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republicans and christians pls comment
Old 4th August 2005
  #31
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyRip
I am sorry, but Bush is not God. Why you would liken his role as president in a democracy to the power of God, whom I believe created the world and oversees everything in it, is beyond me. I never even said a word about Bush in this thread.
Oh not you!

My point is that in the same way that Christianity teaches trust in God, without proof ... Faith ...

Bush's politics require trust in Bush, as the Father's knows best of America.


There is a parallel in how Bush sees HIMSELF in relation to truth, as there is to how Christians judge each other and understand God.

Faith is a beautiful thing, but it has no place in politics. Faith, like taste, is personal. And a free government should not be making laws based on TASTE, or forcing your taste/faith on me.

America is supposed to PROTECT thr MINORITY faiths, the minority tastes, from the majority ... as long as no physical harm comes from it. So if my taste is murder, that's not allowed. But if my taste is paganism, America is behind me and any true AMERICAN should support me.


Christinity teaches that we must try to convert our neighbors, and Democracy is not like that. We must PROTECT our neighbors from each others power.



The Statue of Liberty does not say "give us your rich, white, male, power hungry Christians, and their sympathisers."


Faith is personal and BIGGER than politics. Politics is more about Civics than Religioius Values. Similarly the Presidency is not a rock star job, it's Civil Servant #1. Like a police officer is really just the guy to give you directions when you're lost, not just there to arrest you. Civil SERVICE is the basis of the Executive branch that the presidency and police fall under. Now it's POWER and ENFORCMENT.


Politics is UNDER Religion in importance to individuals, I agree with Christians here .. yet making laws in the Bibles or the Korans image is 100% wrong. Even the founders, mostly Christians, got that much.

And they REALLY got it!
Old 4th August 2005
  #32
Gear Addict
 
TyRip's Avatar
 

OK, much better now. I didn't really get that at all the first time around, but it seems like you were more upset during your previous post.

I definitely see where you are coming from and I agree with just about everything you said in this post.

However, it is impossible to not have your own ideas and feelings come into play when you are the one making decisions. I am not defending Bush, but I know I would have a heck of a time not letting any of my personal beliefs effect how I made decisions, even if it is for more people than myself. I do think Bush is taking this too far though, and I agree that it seems as though more and more his Christianity is turning into the only thing that people are still hanging onto, and I do not know, but it does seem like there is a good possibility of him taking advantage of the trust people place in him because of his faith.

I definitely think that most of the laws that came into being from our founding fathers reflected a strong faith as well though. I think they were just better men and knew how far and exactly where to bring that faith into the new America.
Old 4th August 2005
  #33
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyRip
However, it is impossible to not have your own ideas and feelings come into play when you are the one making decisions.
We can try. There's a big difference between trying and not trying.


Quote:
I definitely think that most of the laws that came into being from our founding fathers reflected a strong faith as well though. I think they were just better men and knew how far and exactly where to bring that faith into the new America.
Only 2 laws reflect the 10 commandments, theft and murder. And most cultures have these values, Christian or not.

The founders Christianity allowed them to see how important it was to NOT let personal bias effect PUBLIC policy. I'm glad they were relligious so they could do what Communist leaders could not do ... protect from it, not write it off.

To say "well they were Christian so it's a Christian nation at heart" as many do it 100% false.

Amendment 1 clarified Article 6 ... the only places in the Constitution that refer to religion. Clearly they wanted freedom FROM religion.

They disbanded the State supported churches that had existed in the Colonies, they disbanded any sense of a State Religion for the first time in the History of the World.

Do you get this? ... America is revolutionary as we are the first country in European heritage with no state religion AND no monarcy.




And today?

A Bush family monarcy with full Christian Wing support, funding and initiatives.

These people have no shame, and no patriotism. They are usurping American values with Christian values for power and profit. Christ would not approve of maniplation of the weak minded in this way.
Old 4th August 2005
  #34
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
My point is that in the same way that Christianity teaches trust in God, without proof ... Faith ...

Bush's politics require trust in Bush, as the Father's knows best of America.


