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Hip Hop (diss or defend it here so we dont have to read it elswhere)
Old 12th July 2005
  #1
no ssl yet 
Guest
Hip Hop (diss or defend it here so we dont have to read it elswhere)

Guys I'm getting tired of the growing sentiment that hip hop is the LCD of music around this site. I'm also getting tired of people blaming hip hop for the images in hip hop instead of the major label machine. I have constantly heard that commercial hip hop is not music on GS, and I have also heard that rappers choose the images that are in their videos not the Clive Davis'

Many here have discussed how the only view of blacks around the world is the stereotypical views presented in hip hop. This has led to some pretty strange racial tensions even on GS. So I propose we discuss these views here ONLY. I dont care if you like it/dislike it, support it/diss it, think its music/think its trash. Please express your views here. I am creating this place for such discussion, so that it does not get into other parts of Gearslutz. I think we are all pretty good people here and alot of time is wasted on not fully understanding one's views. so can we please vent them here. (since alot of recent posts prove the need for discussion.)


My personal view

It is irresponsible to blame hip hop for the impression folk have of black people around the globe. The reasons for why there are no positive black images as readily promoted should be considered. When Sammy Davis was wearing suits and diamonds, he was not viewed as the "way " black people are. When Bill Cosby was on television wearing colorful sweaters, why was he not viewed as the "way " black people are. Why is it people choose to look at hip hop this way.

I think major labels are responsible for current hip hop and its state. Alot of the rappers that u guys have heard and spoke with disdain for, come from the underbelly of society. Why is it people dont see that if you go to the lower parts of society and find/seek/search for music to promote into stardom, that the genre is not responsible for the views or stereotypes perpetuated.

There are plenty of historically black Universities. Plenty of educated black people. PLENTY of these people are song writers, and some of them are hip hop artists with differing songs/viewpoints. THE MUSIC OF THESE INDIVIDUALS IS NOT PROMOTED LIKE THE OTHER images. Should we include them in the blame of the current state of hip hop? Could it be that Major labels seek particular images to perpetuate? If so it would not be the first time that particular images of black people were purposely perpetuated. (Also during those past errors people sought to not to hold the machine responsible)

Also has nobody noticed HIP HOP and Rnb have been combined into one set of charts. Is this fair??? HONESTLY should Snoop Dog/50 cent be on the same chart with Anita Baker/Luther Vandross

For those that dont view hip hop as music or believe it corrupts the youth, I invite you to research the history of Jazz music. Jazz also has a history of cultural attack. The nostalgia of Jazz hides its gritty roots. Jazz was viewed in the '20s and '30s as "Jungle music" Jazz was knocked as sexual music. In fact there has never been a form of black music that was not originally attacked by the masses. Blues, Jazz,RnB, and soul music have all been viewed as indecent immoral and corupting the youth.. Bebop was once hip hop my friends.

I think many have an elitist view that what they listen to is music while hip hop is not. Many argue that it takes no musical talent to be a hip hop artist. I invite all of those that think it is so easy to make some hip hop songs and post them. IF it requires no talent and is sooo easy then surely these folks should be able to come up with something.

Would there be any concern for hip hop if it wasnt as profitable as it is? Why is it given sooo much attention. If I dont like something, I dont listen to it. I dont knock it as not being music. I'm not a fan of TEchno, metal , or country. But I respect all of them as musical forms that others like. Why is the same respect not given to those that like hip hop?
Old 12th July 2005
  #2
Lives for gear
 

IMO...ignore these old foogies cuz like you said this happens with every new music that comes out...so who cares what they think?
Old 12th July 2005
  #3
Thumbs up

I contend that the pop Hip Hop arena is where the most cutting edge sonic creations are emerging from these days.

I agree it IS a shame for folks to call it non music, and I feel those people ARE disconnected, alienated and in denial. You just have to visit a major label office to see that, hip hop people are spinning the revolving doors faster than rock people. It's HUGE business..

you can sing it, you can tap your feet to it - it's music!

