When it comes to the more recent Navy UFO encounters, Barnes says, “I don’t have the answers to what the Navy aviators saw, but in my mind, I’m thinking, we are doing it again." I highly recommend the whole article as it goes into great detail.

Another related story: The Navy's Secretive And Revolutionary Program To Project False Fleets From Drone Swarms

Quote:
Similar to the 1960s Project Palladium at its most basic level, but almost unimaginably superior in scale and capabilities, NEMESIS gives the Navy the ability to simultaneously fool a vast array of enemy sensors spread out over a large area, giving the illusion of ghost fleets of vessels on and below the surface of the ocean and formations of aircraft in the sky. The shadowy system achieves this via networking a vast array of disparate electronic warfare platforms and decoys together, including various swarms of unmanned aircraft and vessels, to create high-fidelity and unified electronic warfare effects across a battlefield.
Another report was about those shiny “cubes” within spheres the pilots reported:

Are Some Of The UFOs Navy Pilots Are Encountering Actually Airborne Radar Reflectors?

Quote:
Poteat was, however, able to offer some little-known details about PALLADIUM that potentially hold significance to recent UFO reports. “To determine Russia's ability to detect small targets, we used submarine-launched balloon-based metallic spheres,” said Poteat. “The idea was for the early warning radar to track our electronic aircraft. Then for our submarine to surface and release the calibrated spheres up and into the path of the oncoming false aircraft.”
Anyone who launches a high-altitude balloon knows to attach things like this to make aircraft aware of your balloon. (Radar will go right through the balloon itself.)

There is actually a patent for a balloon which has the reflector inside the balloon instead of dangling on a wire below it, which is exactly the “cube within a sphere” form factor that was observed. These balloons with varying sizes and varying degrees of reflectivity are often released in tests of radar capability.

Call me crazy but is UFO disclosure near? What Role will music play if true?-screen-shot-2019-12-20-6.15.52-pm.png

Quote:
For the Navy to point at video evidence and say, that’s “Unidentified Aerial Phenomena” represents a rare move by a branch of the American military. For a lot of people, this declaration seems to slam the door on any debate of whether or not the objects in question are highly exotic and classified aerospace technology. However, referring back to The War Zone’s*in-depth coverage on Special Access Programs (SAPs), if these aircraft were related to an unacknowledged SAP or waived-unacknowledged SAP, the existence of this technology would be denied to everyone outside of the program. Moreover, if these were highly classified technologies emerging from a SAP being run by another branch of the Department of Defense, the Navy could indeed be unaware of what these objects really are.
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Call me crazy but is UFO disclosure near? What Role will music play if true?-screen-shot-2019-12-20-6.15.52-pm.png  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3184
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monomer's Avatar
 

The stuff released tho is not radar data. It's from an infrared camera.

I'm thinking this might be a light phenomenon. Maybe a laser.
At some point you see the 'tic tac' seemingly stand still and rotate in a weird way'. To me this looks very much like the result of an optical manipulation. Can't say from the footage whether it's in the camera or actually in the air.
But it does remind me of how lens artefacts can seem to transform.

Maybe it's some sort of laser weapon that can project a 'dot' that can be made to travel at ludicrous speeds and take impossible turns? Would maybe also explain how it can interact with surface water. It would start evaporating the surface and thus maybe give the appearance that there was an object ploughing through the water, as reported.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3185
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memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
The stuff released tho is not radar data. It's from an infrared camera.

I'm thinking this might be a light phenomenon. Maybe a laser.
At some point you see the 'tic tac' seemingly stand still and rotate in a weird way'. To me this looks very much like the result of an optical manipulation. Can't say from the footage whether it's in the camera or actually in the air.
But it does remind me of how lens artefacts can seem to transform.

Maybe it's some sort of laser weapon that can project a 'dot' that can be made to travel at ludicrous speeds and take impossible turns? Would maybe also explain how it can interact with surface water. It would start evaporating the surface and thus maybe give the appearance that there was an object ploughing through the water, as reported.
There is an old short story by Stanislav Lem, where the protagonist hunts an UFO (in deep space, 50s SciFi). Longer story short is, in the end it turns out it's an artifact of his camera or screen, some accumulation of charge (or something, I forgot) which moves away from the center when his vessel makes a sharp move. So he's hunting that moving spot, nearly gets lost in deep space like his predecessors did. Also the light pulsates which induces some trance state...

I can imagine it's something like this.

But who knows.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3186
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
The stuff released tho is not radar data. It's from an infrared camera.
most of the reports I have read include tidbits of visual, infrared and radar information all jumbled up together and then breathlessly treating the information as if it was all "correlated" - which it apparently was not. One thing was seen, one thing was on radar, one was on FLIR. If the event was a test of a 'spoofing' system, this is exactly what you would expect.