There is a parallel in how Bush sees HIMSELF in relation to truth, as there is to how Christians judge each other and understand God.
Nicely put. We are seeing the victory of faith over reason.
Old 4th August 2005
  #35
Gear Maniac
 
cultureofgreed's Avatar
 

I have a theory. I can't prove this but I think that it makes at least a bit of sense.

In the 33 or so years since Roe V Wade was decided the Republicans have held the presidency in all but 12 years. That’s almost 70% of the time. In that large majority of the time Republican presidents have been choosing Supreme Court nominees and those nominees, as all presidential nominations; have about a 96%+ acceptance rate. Thus we must assume that if the Republican actually really wanted to overturn Roe V Wade it should have been possible.

Protestants make up about 56% of the US population, of then only about 25% call themselves evangelicals and are the most vocal about ending Roe V Wade.

My theory is this the religious right is being tricked, hoodwinked, took and had by the Republican party that has never had any intention of ending the Roe V Wade decision, but instead giving these group soft restrictions and lip service to keep their votes in the pocket.

What is the reason? If the Republicans ever overturn Roe V Wade not only would they upset the majority of Americans that support it, what guarantee do they have that the religious right would continue to support them? Roe V Wade is the carrot that the GOP uses to guide the vote of the religious vote and losing that vote by actually ending Roe V Wade may be a risk that is too great.
Old 4th August 2005
  #36
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cultureofgreed
If the Republicans ever overturn Roe V Wade not only would they upset the majority of Americans that support it, what guarantee do they have that the religious right would continue to support them? Roe V Wade is the carrot that the GOP uses to guide the vote of the religious vote and losing that vote by actually ending Roe V Wade may be a risk that is too great.
Interesting.





How many people vote Republican on that issue alone? Lots.
Old 4th August 2005
  #37
Lives for gear
 
tunesmith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cultureofgreed

What is the reason? If the Republicans ever overturn Roe V Wade not only would they upset the majority of Americans that support it, what guarantee do they have that the religious right would continue to support them? Roe V Wade is the carrot that the GOP uses to guide the vote of the religious vote and losing that vote by actually ending Roe V Wade may be a risk that is too great.

That's a great theory...
Old 4th August 2005
  #38
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
There are several carrots that get dangled in front of the religious right come election time. Abortion, gay marriage, culture wars, etc. In fact, few groups have been as consistently manipulated as the religious right have. Their hot button issues are easy to push to get them worked up.

Let us not forget that the Republican party used to be the party of civil rights, and it was the Democrats that had the Christian vote (Dixiecrat party anyone?) Somewhere along the way the GOP realized that they could have it both ways by remaining pro business AND courting the Christian "values" voter, even though a large number of them were lower income.

To their credit (or blame depending on your POV), the GOP understands far better than the Democrats the power of branding, marketing and sales. Because that's what it's all about today. Sales, not service.
Old 4th August 2005
  #39
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRobb
Bush just said he thought Intelligent Design should be taught in science classes in public schools. That means he does not understand the meaning of the word "science".
Very few people seem to have enough of an understanding of both science and religion FROM EXPERIENCE to realize there is no conflict at all. This is being exploited big-time.
Old 4th August 2005
  #40
jordan19
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
Very few people seem to have enough of an understanding of both science and religion to realize there is no conflict at all. This is being exploited big-time.
Ah. Finally, someone else says it
Old 4th August 2005
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
cultureofgreed's Avatar
 

I have always thought that creationism should be taught in public school the day that evolution is taught in Sunday-school.
Old 5th August 2005
  #42
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyRip
I don't think anyone here has taken the "if you love Jesus you will vote Republican" stance. To be honest, I used to think like that, and I know a lot of people still think like that, but I realize how stupid that is now.
last election WAS based upon that stance... it didnt dawn on me until the next day and i was driving looking at signs in front of churches how evident it really was... and then speaking with more and more "christians" and causing them to "slip" things their preachers had said only backed it up more.

maybe no one on this thread.... but a LOT of people in the US did. elections based on FEAR, which the church has had a LOT of practice preaching. hell, damnation, homophobia, and then we had 9/11 repeated over and over... and terror level alerts when bush's points went down. keep the people in FEAR and you control the people.
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