However, it's not too hard to understand the roots of alienation, when you have some gangsta rap lyrics that get across messages like,

"Me and my friends are going to rape your girlfriend, and her girlfriends, and we will be back to do it again tomorrow and the next day too"

- that's just going to piss some people off......... ......for good!

See below for reference

http://chnm.gmu.edu/rhr/article2.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/gangsta-rap

Granted, heavy metal has it's gruesome side lyrically, but the absurd devil worship side to some of it just doesn't seem to be as easy to understand on first listen as some hard core gansta rap..

Moving on from HOW a devide might exist.........

.... I am 100% keen for rap engineer and producers to be more active on this site, am all for GS being a welcome place for ALL types of recording engineers & producers and I fully support this thread.



Jules
Gearslutz.com admin
Old 12th July 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

If people like it (millions) It must be very good.

That's the only conclusion I can come up with any sort of music that doesn't move me.

And it's always very nice to see hot women on tv.
Old 12th July 2005
  #5
Lives for gear
 
ttauri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Also has nobody noticed HIP HOP and Rnb have been combined into one set of charts. Is this fair??? HONESTLY should Snoop Dog/50 cent be on the same chart with Anita Baker/Luther Vandross
Personally, as I said elsewhere, I tend to think they have combined more or less. Used to sense more of a difference between production styles than I do now (I mean, used to be that basically the whole rap community was stridently saying they WEREN'T R&B--"real hip-hop, not no new jack swing" to quote Phife--whereas now it's maybe some underground folks claiming that divide.).

My serious feeling is that 50 years from now, the only thing that hip-hop will be able to claim in the popular mindset is that it has a rapper instead of a singer. All the production stuff will have been absorbed. (Maybe even not that, seeing the way folks like Andre, Cee-Lo, Devin pass into singing frequently.) Not strident enough in my older age to say it's a bad thing for sure, but something that really powered my love of hip-hop has been lost.

Quote:
I'm not a fan of TEchno, metal , or country. But I respect all of them as musical forms that others like. Why is the same respect not given to those that like hip hop?
Well....

Peece,
T. Tauri
Old 12th July 2005
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Anything that gets as popular as hip hop is now is going to get slammed by people. People who claim hip hop isn´t music instantly descredit themselves. I must say that currently hip hop is looking like what glam rock looked like in the 80´s, way overdone, excesively cheesy, and becoming a cliché of itself.
The big difference is that hip hop is a culture and will remain so, and glam rock was... well just glam rock. I think hip hop will eventually crash and then level out and remain a huge force in the music industry. Like it or not, hip hop is here forever as a legitmate form of "music".
Old 13th July 2005
  #7
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

rap has simply devolved into its LCD... happens with everything once it becomes commercial. just becomes watered down fodder for the masses. kinda like current emo is to punk, rap is to hip hop.

i dont think its a reflection on black culture but capatalistic culture.

although p ****ty isnt doing a whole lotta good for the representation of black culture... its just bad idea after bad idea.
Old 14th July 2005
  #8
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

1. I sometimes hear people say rap is 'not musical'. As if rhythm isn't as valuable a component of music as melody is.

2. There's krap in every genre. Don't blame all who make up that genre (and genres are B.S. anyhoo.)

3. As a white guy who lives to make music, I usually feel that I was born with a disadvantage that I must fight everyday. A quick browse of my record collection says I'm not alone.

4. If you're over a certain age, the music that kids are listening to SHOULD irritate you, otherwise it's no good (remember?)

5. The desired effect is what you get when you improve your Interplanetary Funksmanship.
Old 14th July 2005
  #9
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I'm not sure if I ever got around to posting this before but it seems even more appropriate here. So often the congregation is arguing the merits of the sermon vs. the hymns! Some rap is pure poetry and some is indeed little more that a minstrel show. Same thing's true of singing.