Quote:
In Barnes’ opinion, the edited and shortened ATFLIR videos and pilot's demeanor suggests aviators were at least vaguely aware of what they were targeting. "The videos 'I've seen, the pilots were whooping it up. I think they knew," said Barnes, referring to the "Go Fast" and "Gimbal" videos. With the pilots who have spoken about the incidents, all deny having any knowledge of what were the mysterious objects they encountered.
as of course they would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer
I'm thinking this might be a light phenomenon. Maybe a laser.
At some point you see the 'tic tac' seemingly stand still and rotate in a weird way'. To me this looks very much like the result of an optical manipulation. Can't say from the footage whether it's in the camera or actually in the air. But it does remind me of how lens artefacts can seem to transform.
Yes, since infrared is heat, it might be a simple matter to focus a few lasers and generate a hot spot in the air that shows up on the screen. Then there would be no "thing" - only a focal point that could be moved with ease in 'impossible' ways.

That same website has a story about visual stealth:

Can The U.S. Military Make An Airplane Invisible To The Naked Eye?


Quote:
While the world has yet to be shown evidence of an "invisible" aircraft or a high-end adaptive aircraft camouflage system that comes close to achieving such a goal, there is more than enough documentation originating from both the Department of Defense and associated private contractors to suggest that these technologies may be very much real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer
Maybe it's some sort of laser weapon that can project a 'dot' that can be made to travel at ludicrous speeds and take impossible turns?
A number have people have pointed out that from looking at the various vector indicators on the screen that at least one such "rapid turn" by the object was actually a result of the jet shearing off in the opposite direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer
Would maybe also explain how it can interact with surface water. It would start evaporating the surface and thus maybe give the appearance that there was an object ploughing through the water, as reported.
The original article made mention of submarine-launched drones to execute the radar spoofing. A nuclear sub blowing its ballast tanks in a crash dive would appear exactly as if an area of the ocean was "boiling".
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3187
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ignorantape's Avatar
 

Very interesting and detailed discussion here.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/200...ge-flir1.9190/

Worth a read, metabunk is awesome.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3188
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
That same website has a story about visual stealth:

Can The U.S. Military Make An Airplane Invisible To The Naked Eye?
They developed that capability after Colonel Steve Trevor briefed the USAF after his encounter with the lovely Diana Prince.
Old 1 week ago
  #3189
Gear Maniac
 
tweekyboo's Avatar
 

No evidence of aliens unless our DNA was sent by aliens on comets or asteroids.
Old 1 week ago
  #3190
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweekyboo View Post
No evidence of aliens unless our DNA was sent by aliens on comets or asteroids.
More likely 'they' would send some form of RNA replicase into an environment already rich in precursor chemicals and amino acids from extra-planetary objects or cloud-based ecosystems...and let time and nature do the rest.
The problems with natural panspermia arguments (re: origins of life on Earth) is that the necessary molecules/chains had to exist somehere prior to transmission to Earth, and equally could have been generated on Earth.

Nothing preventing the spontaneous emergence of lifeforms given the conditions on early Earth. Plenty of opportunity.

Maybe we are alone and space is a hall of mirrors depicting the past and future in one moment in time?
Old 1 week ago
  #3191
One turd is all it takes....

UFO's don't have toilets you know...
Old 1 week ago
  #3192
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12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmik Prod. View Post
One turd is all it takes....

UFO's don't have toilets you know...
Maybe the fancy ones have them. I haven't seen the movie, but doesn't ET eat Reese's Pieces?

If I had a spaceship, I'd name the toilet, "The Black Hole."
Old 1 week ago
  #3193
With the vacuum of space a just a simple valve would do the trick...

You could still impregnate a planet that way...

"oh look, a little meteorite !"

"SPLAT!"


Yeah, sh*t happens
Old 1 week ago
  #3194
..

Last edited by Cozmik Prod.; 1 week ago at 08:11 PM.. Reason: double post
Old 1 week ago
  #3195
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memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Nothing preventing the spontaneous emergence of lifeforms given the conditions on early Earth. Plenty of opportunity.
actually it isnt that easy and is still kind of a riddle.
how many genes does a minimum biome have? 200? 300? that requires a large number of aminoacids in a dna in the right arrangement plus it requires that the dna plus the cell organs plus the cells outer shell are in place, and it requires an environment where that cell can live and replicate "forever".

Thats quite a high number of odd circumstances, quite unlikely.

Like expecting a tornadao in a scrapyard to put all the scrap parts of a car into place, fuel it and start its engine.

