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Hip Hop (diss or defend it here so we dont have to read it elswhere)
Old 20th July 2005
  #211
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
well all the complexities you mention above are not worth a cent if the song is not "singular" enough. (whatever that means ) : )

right;

it's easy to make a complex song, if u have training...

it's hard to make a "good" "singular" song... w. training or without...

see, we really luv each other...

(btw, the songs i would consider my best songs, and the songs that have gotten me the most positive feedback from fans/buyers are not the same... funny how that works sometimes...)
Old 20th July 2005
  #212
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
folks, lets be honest...........song creatations are reputatious.
can i use that as my signature?

or will i have to pay a sampling fee?
Old 20th July 2005
  #213
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
right;

it's easy to make a complex song, if u have training...

it's hard to make a "good" "singular" song... w. training or without...

see, we really luv each other...
ofcourse we do : )

I do have much respect for people who do the complexitys you talk about. My hat is of to you, and Jordan who have studied and dominate music theory, and harmony and stuff.. that **** is hard. I took 5 years piano I used to be like you. Calling pop, and crap like that simple. And then I realized it's much harder than what I thought, and after 13 years or so of writing songs, everytime I listen to Yesterday, my jaw drops. It drops harder with time, and I think i'm capable of saying, music theory is HARD. And to writethe complexitys you talk about for things such as a film score. Oh man that stuff is truly hard. But writing yesterday, i believe is harder. that's it : )
Old 20th July 2005
  #214
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

But guys......what makes one better than the other? Shouldnt it be more of a choice of music preference of the 10 people in the room?? IF you brought in 10 more people, might their preference be different?

I remember listening to an mp3 of a french artist. I didnt know what the hell she was saying but the groove and melody was sweet.

Just think of that hit song, the one you never liked and still don't like, but still it was a hit to other folks.
Old 20th July 2005
  #215
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
can i use that as my signature?

or will i have to pay a sampling fee?

LMBAO.........dude I'm getting old man.......lol

no charge
Old 20th July 2005
  #216
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane

(btw, the songs i would consider my best songs, and the songs that have gotten me the most positive feedback from fans/buyers are not the same... funny how that works sometimes...)
it works like that most of the time. (not that i have many fans, maybe my dog is my only true fan ) but... I'm willing to bet you discredit the songs your fans like because they were easier for you to have them done with not much turn around or thinking is what i'm trying to say. I read that Paul wrote yesterday in his dreams, woke up the next morning and spitted it out like nothing. He probably feels the same way about that song to.
Old 20th July 2005
  #217
jordan19 
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
can i use that as my signature?

or will i have to pay a sampling fee?
*gagging laughing so hard*

and i thought the guy who inspired my signature was funny
Old 20th July 2005
  #218
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
But guys......what makes one better than the other? Shouldnt it be more of a choice of music preference of the 10 people in the room?? IF you brought in 10 more people, might their preference be different?
nothing makes it better than another really. I chose to define good music from bad by the amount of people who like it versus the amount of people who dislike it. I never heard anyone say how much Yesterday sucks. NEVER. It must be a good song.
Old 20th July 2005
  #219
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
I read that Paul wrote yesterday in his dreams, woke up the next morning and spitted it out like nothing. He probably feels the same way about that song to.
heh so it that Sleep-Writing or Write-dreaming?
Old 20th July 2005
  #220
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
heh so it that Sleep-Writing or Write-dreaming?

I don't know but I dream of writing a song like that hahaha
Old 20th July 2005
  #221
jordan19 
Guest
sorry soultrane heh heh

i gotta use that man. that's just priceless. (we'll have to share this signature lol)
Old 20th July 2005
  #222
jordan19 
Guest
boyz II men did a version of Yesterday.

they're some weird guys, but they sound tight.
Old 20th July 2005
  #223
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
I don't know but I dream of writing a song like that hahaha

same here.....now that would be "singular"............lol
Old 20th July 2005
  #224
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

For the money / artist aspect a couple more examples that I know of:

First of all our beloved Nina Simone.
Next, Melanie, an incredible singer gave up on the peak of her career, because she was fed up from the commerial system.
And then there is my admired friend Mr. J.J.Cale who is on the very top of songwriters and who has been covered by more famous acts than any other artist. He still gigs over 200 times a year in bars ( if I´m not mistaken ) and not rich.
Though could easily be. There have been attempts to pull him more into the spotlight, but he escaped. He likes it humble.

Oh, ... and not to forget Charly Parker who could have certainly ended up very differently if cash had been all he cared for.

Having said that, the background doesn´t matter to me whether a lightweight tone maker strives for the stage because of money or for image causes, the liveliness of the music counts to me.

For instance Dylan. I believe that his career had quite some to do with money, ( and that his protest lyrics didn´t really suit well with his stockings on weapon industries, BTW ). I also think that McCartney isn´t exactly an idealist etc.

But Dylan´s music without doubt can move a soul through demanding characteristics and McCartney´s too.

