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Hip Hop (diss or defend it here so we dont have to read it elswhere)
Old 18th July 2005
  #151
jordan19 
Guest
Well I agree with ya. (Although it's gonna take some serious motivation to turn my music into ringtones... *shutters*) I wouldn't have a problem writing jingles, or licensing my music for commercials... I only fly the artsy banner so high. I think music is life, and life is a collection of experiences and emotions on many different levels. So personally I don't see that stuff through a "purist" lens.

In response to your last post on the 5th page, I like a lot of your ideas and statements. My question to you though, is whether or not you would deny the fact that gangster rap romanticizes the drug-dealing gun-toting lifestyle. Your argument about crack is spot on. But I see a conflict between those statements and the argument that you made on another thread where you said that hip-hop shouldn't have to shoulder responsibility for anything because commercial hip-hop is entertainment. (I remember the post... I can quote it to you, although I'd have to go back and find it.)

I agree that hip-hop shouldn't be BLAMED for things that go on everyday in the inner city, because hell, crime, rapes, drugs, gangs... that's been going on since before hip-hop was around. BUT, I would think that now that blacks have such a strong voice in pop culture, (they dominate sports and music charts and are rising in movie popularity as well,) that they'd participate more strongly in discouraging gang violence, rather than using their position to romanticize it and promote it through musical means. (50 and his G-Unit, Tupac, Biggie, Suge, list goes on forever.)

And Tupac was just confusing as hell. On one album he'd have a song rapping with a serious message, "...politicans, they don't want to listen..." and on the next track you might hear him completely contradict anything he said earlier and start going off on this thug ****. The guy was smart... some of his published poetry was pretty interesting. But he just tossed a lot of his wisdom in exchange for his later records' bull****.
Old 18th July 2005
  #152
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

We've got to look at the roots of the crack problem too.

In the 1950s hundreds of thousands of sharecroppers were thrown out on the street homeless because of the introduction of mechanical harvesting. Child labor laws, unemployment benefits and Social Security doesn't exist for farm workers.

People fled to their relatives' homes in the cities. Real estate interests responded to this influx by getting legislation passed that condemned and tore down most of our cities' large family working class housing while at the same time preventing blacks from seeking housing in the suburbs. The result was people sleeping in shifts on beds in tenements. The kids could only look forward to every cent they could possibly earn needing to be used to support endless relatives who had no education or job skills.

Hustling on the street selling dope to the kids in the suburbs while not telling your family about the money became an attractive lifestyle as did becoming a single mom and moving out because now you had your own responsibilities.
Old 18th July 2005
  #153
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Someone needs to let children know its ok to be children. When I was younger, I would practice scales for hours, work on my jumpshot for hours, read books for hours, etc....

I had interests. Children today seem to have none on the surface, but if you take time out to spend with children, you will learn that they are not beyond repair.

Each one, teach one
Now youre talking ... Parenting.

It's a bigger job than anything out there. And it's the best place to start to curb the wave of injustice.

So if we care about the children and the future, where are the appropriate male authority figures?


Children feel safe and can explore their innocence around good authority ... when there is none they grow up too quickly on the outside - acting cool and superficially mature.

Ward 9 in N.O., white friends moving into a black neighborhood ... and the kids passing on bikes .. ages 7-12 ... looking at the goods ... saying "Hey, where's mine?"

Who will show them that stuff is not riches and that this behaviour is not only rude, but combative and alienating to their potential new friends?

Accepting there are major injustices sytem wide, who can measure what opportnities are missed everyday?
Old 18th July 2005
  #154
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I'm definately NOT saying that funding for music should come before learning to read, but it is unfair to simply say we have a cultural problem where parents would rather sue teachers then get upset about children learning to read.

Across the nation when public schools were integrated, there was decreased funding for public education.Ïast FWd, and What we have is undereducated parents trying to educate their children.
no ssl yet.. i would like to see your stats on that, because my figures show the exact opposite; according to the washington center, in 1960, the us spent an average of $2235 per year per student (inflation adjusted); in 2000, that figure was $7591. that's 3x's more per student, and remember, these figures are inflation adjusted.