Somehow it did happen, but where and why is totally a mystery to date.
I think that there is an important step in the formation of life thats still not understood.
Shure aminoacids can form under certain circumstances, but life is a different story.
Old 1 week ago
  #3196
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post

Maybe we are alone and space is a hall of mirrors depicting the past and future in one moment in time?
What do you mean "we"? Maybe you (or I) are all alone and even the rest of the Earth and its inhabitants are just a hall of mirrors. Never mind the rest of the Universe.

The thought reminds me of the concept of Boltzmann's Brains.
Old 1 week ago
  #3197
Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
actually it isnt that easy and is still kind of a riddle.
how many genes does a minimum biome have? 200? 300? that requires a large number of aminoacids in a dna in the right arrangement plus it requires that the dna plus the cell organs plus the cells outer shell are in place, and it requires an environment where that cell can live and replicate "forever".

Thats quite a high number of odd circumstances, quite unlikely.

Like expecting a tornadao in a scrapyard to put all the scrap parts of a car into place, fuel it and start its engine.

Somehow it did happen, but where and why is totally a mystery to date.
I think that there is an important step in the formation of life thats still not understood.
Shure aminoacids can form under certain circumstances, but life is a different story.
This is the standard and understandable response from someone unfamiliar with the initial conditions, mechanisms, and time available for such a reaction to occur. It's all about probability and opportunity.

Hint: think about Borges Infinite Library as a metaphor for the environment for early proto-lifeforms: quadrillions of reactions per millisecond over billions of years in oceans of precursor chemicals.
Old 1 week ago
  #3198
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
What do you mean "we"? Maybe you (or I) are all alone and even the rest of the Earth and its inhabitants are just a hall of mirrors. Never mind the rest of the Universe.

The thought reminds me of the concept of Boltzmann's Brains.
By 'we' I mean humanity, of which I am a part.
Old 1 week ago
  #3199
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memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
This is the standard and understandable response from someone unfamiliar with the initial conditions, mechanisms, and time available for such a reaction to occur. It's all about probability and opportunity.

Hint: think about Borges Infinite Library as a metaphor for the environment for early proto-lifeforms: quadrillions of reactions per millisecond over billions of years in oceans of precursor chemicals.
thats the schoolbook explanation, I read that as a kid, too, when really we dont know the details yet

it did never happen again in the much longer 3.5 billions of years after the beginning, so some details *are* still missing in the puzzle.

admittedly, earth, atmosphere, climate etc have changed since, but deep sea vulcanoes and such things still exist.

why is there no new life forming?
or, why is all biology chiral?
why are some possible amino acids "missing" in biology?

what did the earliest life forms feed on?
on "oceans of precursor chemicals"? you mean a planet wide soup of amnio acids?
there are actually no traces of that so this is just a guess from the 50ies, and it's probably not the true story.
The questions is, will we ever know? I assume we won't.
Old 1 week ago
  #3200
Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
thats the schoolbook explanation, I read that as a kid, too, when really we dont know the details yet

it did never happen again in the much longer 3.5 billions of years after the beginning, so some details *are* still missing in the puzzle.

admittedly, earth, atmosphere, climate etc have changed since, but deep sea vulcanoes and such things still exist.

why is there no new life forming?
or, why is all biology chiral?
why are some possible amino acids "missing" in biology?

what did the earliest life forms feed on?
on "oceans of precursor chemicals"? you mean a planet wide soup of amnio acids?
there are actually no traces of that so this is just a guess from the 50ies, and it's probably not the true story.
The questions is, will we ever know? I assume we won't.
The metaphor of Borges Infinite Library applied to the spontaneous origins of lifeforms is apt; given enough repetitions (randomly-constructed books) coherent passages of replicatable information emerge. Words, phrases, paragraphs. Chains of molecules.

I see the evidence here on Earth - life itself; and time and opportunity seem more likely than 'aliens.'
Old 1 week ago
  #3201
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memristor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
given enough repetitions (randomly-constructed books) coherent passages of replicatable information emerge. Words, phrases, paragraphs. Chains of molecules.
sure, but chains of molecules aren't enough, and it's no explanation why this happened during some time in the begining but not during the much longer time afterwards, nor does it explain chirality etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I see the evidence here on Earth - life itself; and time and opportunity seem more likely than 'aliens.'
I didnt say "aliens", or extraterrestial origin, I said the process isn't understood in all details yet
(though extraterrestial origin is assumed nowadays)
Old 1 week ago
  #3202
Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
sure, but chains of molecules aren't enough, and it's no explanation why this happened during some time in the begining but not during the much longer time afterwards, nor does it explain chirality etc
The molecules evolved into us humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
...I didnt say "aliens", or extraterrestial origin, I said the process isn't understood in all details yet
(though extraterrestial origin is assumed nowadays)
I didn't say you did but that was the context of my post to tweekyboo (which you responded to).