So bring on questionably motivated artists as long as they have capabilities. They might be in the minority among the talented, but if they could produce good stuff why not.

Admitted, even the completely up-side down way of an approach can work to a certain degree. Like with Madonna. She went her way initially through blow jobs from what I know and had original singing abilities like a crow. Now, throughout the years after tons of autotuning she has obviously improved on singing ( besides of song writing which I estimate she has never done ) somewhat through learning by doing.

But side by side with a really talented singer she would still sound like a crow.

The market meanwhile didn´t care. It ate what was delivered, so her bank account mustn´t care for what the primare skill of the career has been.

Sorry for bad English.

Ruphus
Old 20th July 2005
  #225
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Just wanted to add something for the gear oriented people. If 10 out of 10 people think the great river pre, is a great pre. (Nobody in this board pissed all over them) then it's probably a good pre. Yes some people prefer others on certain things, etc.. but nobody dislikes it ? See ? that is how I view music as well. : )
Old 20th July 2005
  #226
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Just wanted to add something for the gear oriented people. If 10 out of 10 people think the great river pre, is a great pre. (Nobody in this board pissed all over them) then it's probably a good pre. Yes some people prefer others on certain things, etc.. but nobody dislikes it ? See ? that is how I view music as well. : )
same here


Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19
sorry soultrane heh heh

i gotta use that man. that's just priceless. (we'll have to share this signature lol)
P.S.
and the world adds another ass to its collection...free of charge and Dart, i'm really starting to understand what u mean..........
Old 20th July 2005
  #227
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
same here.....now that would be "singular"............lol
Very! Now I know why Bell south is now singular hahahahaha
Old 20th July 2005
  #228
jordan19 
Guest
catherine zeta jones is hot. (She does the singular commercials right?)
Old 20th July 2005
  #229
no ssl yet 
Guest
elitist bull****

I resent this statement

"But that's the problem with most of you hip-hop guys. It's all business. You're hustlers, going for the quick dollar everywhere. So if you view music simply as a business, then you're right; the dollar is everything."

Has it ever occured to you that the guys going for a quick dollar arent hip hop guys?????Maybe its another group that saw the potential for selling in this genre

Man anyone who puts out a record does it to sell UNITS. This is the MUSIC BUSINESS. You guys can sit around with your eletist attitudes but they dont work on me. I studied the same 5 lines and 4 spaces as you all. I have most of the same jazz CDs in my collection, yet I understand hip hop. Does this say that I have no imagination
or that I dont have imagination in the minds of the guys on gearslutz LOL.

Is a song deemed "complex" only if it cant be played by beginners??? Hell Several Beatles tunes can be learned by beginners. THAT DOESNT MEAN they can create it.


Doesnt mean the creator wasnt a genius
Old 20th July 2005
  #230
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

man he not hearing you or me..................so like i said before

Quote:
and the world adds another ass to its collection......free of charge
Old 20th July 2005
  #231
no ssl yet 
Guest
NO wonder I havent been reading

I quote"yesterday" is one of the most complex songs ever created?

do u play an instrument?

i can teach a beginning student how to play yesterday on the piano, with the original chords and in the original key, within 3 months of lessons; i've done this many times.

luckily, we don't stop studying the instrument after they've mastered "yesterday." because they're still a good 12 months of solid practice away from being able to play "stardust" or "stella by starlight..."
__________________
LOrd something has to be complex to be a work of genius.

You guys belittle hip hop, and seem to think anything that is distributed and marketed well will be a big hit. IF YOU BELIEVE THIS YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE MUSIC BIZ. We have seen plenty of well promoted flops.

I think I see the problem. Some of you guys are the musical "truth" the small sect that sees the faults in society. when 10 of 10 people like a song, they must be simple people because to anyone with a musical background YOU have superior talents

LOL YOU just have nothing anyone wants to buy.

WHERE DO I sign up for the starving artist club??

THOSE who can do it, DO
Those who are scared become teachers
Those who cant become critics
Old 20th July 2005
  #232
jordan19 
Guest
Quote:
and the world adds another ass to its collection...free of charge
lol nukmusic don't take it personally, that quote is just too much man lol.

SSL: nukmusic said EVERYTHING COMES DOWN TO THE DOLLAR. <------- that's the only reason i said what i did. nukmusic is a hip-hopper isn't he? or is he behind the scenes pulling strings? c'mon SSL.

you know honestly, i don't have anything against hip-hop. jose is probably the most neutral here, considering the fact he'll never bash hip-hop yet he's not exactly a fan of it. but deep down i agree with him. music is complete 100% personality driven, and we're all a bunch of different personalities here.

the bottom line: there are plenty of hip-hop guys that are more musical than a lot of proud condescending trained classical musicians who sit and stare at a page reading notes all day. they couldn't improvise if their life depended on it...

so musicality doesn't go hand in hand with technicalities. with hip-hop, you either FEEL IT, or you don't. the same can't be said for classical music; there are plenty of classical musicians just going through the motions bored out of their minds. i know plenty of them lol.

so that's my position on hip-hop. maybe i give rap a hard time because they're an easy target. trained musicians tend to be like that sometimes lol.
Old 20th July 2005
  #233
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

angelina jolie is singular.
Old 20th July 2005
  #234
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
THOSE who can do it, DO
Those who are scared become teachers
Those who cant become critics
I like that very much : )
Old 20th July 2005
  #235
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I have most of the same jazz CDs in my collection, yet I understand hip hop. Does this say that I have no imagination
or that I dont have imagination in the minds of the guys on gearslutz LOL.
Consider that we are about general relations of composers / generators, products and consuments.