About the race thing, American popular music is entirely the product of the students of music teachers in the southeastern US who were the descendants of slaves from West Africa. These students were BOTH black kids and poor white kids. (The rich kids got sent to the conservatory.) I think American music is powerful because these teachers managed to fuse the common threads of all of the world's music into something universal. We are all equally entitled to own what is truly OUR music but we also must never forget about the generations of unsung musical and spiritual geniuses who made it possible for all of us to come together and celebrate our common humanity. The fact that they remain unsung is an act of ongoing racism.

Racism, besides being stupid, is all about the boss telling the light-skinned help that they are better than the dark-skinned help because they look a bit more like the boss. This is done to divide and thus control "the help."

Motown was aggressively integrated racially. We refused to let the racists divide us. Expansion of one's identity is the source of all real power for everybody.
Old 14th July 2005
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
Vari-Mu's Avatar
 

More wise words from Bob O.


Best


Vari-Mu
Old 15th July 2005
  #11
no ssl yet 
Guest
Bob the great

I call u Bob the great, because whenever you post something it is a reminder of what I like about this place.

I truly appreciate your many wise words
Old 15th July 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
When Sammy Davis was wearing suits and diamonds, he was not viewed as the "way " black people are. When Bill Cosby was on television wearing colorful sweaters, why was he not viewed as the "way " black people are. Why is it people choose to look at hip hop this way?
I don't have a complete answer to your thought-provoking question, but I do have an observation that may be germane:

When Sammy Davis was wearing suits and diamonds, I suspect he was not viewed as the "way " black people are because there weren't a whole lot of other folks (black *or* white) running around in suits & diamonds trying to look/be like Sammy; that became his very personal unique identity.

Likewise, when Bill Cosby was on television wearing colorful sweaters, I suspect he was not viewed as the "way " black people are because there weren't a whole lot of other folks (black *or* white) running around in colored sweaters trying to look/be like Bill; that became his very personal unique identity.

Now, do I have to tell you how many kids (black *and* white) I see every single day walking around the streets of this fair city dressed like they bought their entire wardrobe from the Yo! MTV Raps catalog? "Urban Thug" has become a style, a fashion statement, that completely dominates the casual attire of today's youth. And NONE of them seem to care that the oversized b-ball shirts, the baggy jeans, the baseball caps, and all the bling-bling are about as unique as an off-the-rack halloween costume from K-Mart. It's like they all drank the Kool-Aid; they all want to look/be like ________________ (insert name of famous gangsta rapper) and they don't seem to care that by embracing this fashion statement so completely they essentially present themselves as undifferentiated.

It's narrow-minded at best, and overt racism at worst, to conclude that hip-hop is the "way " black people are. But, at least here in NYC, it's a simple empirical observation to note that hip-hop (fashion) is the "way " (many) black people are (dressed).

And then it's trivial to see how human nature can make some folks forget about all those parenthetical qualifiers and wind up back at the narrow-minded/racist conclusion.
Old 15th July 2005
  #13
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet

For those that dont view hip hop as music or believe it corrupts the youth, I invite you to research the history of Jazz music. Jazz also has a history of cultural attack. The nostalgia of Jazz hides its gritty roots. Jazz was viewed in the '20s and '30s as "Jungle music" Jazz was knocked as sexual music. In fact there has never been a form of black music that was not originally attacked by the masses. Blues, Jazz,RnB, and soul music have all been viewed as indecent immoral and corupting the youth.. Bebop was once hip hop my friends.
well, imo as a student of the music, this comparison only goes so far. first, jazz was, from practically the outset, viewed as a highly technical and original extension of the western musical tradition inherited from the european greats.

brahms, for example, was said to be enthralled w. the prejazz syncopations of the gottschalk era.