The problem with panspermia arguments is that the origin is still unaccounted for; my research points to a mechanism for the spontaneous origins of lifeforms (and without invoking the need for, or discounting, supernatural explanations).
Old 1 week ago
  #3203
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
The molecules evolved into us humans.
I think what he is saying is that there is no good reason given why the process of abiogenesis should "stop working" just because some of the descendants of the first examples evolved further. Maybe we just don't have the right "ingredients" lying around anymore. Maybe it we understood the early Earth better we could watch it happen in a lab.

But maybe it was a fantastic fluke.

We may be looking at the question with a very extreme form of Survivorship Bias.
Old 1 week ago
  #3204
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I think what he is saying is that there is no good reason given why the process of abiogenesis should "stop working" just because some of the descendants of the first examples evolved further. Maybe we just don't have the right "ingredients" lying around anymore. Maybe it we understood the early Earth better we could watch it happen in a lab.

But maybe it was a fantastic fluke.

We may be looking at the question with a very extreme form of Survivorship Bias.
Life had to start somewhere...and possession is 9/10ths of the law. To date I don't see any evidence presented of lifeforms anywhere else besides Earth and it's atmosphere.

Rather than 'survivorship bias' I think the issue is anthropocentricism and the inability to consider life as a universal principle based on physics, chemistry, geological time and probability. An evolutionary cosmology applied to Earth but not yet detected elsewhere.

In the context of my original response to tweekyboo: if an extraterrestrial intelligence were to tinker with lifeforms, I think it more likely that they would add a catalyst or enzyme to a pre-existing biological crucible rather than start from scratch. Neal Asher's scenario in The Engineer sci-fi novel is in the ballpark.
Old 1 week ago
  #3205
Gear Maniac
 
tweekyboo's Avatar
 

In the canon of UFO hypothesis, panspermia seems a far more logical hypothesis than that of alien greys with star charts, nordic aliens, or crashed saucers at Roswell.

It does not mean that life did not originate solely on Earth, but as far as theories go, it is far from the worst I have heard.
Old 1 week ago
  #3206
Lives for gear
And why is it aliens never wear clothes? All the reports we have of them are naked midgets.
Old 1 week ago
  #3207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
And why is it aliens never wear clothes? All the reports we have of them are naked midgets.
They have to be un-cloaked to be seen? [/sincere apology for joke quality]
Old 6 days ago
  #3208
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Life had to start somewhere...and possession is 9/10ths of the law. To date I don't see any evidence presented of lifeforms anywhere else besides Earth and it's atmosphere.
And "we're here because we're here" says nothing about whether or not we are alone.

Quote:
Rather than 'survivorship bias' I think the issue is anthropocentricism and the inability to consider life as a universal principle based on physics, chemistry, geological time and probability. An evolutionary cosmology applied to Earth but not yet detected elsewhere.
Many scientists have proposed hypotheses that life is a "universal principle". Even that is an inevitable emergent natural consequence of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. There is however the same amount of evidence for this as for the contrary. Zip.

Quote:
In the context of my original response to tweekyboo: if an extraterrestrial intelligence were to tinker with lifeforms, I think it more likely that they would add a catalyst or enzyme to a pre-existing biological crucible rather than start from scratch. Neal Asher's scenario in The Engineer sci-fi novel is in the ballpark.
my personal favorite theory is that some aliens landed on the infant Earth and took a dump.
Old 6 days ago
  #3209
I'm thinking more about 'convergent evolution' e.g.
Quote:
...The enzymology of proteases provides some of the clearest examples of convergent evolution. These examples reflect the intrinsic chemical constraints on enzymes, leading evolution to converge on equivalent solutions independently and repeatedly.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution
Old 6 days ago
  #3210
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
And why is it aliens never wear clothes? All the reports we have of them are naked midgets.
I always thought they were wearing tight form-fitting seamless suits!

in fact, tight form-fitting seamless suits on humans are often used by film directors to telegraph the idea that these humans are from a technologically advanced "Future".

I personally find the whole idea that Aliens have two arms, two legs, two eyes in a head that sits on top to be kind of arbitrary - and frankly from an entertainment point of view, extremely unimaginative. Never mind what they are wearing or not wearing.

One story I read had the aliens as bizarre shapeless blobs that would horrify any human that encountered them. So the aliens built little grey robots with big eyes to interact with the humans whenever necessary.
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