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Dismissing Torture With Occam's Razor
Old 22nd August 2005
  #1
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Dismissing Torture With Occam's Razor

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Old 22nd August 2005
  #2
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Well observed and greatly describes the common pattern of ignorance.

Reminds me of our war and religion threads.
The guy to the left could be DaveX. heh

Ruphus
Old 22nd August 2005
  #3
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

Too bad there was no freedom of speech back in Genghis Khan's day.
Alexander's picnic in Bactria must've been very nice.
This is the way Humans are. It's those who aren't in power who rave on about injustice an cruelty, but the second they take the power they're faced with the same problems (loss of power) and temptations (abuse of power) as those that they've replaced.
"meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss"
Peter Townsend
and what's he up to now?
Teach your kids how not to become corrupted by temporal gains. I see attacks on contemporary despots as a waste of time, you want to be certain that no one will desire to become like them in the future to make them disappear.
You can't fight for Peace.
Old 22nd August 2005
  #4
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StoneinaPond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7rojo7
.....You can't fight for Peace.
Old 22nd August 2005
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7rojo7
This is the way Humans are.
Humans are variables. Cultural products.

Quote:
It's those who aren't in power who rave on about injustice an cruelty, but the second they take the power they're faced with the same problems (loss of power) and temptations (abuse of power) as those that they've replaced.
"meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss"
Peter Townsend
and what's he up to now?
Observing history won´t make the end of options by all means yet. ( Also besides for adequate weighing the individual examples peripheral circumstances need attention too. That kind of summery does not make a rule yet. )
But considering history can eventually help to learn from the past.
Quote:
Teach your kids how not to become corrupted by temporal gains.
A great thing to do indeed.
Quote:
You can't fight for Peace.
As it is you must.

Ruphus
Old 22nd August 2005
  #6
urumita
 
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You can't fight for peace
you have to start in your small circle and make that circle larger and believe that others will do the same, if that continues the need to be evil for various reasons will deminish and be defeatable without a fight. Any victory for peace is just a defeat of peace in disguise and the pride of having won for peace will become contempt for those who won't recognize this "great accomplishment"
peace as many understand it now is unobtainable.
get peace for yourself first, then give it to someone else, if he understands peace he'll realize that he has it and can share it with someone else and not be greedy and try to keep it for himself.
Old 22nd August 2005
  #7
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Meet the new boss ... same as the old boss!



Extrordinary Rendition ... Free Surprise Vacation!



love it
Old 22nd August 2005
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7rojo7
You can't fight for peace
you have to start in your small circle and make that circle larger and believe that others will do the same, if that continues the need to be evil for various reasons will deminish and be defeatable without a fight. Any victory for peace is just a defeat of peace in disguise and the pride of having won for peace will become contempt for those who won't recognize this "great accomplishment"
peace as many understand it now is unobtainable.
get peace for yourself first, then give it to someone else, if he understands peace he'll realize that he has it and can share it with someone else and not be greedy and try to keep it for himself.
Agreed on that it needs cycling from small to the masses first.
Not agreed that the evil will go away just like that though. Even when the masses change the privileged will not be giving up their super cockaigne for peace sake.

The oligarchs will not let go without engaging all the power they can first. They will course their executives and their privat armies until either those start refusing orders or will be defeated by the people for a bloody price.

The absurd suck off systems that we have let establish won´t allow democracy without opposing it with all the force it has.

That will be huge power and it will be needing entire populations to bear it down. Yet, the conservation works in a subtle way for resources allow, but this will be changing and patent power will be envolved to keep conditions further conservative.

And the unpeacefull, the fights will be happening.
Likely yet when the oceans will be sick, when the landscapes are emptied and when deseases and hunger have reached the childbeds, too late, but it will.

Ethics and peace only come further in slow steps and get thrown back all the time. I doubt they would be winning the race before the ecological crest to safe a survivable environment. But we´ll probably see whether or not, not too far in the future.

The richest continent of creatures, Africa, is being predicted to be forfeit its wildlife and flora in less than 15 years. Guess around that time many things on earth will be coming together already.

Sounds crass, doesn´t it?
Check out 15 years old satellite pics and compare it to current ones.
Things seem so stable only to us.

Haggard menkind can´t survive without the nature it destroys.

Ruphus

PS: If the establishment was clever enough they would change sides rapidly, dig out all the inventions for progressive technology and develop it further, instead of insisting on the Manchester crap of wasting resources and manpower to keep people numbed.

But it seems predictable what they´ll be doing instead.

Just look at the music industry.