by 1924, there was already a classical/jazz masterpiece from a jewish composer (george gershwin); this piece remains extremely popular even to this day. and in the 30's duke ellington, who was the most glamorous and eloquent man on the scene, was highly praised for his orchestrations and harmonies, not just his rhythms.

further, look at the history of jazz. the first jazz recording was 1917 (by an all-white group, btw); within 30 years, gillespie, parker, powell, etc. (i.e. the beboppers) changed the music radically, but how? through expanding the tonal pallette to include the harmonies used by western composers such as debussy, ravel, and stravinsky, and infusing it with swing and improvisation, the hallmarks of jazz.

jazz had very original composers that could "speak" without saying anything. monk is a prime example. jazz had virtuoso musicians who mastered western instruments; bernstein, toscannini, horowitz and rubinstein were regulars on 52nd street where art tatum was holding forth nightly.

hip hop, really, has nothing like that. by 1943 (26 years after the first hip hop recording) duke ellington premiered "black brown and beige; a tone parallel to the history of the negro in america" at carnegie hall, w. luminaries such as stokowski, eleanor roosevelt, and marian anderson in attendance.

if you place the first hip hop recordings in the late 70's, that means we're already 35 years into it; does anyone forsee a longform concert piece in hip hop composed by, say, dj premier or prince paul, held at carnegie hall and attended by john elliot gardner, hillary clinton, and leontyne price?

hip hop and jazz share only the most superficial of comparisons; a hip hopper who loops a ron carter sample or an art blakey riff may boast that he's contributing to and extending the proud history of african american music, but ask a true jazz musician what he thinks a live music show w. an mc and a dat machine have done to black music. (but don't ask the one who's getting the royalties from the sample... heh heh)

true, jazz musicians encountered racism and were not understood by middle american society. BUT, jazz was not anti-intellectual like hip hop is. listen to an interview w. duke ellington; he sounds like a college professor even though he never went beyond high school. compare him, and his knowledge of music history, and his acumen at theory, harmony, etc., w. whoever you want from the hip hop era... then tell me that jazz was grandpa's hiphop...
Old 15th July 2005
  #14
jordan19 
Guest
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
well, imo as a student of the music, this comparison only goes so far. first, jazz was, from practically the outset, viewed as a highly technical and original extension of the western musical tradition inherited from the european greats.

brahms, for example, was said to be enthralled w. the prejazz syncopations of the gottschalk era.

by 1924, there was already a classical/jazz masterpiece from a jewish composer (george gershwin); this piece remains extremely popular even to this day. and in the 30's duke ellington, who was the most glamorous and eloquent man on the scene, was highly praised for his orchestrations and harmonies, not just his rhythms.

further, look at the history of jazz. the first jazz recording was 1917 (by an all-white group, btw); within 30 years, gillespie, parker, powell, etc. (i.e. the beboppers) changed the music radically, but how? through expanding the tonal pallette to include the harmonies used by western composers such as debussy, ravel, and stravinsky, and infusing it with swing and improvisation, the hallmarks of jazz.

jazz had very original composers that could "speak" without saying anything. monk is a prime example. jazz had virtuoso musicians who mastered western instruments; bernstein, toscannini, horowitz and rubinstein were regulars on 52nd street where art tatum was holding forth nightly.

hip hop, really, has nothing like that. by 1943 (26 years after the first hip hop recording) duke ellington premiered "black brown and beige; a tone parallel to the history of the negro in america" at carnegie hall, w. luminaries such as stokowski, eleanor roosevelt, and marian anderson in attendance.

if you place the first hip hop recordings in the late 70's, that means we're already 35 years into it; does anyone forsee a longform concert piece in hip hop composed by, say, dj premier or prince paul, held at carnegie hall and attended by john elliot gardner, hillary clinton, and leontyne price?