If you can appreciate skillfully made tunes and still like repetitive musik then you belong to the exception. Nobody, at least not me, doubts on that possible configuration, but it is a minor occurance by nature of the matter.

This has also been shown by my personal experiences. Kids grown up with repetitive stuff seem uncapable of absorbing what makes beauty in music. They will all make an exception for one or another song, but generally they are musically frigid.

Same the other way around. Only few of the people I met who knew how to make music would care about hihop or techno.

Generally the appreciation of repetitive music and demanding one doesn´t combine even if individuals make exceptions on the rule.

It´s just like with other things. Once you discovered what good tobacco gives you just can´t enjoy Philip Morris sticks. Some certainly still would, but rather not.

Ruphus
Old 20th July 2005
  #236
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
I like that very much : )
So then start some thoughtful critics, besides of when it is about defending Israel.

Ruphus
Old 20th July 2005
  #237
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
ofcourse we do : )

I do have much respect for people who do the complexitys you talk about. My hat is of to you, and Jordan who have studied and dominate music theory, and harmony and stuff.. that **** is hard. I took 5 years piano I used to be like you. Calling pop, and crap like that simple. And then I realized it's much harder than what I thought, and after 13 years or so of writing songs, everytime I listen to Yesterday, my jaw drops. It drops harder with time, and I think i'm capable of saying, music theory is HARD. And to writethe complexitys you talk about for things such as a film score. Oh man that stuff is truly hard. But writing yesterday, i believe is harder. that's it : )
right!

well, i was getting a doctorate in classical piano and left to move into "pop" music... hiphop, acid jazz, dance, primarily...

for a doctoral level classical student, studying retrogade tone rows and translating boethius' analysis of aristoxian tetrachords, etc., john coltrane's "ascensions" is a move towards simplicity.

when i left, my teacher said, "go... i have confidence you'll be one guy who will not forget where true quality is."

i thought, this teacher doesn't *really* know what he's saying because i was already aware of the complexities and difficulties of pop music, hidden from those who look at a piece only like gershwin's father as portrayed in the movie "rhapsody in blue" i.e., by its length. he would check his watch and say, "24 minutes! this is a great piece!"

i now come to see that my teacher DID have a point.

classical music is a time capsule to the past, a different day and time. i rate bebop of the 40's as the mozartian classical music of the 20th century...

when as an esteemed professional as bob ohlsson says he's never known a musician who didn't put monetary considerations to the fore, it is shocking to me coming from an academic background.

if js bach, who wrote 60 minutes of original music for 30 musicians in a style so fantastic and complex that it is still STUDIED by brilliant theorticians 355 years after his death, WEEKLY for a 2 year stretch, was alive today, he would be making something like the equivalent of $40,000 a year; mid to low mid... and he had a BIG family.

i used to argue that capitalism was good for music, since it introduced a competition factor; certainly this is true in music production equipment...

but it has not been good for the training of musicians/advancement of the art of music...

we have tremendous tools that bach and beethoven could only dream of. we have a tremendous history and legacy to look back on and more opportunities for study then they ever had. and we channel all our energy into the 3.5 minute pop song hoping to make some mechanicals/ascap money.

we can't even be troubled w. melody, but we slap a dangerous/sexy/controversial/ otherwise titilating"lyric" on it.

our generation.
Old 20th July 2005
  #238
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Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
So then start some thoughtful critics, besides of when it is about defending Israel.

Ruphus
And you should DO, what you got to DO! write a book : )
Old 20th July 2005
  #239
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek
And you should DO, what you got to DO! write a book : )
Already accomplished.
Got good critiques by persons in the know, but the marketing was weak. heh

Ruphus
Old 20th July 2005
  #240
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet

THOSE who can do it, DO
Those who are scared become teachers
Those who cant become critics
i believe this is the most bs quote of all...

those who can't do it, can't teach it. (most teachers)
those who can do it and don't teach it, don't care about the future. (most artists)
everyone's a critic.

i own a dance label.
i have international distribution.
i am on 2nd and 3rd pressings of 12" vinyl... (try it. w. vinyl market as it is now)
i am moving units...

now can i express my opinion?

this whole argument can be summed up in 3 sentences;

pro hiphop; WE MAKE MONEY
con hiphop; what does that prove?
pro hiphop; WE MAKE MONEY
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