They could had lowered CD prices to reasonable amounts, regained the former dream cuts and had even ensured maintenance of their monopol-like system.
But greed despite engagement of the entire industrys intelligence stays short-sighted and slow.

They didn´t want to let go, lost 20% profits and opened the chance for new production and distribution systems, which as healthy competition will be costing them even more and even require restructuring and adaption to the "accident".

That way the people will be coming to hear more versatile and original music.
Old 22nd August 2005
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
....The absurd suck off systems that we have let establish won´t allow democracy without opposing it with all the force it has....
7rojo7 is right. You cannot fight for peace. You can fight for justice, you can fight to overthrow entrenched power bases, but you cannot fight for peace.
Old 22nd August 2005
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneinaPond
7rojo7 is right. You cannot fight for peace. You can fight for justice, you can fight to overthrow entrenched power bases, but you cannot fight for peace.
Apparently incorrect political correctness.

You should had told the buddhist monks I have seen fighting that you knew of a better solution.

When there is no alternative fights will be to come to peace.

And you guys could try to leave the model you are thinking of for a moment.
You are probably thinking of cases like ethnical conflicts where your claims would be true, because a defeated ethnic group would stay in condition and defend itself.

This is a different case from taking the power away from mafia structures. People are way mightier than any mafia.

Seems like you merely can´t think without given conditions, while not picturing a situation superficially desperately different from today.

Ruphus

PS: Just re-read your post. Think to understand it better now. Seems you are relating to direct time / immediate condition, which is not being discussed however. No question that revolting people wouldn´t be in peace with establishment they overthrow.
Old 23rd August 2005
  #11
Gear Addict
 

Ghandi- "I have never advocated passive anything."

Peace is often a struggle- against myself. When I lay down in a street and allow cops to beat me with a club, I struggle for weeks afterward against my urge to (attempt to) beat the crap out of any random cop I see.

Peace is often a struggle- against complacency and ignorance. For every one who will go lie down in the street, 100 more (including myself at times) will wish they did it, cheer it on even, but not do it. There are a 1000 reasons this happens and consciousness must be raised so the 1000 reasons will be noticed as such.

So yes, you can- and must- struggle for peace, if you want it.

"All that is necessary for evil men to triumph, is for good men to do nothing".
Old 23rd August 2005
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
....You should had told the buddhist monks I have seen fighting that you knew of a better solution....
Yes, to go back to the basic teachings. Being a monk does not automatically make an enlightened person.

Following and adhering to the precepts at least illuminates the way.

Old 23rd August 2005
  #13
urumita
 
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Please don't associate me with anyone else who posts here. If someone agrees with what I say, it's their own business.
Peace and justice are 2 different concepts.
Being a martyr for any cause stirs the need for vengence and justice.
Peace needs no martyrs, only practitioners.
It has always been an absurd dream of mine that every so often, all those who've rallied for justice or greed (opposite sides of a coin) would meet in a field of battle somewhere far away and do each other.
I'm aware that this would have to and has happened many times over, as soon as the masculine population reaches the volume of the feminine population (Peacetime ratio M:F 2M:5F PreWarTime > 5F:4M) there's a frenzy. check your studies!
This all makes SF a strange place to live (the outer limits)
What is more more frightening is that there's really no way out from the cycle that we're in, and that except in everyones daily personal decisions to do or not what's asked of them from the seemingly just society in which they live, Pay taxes to govs that steal and abuse them, donate money to enterprises that buy themselves houses on the precepts of curing others hunger etc... There's no reaction to this that can change the situation. And if you try..... you're a reactionist, terrorist looking to disturb society, given whatever name to a cause. SLA for example. And they come to destroy you. If you destroy them you become the new gov.
So, why would someone waste their time, if they were not completely jealous of those that have, so that they could not have themselves, and if they, those that we speak of that don't "have", how would they act any differently from the those who we have spoken of priorly, if they had..
Take a look around you, doesn't it astound you how every generation of humans brings forth heroes and villiains and those inbetween.
I'm not a fan of mediocrity, but I feel that if there were no villain there would be no hero and then we could all live in peace.
Anyway, this is not all possible because there are too many uneducated people in the world and too many educated people in the world and not enough of any of those too many people who want to live LOVE. which is what's necessary to have PEACE,
so forget about it
I have a beard so I don't need that razor
Old 24th August 2005
  #14
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Stoney,

ideals are to lead, some can´t just be realized any way, any time I think.
I think Mr. Generic has contributed greatly to the matter with a suting example from a man whop understood very well how peace makes sense.