hip hop and jazz share only the most superficial of comparisons; a hip hopper who loops a ron carter sample or an art blakey riff may boast that he's contributing to and extending the proud history of african american music, but ask a true jazz musician what he thinks a live music show w. an mc and a dat machine have done to black music. (but don't ask the one who's getting the royalties from the sample... heh heh)

true, jazz musicians encountered racism and were not understood by middle american society. BUT, jazz was not anti-intellectual like hip hop is. listen to an interview w. duke ellington; he sounds like a college professor even though he never went beyond high school. compare him, and his knowledge of music history, and his acumen at theory, harmony, etc., w. whoever you want from the hip hop era... then tell me that jazz was grandpa's hiphop...
i said many of the exact same things that you just said to No SSL Yet on another thread. you nailed it better than i did lol. technically and harmonically jazz is a quantum leap from hip-hop- and not just avante garde stuff. transcribing charlie parker solos by hand is a painstaking reminder of the genius in the meticulous phrasing shaped in those improvisational lines. you can't compare complexity on that level to simplicity on the level that hip-hop is sitting at currently.
Old 15th July 2005
  #15
Gear Nut
 
jkshort's Avatar
 

Calling hip hop anti intellectual isn't really fair. MAINSTREAM hip hop yes. But most fans would argue that isn't even hip hop. Artists like chuck d, krs one, mos def (he ryhmed "nationwide projects" with "prison industry complex" in the song mathematics!) are definately intellectual.

Hip Hop used to have a much higher level of discussion. As the music grew in mainstream popularity through the 90's record labels started signing more and more acts that conformed to the stereo types of black people. You have to remember...most of mainstream hiphop's fanbase now is young suburban white males and they buy into this stereo type too. someone like p-diddy or 50 cent is far less threatening to the maninstream establishment than someone like chuck d. chuck is calling for a revolution while 50 cent fits nicely into peoples preconcieved notions of how a young male urban black should act.

It's sad that the mainstream hip hop artists have completely sold out themselves and their communities like this for a few bucks. can you imagine any of these acts doing a song like PE's 'black steel in the hour of chaos' now? can you imagine an act even getting signed these days that wrote a song like that (a revenge fantasy about a black draft dogger that refuses to fight for the 'man', goes to jail and leads a prison riot/escape).
Old 15th July 2005
  #16
jordan19 
Guest
KRS One? The rapper who claimed that "african americans cheered when 9/11 happened" ?????

What an intellectual. (Read the story anywhere online.)

(I agree on mos def. Like his stuff.)
Old 15th July 2005
  #17
Gear Nut
 
jkshort's Avatar
 

Hey....didn't say I agreed with everything krs-one has said. But at least he is talking about something political and attempting to generate some discussion and not just how big his car is or how many chicks he bagged last night.
Old 15th July 2005
  #18
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i'm glad to be reminded of how beautful "black brown and beige" is........
especially, for me "come sunday", Mahalia rocks..........
to me, staying positive hip hop is a palette, i can't see the painting yet.

i don't hear any hip hop artist even 1/10th of the Duke or Mahalia

i'd like to think they'll come - again, i am willing to believe that i don't get to hear
the best stuff because of record companies etc......personally i have met russell
simmons several times and the man is limited - rich, famous, heroic , imo -
limited

the notion of racism in this is somewhat ludicrous because of the sheer adulation
that previous generations of african-american musicians brought about
with their hard work and the music they made

i mean, Duke Ellington, i saw a friend of mine's 16 piece half black half white
band play some duke songs on tuesday night! it kicked ass ! great players
playing great music! 0 bling

i love "it takes a nation of millions" and i love the de la song "eye know"
and i love a couple of snoop songs - i think he's got great rythym and dre's production is great -
they still have never made the killer record start to finish imo....

listen to " Black , Brown and Beige" - that will be available 100 years from now -
very little rap will make that journey

i have had the good fortune to record a bunch of older players who have recorded
with miles, mingus, coleman hawkins, roy eldridge, etc......
i really only talked in depth about music, to one of them, warren, he liked the framed picture of marvin i had on the wall.....he was worried about what the young people
were doing with music.........