2 recent illustrations; the five year old kid who was throwing a temper tantrum and the school called the police. and, the lady who called 911 because her 12 year old was throwing a tantrum... the guy on the other end said, "what should we do, come and shoot her?"

admittedly, the authorities did not handle these situations optimally; but the fact that the parents took action against the authorities instead of taking a leather strap to their kids' butts and saying "sorry for bothering you" is indicative of a real problem in education in this country.

i teach alot, and i can tell immediately whether a kid is going to learn or not... it depends on the attitude of his parents; one little kid gave me some sass, and his dad, a doctor, overheard him... he came storming in the room, and his dad said to me, "if he ever talks to you like that again, smack him across the mouth."

other parents complain because we have competitions or recitals... they don't want to put their kids under any stress whatsoever.

one thing you have to come to grips w. is the korean or vietnamese family who comes to america; the parents can barely speak 5 words of intelligble english, but they are dam sure their kids are highly literate...

the school can not teach your kids, bottom line, if the family doesn't get involved, you can spend $100k per kid and the situation will not improve...

and u really can't make this a race issue, as if the white man is out to make the black man dumb... why would the white man go out of his way to do this? how does it help the white man to have fatherless black teens playing hookie from school and hanging out at the mall?

and, not only that, i work w. alot of cats (and kittens) from howard u... they are highly educated, wealthy, and smart as anyone from harvard or anyplace else... making a dam site more money than me.... how did *they* do it?
Old 18th July 2005
  #155
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soultrane's Avatar
ps i will bet anyone here that this will not work

http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,...969790,00.html
Old 18th July 2005
  #156
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
when I spoke of directly selling CDs to folk, someone chimed in that it would be alot of work. But is it really work if you get to support yourself and be self employed by your talents??
That someone suggested an alternative which would be a lot of work too, but could be much more paying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Where there is a will, there is a way
An old saying.
Unfortunately completely wrong.
To be correct its must be going like: Where there is visualisation there is a way.

With only little will, but vision things can be made.
With no vision the biggest will on earth won´t help.

Good that you mentioned it. It´s about time to get that commonly straight already. It would bring a lot of relieve and success to anywhere, but especially in pedagogics.


Ruphus
Old 18th July 2005
  #157
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
ps i will bet anyone here that this will not work

http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,...969790,00.html

Hooked on Ebonics?
Old 19th July 2005
  #158
Here for the gear
 
Phil Gates's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
phil gates;

i hear some of what u say but on this point i disagree...
to learn the keyboard, u don't need a "fancy grand piano."
u need a $50 casio and a lady from the block to teach u...

(for less than what a playstation rig costs, u can get a keyboard today that will blow the doors off a roland d50 or a yamaha dx7 or kurzweil k250 for that matter)

the reason kids don't learn to play piano is NOT because they can't afford a keyboard, it's because they don't want to sit and practice, and because the family structure isn't there for the parents to MAKE them practice...

a turntable as an instrument? kind of. but mostly what a turntable does is play music performed by people who CAN play instruments.

when u say hiphop kids can't play instruments because they were too poor, u assume louis armstrong or charlie parker were rich?

i know for a fact i can find church musicians exactly your age w. exactly your economic status who can play, SERIOUSLY...

lack of money aint the reason johnny can't read... music.....

and ps... when a kid w. a bit of talent can sit at a keyboard and pick out the string lines for 50 cent, ja rule, and lil john in an afternoon, he's gotta wonder what's the point in keyboard lessons anyway?

hiphop has set the bar amazingly LOW....

disagree?

I Agree 100%...

My Point Was That In The Beginnings Of Hip Hop Culture There Was A Hunger To Learn Something Many Of Us Were Not Exposed To...

I Began In Hip Hop As A Dancer... And To This Day Still Dance With Breeze Team BDP... (Which Have Been Dancing And Performing With KRS, Etc...)
And I've Seen Some Of The Most Amazing Kids Do Some Amazing Feats...
Not Knowing Anything About Gymnastics...
Maybe They Could Have Gotten A Gymnastic Scholarship Right... WRONG...

One Of The Best Dancers Was A Kid Named Kamel, Who Was My Partner For Some Time...
Moms Was Locked Up, Father Died... He Was 15 At The Time...
Maybe We Can Tell Him Something About HIP HOP... NOT.

What I Was Refering To In That Statement Was That YES There Are Opportunities EVERYWHERE To Learn Anything...

The TRUE ESSENCE Of HIP HOP Was That WE MADE OUR OWN...

Not Saying That Others cultures, etc. Haven't... Because That Is A Main Ingredient Of Success...

There Are 5th Generation Street Performers Who Are AMAZING But Because Of What They Are Exposed To, Many Don't Get Farther Than The Block...