Hi 7,

I don´t know if I can be too reasonable and concentrated today. Have been pretty desolate the last two days, hoping yesterday morning, unsure in the evening, went out drinking in the night and dreaded again when returned home and I still don´t know if a good frined of mine will make it through.
He is a cat. An incredibly lovely being.

I think I can hear the best intentions from what you say.
But there seems resignation too. Lumping of the protesting with the suppressing and ...

Hey, the golden rule of "in between" counts only sometimes. Many times it´s just a half chewed ... mediocrity, yes.

Since WW II it has become all fashionable to put any "extremes" on the same value, which might sound sophisticated but is simply undigested claim.

Not saying, you were on that fashion, just mentioning it to express a general annoyance to me.

Completely agreed on the F/ M thing. The tendency due to chemical environment and reanimated archaics is towards overweight of males and that for certain does no good.

To reduce social critisism on jelousy however is pretty ordinary and not on par in my opinion to the other reasonable insights you expressed.
Very different level of ratio.

Man, there is enough ethical basement that could do it without such simplicistic motivation for realizing what´s up. Ordinary interpretation just discredits a lot of hard earned consciousness and sincere goodwill out there I think.

Anyway, asking for a stop of insanity without question is just resonable and worth it. In fact the only way to go.

Accompanying global career, merely peace-wishing makes a practical wipe-away for the definite instances in power. In the same time prevents zero tendency of injustice.

We have guys like our Logan from Canada who had their heads smashed and been risking their lives while standing up for their consciousness. Spirits like these in the past have been a major contribution to what brought us the legacy we have.

Without preceding outstanding courage from ethical rebells we´d all be running around with remote collars granted nothing.

It is not only that civil courage was the most productive to personal rights, but that you cannot rid yourself of established utilization only by keeping peace.
Because there are situatitions of "peace" which would be meaning peace towards circumstances against you. There is the peace of self-destruction.

Like say a sit down strike against a combine harvester or a flood or ...
There are situations better to move.
Sure, resistance would be best when public is requesting it, but public gets ready rarely while people like mentioned above stand by their insights yet when peace being rejected by established execution, without looking back after public shelter.

The people who go demonstrating and for instance oppose redneck meetings, eventhough knowing that the police will be threshing on the side of the right wing by default and be brutal at it, are invaluably fine individuals taking the rap for the awareness they obviously have.

They over time have pathed the way for many of us to live in much better environment than in discriminating societies of e.g. just 30 years ago.

It wasn´t always doable in peace, but they did what they felt they had to do. Some might have a teeth, an eye or a life less today, but their senseful attitude won´t inflate.

Peace is an ideal and it´s great when it can be had.
I would be first to ask for it.

I am looking at my dizzy cat back from the doctor. He alone already is the perfect example for deserved peace. It doesn´t get more innocent anywhere in the universe.

Why must he come to suffering desease only because the fodder industry thinks the prices weren´t enough for granting high life already and that they had to put mureatic acid treated connective tissue in the cans instead of meat?

That is offence.

Fraud is offence.
Purloining of power is offence.
Steal of lifetime is offence.
Steal of vision and information is offence.

Beneficiaries won´t comply to peace it seems. They do not care whether people try to resist in peace or not.
If they cared peace could work.

Ruphus
Old 24th August 2005
  #15
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Ruphus,

Am I to understand that your cat is not well?

Sorry to hear that.

You mention some chemical being used in cat food?

If it's time, it is time. Rest easy, friend.
Old 24th August 2005
  #16
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Hi Stoney,

I used to think commercial fodder to be most healthy. Seems that was industrially spread desinformation.

The doctor told me how the fodder is being made.
He says the manufacturers would be paid by the meat industry to remove the unusable waste, being all kind of connective tissue and skin and hair.
This stuff is completly useless, it wouldn´t even be digested.

Thus they pre-acid it with hydrochloric acid to make it pass the digestive tract. ( He says sometimes they would forget to neutralize the acid and causing immediate suffering for so many pets.)

Then they put in some milk powder, carbon hydrates and stuff and fill the crap into cans.

This stuff besides of diverse troubles also leads to the extreme teeth tartar common these days which leads to a lot of pain, food abstinence, loss of teeth and infections.

The doctor says that veterinarians are facing many deseases now since 15 years for exactly such useless fodder.
However, most would not point to the problem for the industry operating just the same bribery procedures and dependencies like being conducted in the human medicine sector.

According to him most practices were depending these days on the fodder industry politics.

... Guess I should make a separte thread for this, so that more people shall hear about it.

Ruphus
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