maybe i'll change my mind later
i bought the first mary j blige record last year which i hated when it came out -
i love it now

be well

- jack
Old 15th July 2005
  #19
Gear Nut
 
jkshort's Avatar
 

russel simmons is a record industry mogul. he at one point may have had something to with hiphop as oppossed to pop music but he is about as relevant to real hip hop culture today as michael jackson is to rythymn and blues or soul or kenny g is to jazz.
His name was made popularizing hip hop culture to the mainstream via various def jam artists but wth the exception of public enemy they haven't really been a cutting edge type of label.

adulation for black artists or not racism is very real today in popular culture and society in general.
Old 15th July 2005
  #20
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

the racism i spoke of refered only to the taste for hip-hop
obviously, racism still exists....
that being said some of the music world i have witnessed here in nyc
does have a beautiful bubble outside of that.....
2 musicians often have a lot in common..........

be well

- jack
Old 15th July 2005
  #21
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkshort
Calling hip hop anti intellectual isn't really fair. MAINSTREAM hip hop yes. But most fans would argue that isn't even hip hop. Artists like chuck d, krs one, mos def (he ryhmed "nationwide projects" with "prison industry complex" in the song mathematics!) are definately intellectual.

didn't mean to say "anti-intellectual" in sociological or political terms, but in purely musical terms. rhyming isn't really the same as playing an instrument. edgar allen poe could rhyme, too, but as far as i know, he wasn't a musician.

let me also say that i know some hip hop *music* (seperate from rap) is phenomonal, some of the producers/musicians are fantastic, some have changed the style of music production dramatically.

but on the whole, hip hop is not really a musical movement as much as a political/sociological/economic movement. the same could be said, with few exceptions, about rock music, especially for the last 25 years... i mean, is green day really moving music theory forward?

(ps i also find this "mainstream/underground" dichotomy kind of silly. hard to find a hip hop artist more "mainstream" than mos def... seeing as he a movie star, does guest lyrics for r&b divas, and you can hear his tracks on commercials for nike etc.)
Old 15th July 2005
  #22
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
Motown was aggressively integrated racially. We refused to let the racists divide us. Expansion of one's identity is the source of all real power for everybody.



Beautiful Bob ...

Or as I've said elsewhere ... who's the "me" or the "we" or the "Us" or the "Our" ? How wide do we define our identity?

Knowledge is a key to this, but knowledge without understanding is worthless.
Old 15th July 2005
  #23
jordan19 
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane

(ps i also find this "mainstream/underground" dichotomy kind of silly. hard to find a hip hop artist more "mainstream" than mos def... seeing as he a movie star, does guest lyrics for r&b divas, and you can hear his tracks on commercials for nike etc.)
lol good point. i just like some of the stuff he's put out. but i don't buy in to this "underground rap is where it's at" idea, because i've heard plenty of the underground stuff and it's not anything groundbreaking.

i'm gettin into foreign rap though heh . dig the accents. and it's more of an electronica feel which is probably why i can get into it more.

anyway, i don't have anything against hip-hop at this point. i just don't think it should be compared to jazz. it's sort of like comparing pre-algebra to trigonometry. they're both mathematical, but on completely different levels. (sorry to compare music to mathematics... just seems like an appropriate analogy.)

now, is anyone here up to going to see Hustle and Flow?? heh ... i hear the movie is about a "sympathetic pimp"
Old 15th July 2005
  #24
Gear Nut
 
jkshort's Avatar
 

when i talk mainstream vs. underground I'm really just refering to if you see them on MTV alot and if they get played on major radio stations. the vast majority of mos def's music for example would never be found in those areas. I do find it funny these days that you can find more cutting edge music in a car or shoe commerical than you can on corporate airways or on MTV. (I've heard some pretty cool electronic music in north american car commercials but it's very hard to find on the airwaves...)

JAzz could be considered more underground than hip hop under that definition- which i would agree with!

I have never understood the comparison of hip hop and jazz either. There are a few very superficial similarites but they are very different kettles of fish (why don't we ditch the math metaphors for aquatic ones now-LOL).

I've always thought in attitude it was closer to punk. In your face. About the attitude and song not the musicianship. Anti establishment etc. Alot of the great 'underground' acts these days are kind of getting into the whole DIY 80's punk rock ethic too. I'm still waiting for the hip hop equivalent to fugazi though!

Joey Ramone (RIP) did an interview in the late 80s where he stated hip hop was the new punk rock. Which makes some sense....NWA would take over for the sex pistols and Public Enemy for the clash.
Old 15th July 2005
  #25
no ssl yet 
Guest
You guys

READ MY FIRST POST

You all are avoiding my point. I'm not saying that Jazz and hip hop should be compared on the level of complexity or musicianship. I"m Saying something entirely different that everyone is avoiding. The view of hip hop as corrupting the youth and its bashing by society is the EXACT same view that people had of Jazz. As I stated the nostalgia for Jazz causes people to forget its gritty roots.


The disdain for rap/hip hop culture that people seem to have is the exact same as what society had for Jazz. Jazz was viewed as overly sexual "jungle music"

Defending/comparing the complexity of the music is pointless here becase that doesnt speak to the topic
Old 15th July 2005
  #26
no ssl yet 
Guest
First off

Allow me to define some things that you guys may not know.

HIP HOP is a culture

Rap is a form of music that happens to be part of the hip hop culture. The attemp to divide music into rap and hip hop is devisive. So is the attempt to place R&B and Rap on the same chart.

There are no HIP HOP artists. All rappers are part of hip hop culture
Old 15th July 2005
  #27
no ssl yet 
Guest
What I dont understand

The focus guys have on hurling insults while discussing there dislike of rap. When I'm asked if I like country. I simply say that its not particularly the music that I listen to. I DONT say that it is not music or it requires no talent, or its so simple anyone could do it. OK you dont like it, dont listen to it. But because you dont like it/or understand it, doesnt discredit it.



KRS1 Is very much an intellectual IMO (yes, I've met him and had discussions with him)
Old 15th July 2005
  #28
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet

The disdain for hip hop culture that people seem to have is the exact same as what society had for Jazz. Jazz was viewed as overly sexual "jungle music"


Way too much generalization. Who is this "society" you speak of? Were you around in the 40s/50s to say that now is "the exact same?" My dad is white, and he's loved jazz since he was a kid. Born in Toledo in 1935. And he has no interest in hip hop, and finds the separatist element you like distasteful. So what?

Did you not read the post from the guy who said the jazz players he knew did not respect hip hop? Is Winton Marsalis a racist, or an idiot for speaking against things he doesnt like or respect?

Why is it not okay with you for some musicians to not respect a style and for some music fans to not feel it and enjoy it?




Maybe you want to defend your preferred genre as if it's the new jazz, and it's not. It is what it is. Not the new ____ or the next ____ .

As for the negativity, many people will OBVIOUSLY be turned off by ANY seperatist genre. EXPECT IT. Accept it. Revel in it. A Separatist doesnt give a fuk.

If we want to be separate we will NOT be loved by most in a country built on a melting pot concept. Obviously.

The concept of America is bigger than the reality. Get it? It's not about what was it's about what the dream is. I have a dream ... that one day they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their chatracter.




I'm more intersted in reading a POSITIVE view from you or others as a lifetime lover of the genre, not an argument why you say it's getting a bad rap (haha!).

Tell us why you love it. Make someone believe or at least open their ears.
Old 16th July 2005
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
well, imo as a student of the music, this comparison only goes so far. first, jazz was, from practically the outset, viewed as a highly technical and original extension of the western musical tradition inherited from the european greats.

brahms, for example, was said to be enthralled w. the prejazz syncopations of the gottschalk era.

by 1924, there was already a classical/jazz masterpiece from a jewish composer (george gershwin); this piece remains extremely popular even to this day. and in the 30's duke ellington, who was the most glamorous and eloquent man on the scene, was highly praised for his orchestrations and harmonies, not just his rhythms.

further, look at the history of jazz. the first jazz recording was 1917 (by an all-white group, btw); within 30 years, gillespie, parker, powell, etc. (i.e. the beboppers) changed the music radically, but how? through expanding the tonal pallette to include the harmonies used by western composers such as debussy, ravel, and stravinsky, and infusing it with swing and improvisation, the hallmarks of jazz.

jazz had very original composers that could "speak" without saying anything. monk is a prime example. jazz had virtuoso musicians who mastered western instruments; bernstein, toscannini, horowitz and rubinstein were regulars on 52nd street where art tatum was holding forth nightly.

hip hop, really, has nothing like that. by 1943 (26 years after the first hip hop recording) duke ellington premiered "black brown and beige; a tone parallel to the history of the negro in america" at carnegie hall, w. luminaries such as stokowski, eleanor roosevelt, and marian anderson in attendance.

if you place the first hip hop recordings in the late 70's, that means we're already 35 years into it; does anyone forsee a longform concert piece in hip hop composed by, say, dj premier or prince paul, held at carnegie hall and attended by john elliot gardner, hillary clinton, and leontyne price?

hip hop and jazz share only the most superficial of comparisons; a hip hopper who loops a ron carter sample or an art blakey riff may boast that he's contributing to and extending the proud history of african american music, but ask a true jazz musician what he thinks a live music show w. an mc and a dat machine have done to black music. (but don't ask the one who's getting the royalties from the sample... heh heh)

true, jazz musicians encountered racism and were not understood by middle american society. BUT, jazz was not anti-intellectual like hip hop is. listen to an interview w. duke ellington; he sounds like a college professor even though he never went beyond high school. compare him, and his knowledge of music history, and his acumen at theory, harmony, etc., w. whoever you want from the hip hop era... then tell me that jazz was grandpa's hiphop...

The Emcees "Tongue"(words/lyrics) are our Horns today, thats the only difference IMHO. A great emcee can make a verse about typing on the internet on the spot not pre written with perfect cadence to any beat and make it sound great just like when Louie Armstrong would 'freak' his horn after singing verses. Those great emcees just usually aren't signed to major labels and if they are the label(or they) don't want to rap like that cuz the label won't push it and/or feel it won't sell.

Its really not that easy to rhyme over a beat & 'sound cool'...thats why all rappers don't sound the same.
Old 16th July 2005
  #30
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teacher
The Emcees "Tongue"(words/lyrics) are our Horns today, thats the only difference IMHO. A great emcee can make a verse about typing on the internet on the spot not pre written with perfect cadence to any beat and make it sound great just like when Louie Armstrong would 'freak' his horn after singing verses. Those great emcees just usually aren't signed to major labels and if they are the label(or they) don't want to rap like that cuz the label won't push it and/or feel it won't sell.

Its really not that easy to rhyme over a beat & 'sound cool'...thats why all rappers don't sound the same.
this is what i meant by "anti-intellectual." agreed that rapping is not easy. BUT, you don't have to take lessons to get started doing it. almost all jazz musicians had extensive training on their instrument (either privately or through school programs);

if you can't play your horn, it's pretty obvious to everyone. no one who couldn't play the horn made any money as a horn player (and yes, that includes kenny g... he CAN play...) yet how many people have been popping their necks to such and such rapper only to find out from "true heads" that this bling bling mc "can't rap."

now, i've seen/heard chali2na, mc supernatural, etc. freestyle on the spot, and it's pretty impressive. it obviously requires alot of practice. but it's STILL not the same thing as playing an instrument, which requires another layer of discipline/study on top of natural talent.
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