This Is Noones Fault But Our Own, But Cultures Don't Spawn Overnite...

30/40/50/ Some Odd Years May Seem Long, But Really Isn't.

I've ALWAYS Felt That One Of The Most MAJOR Flaws In Hip Hop Was There Were No Boundaries, No Rules, No Foundation...

Since When Can RKelly Run Sh*T In Tha Hip Hop Joints... We Used 2 See That F*g Street Perform In The Train Station... And Who The F*ck Is Gonna Tell Me Usher Is A D*mn Hip Hop Dancer...

Yes I Do Feel Your Point 100%, But That Is Why The Culture HAS To Win Back The Audience From The Industry... Because There IS TALENT... But All We See Is Chingy...
We Need To Show People The REAL Talent.
But Many Are So Brainwashed They Couldn't Tell Kool G Rap From Little Jon(Just That One Got More $$$ So Of Course They'd Take His Word For It.)

My Whole Point Is We Need That Hunger To Learn and Be TRULY Innovative BACK...
And I Don't Mean Whispering On F*ckin Tracks...

When We Had Less Opportunities WE STRIVED To Be Better... But Dealed The Cards We Were Dealt...

It's Hard To Explain Coming From My Standpoint Because:
1. It Is My Opinion.
And 2. Not Everyone Was Exposed To The Deep Inner Layers Of The Hip Hop Culture...

There Is Some AMAZING Talent Out There, Just Not Always On MTV Or BET.

But This Is A Problem In The Music Industry And Business As A Whole...

People Think We Wear Baggy Clothes And Backpacks To Look Cool Cause That's What You See... Not The Spray Cans And Meanstreaks In The Bags... And The Ripped Pants At The Crib From Doing Windmills And Tracks...(Back Then Of Course)

Oh And Kamel now Dances For Missy Elliot, Nas, Etc. And You Can See Him In Many Videos And Shows All Over The World... Hell Of A Way To Make Somethin Out Of "Not Much", Hey... Some Little N*gga In Tha BX... Now In Manhattan Makin Somethin From What He Loves... REAL.

Give Us Some Respect Is I Think Is All Many Of Us REALLY Care About... That's What It Was About... That's Why We Used To Have The Biggest Chains... Because People Siad We Weren't Supposed To.
(It Just Got A Tad Outta Hand With The F*ckin Bling Ish...
...a.k.a. People Started To Forget To Have Talent.).

Hip Hop Evolved From Many Things And Is Still Growing, Good AND Bad.

Either Way, It DESERVES It's Respect both as A Culture AND An Art Form.

But I Do Agree Hip Hop Must RAISE The Bar...
Or At Least Put In The Front Lines Those Who HAVE.
Old 19th July 2005
  #159
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gates
But I Do Agree Hip Hop Must RAISE The Bar...
Or At Least Put In The Front Lines Those Who HAVE.
Welcome to success.

White rock sucks too, and it doesnt have to either ... that's just mass market Commerce working.


LCD all the way to the bank. Offend as few as posible, just enough to be seen as cool.
Old 19th July 2005
  #160
Gear Nut
 

Thank u..Phil Gates..100% agreed...
Old 19th July 2005
  #161
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
right phil gates!!! agreed...

but we need to blame the musicians/artists, ultimately..

it is not just the hiphop musicians... it is also the jazz musicians who have let jazz be watered down into smooth jazz...

when the "wave" formats first premiered, i thought they were pretty cool, playing, as they did, keith jarrett, pat metheny "james" etc. etc. it quickly devolved into the worlds worst format; a format not to be listened to but to be played in the background of offices while paperwork is done...

but, lots of jazz cats are falling all over themselves to play 1/50th of what they know, just to get on the radio...
Old 19th July 2005
  #162
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
... it is also the jazz musicians who have let jazz be watered down into smooth jazz...
The musicians had little or nothing to do with it although they lost the advertising studio gigs that had been their bread and butter during the '50s, '60s and '70s. The generation of the '80s and later have had it much harder economically.

"Smooth Jazz" is an interesting story. It's really classic "easy listening" or "lounge" music but that label had developed such "square" implications that the music stopped selling. It was found, quite by accident, that if you put a glossy coffee table book cover on it and called it "jazz," people will buy it because they were no longer embarrassed to be seen with such recordings lying around their houses!
Old 19th July 2005
  #163
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
"Smooth Jazz" is an interesting story. It's really classic "easy listening" or "lounge" music but that label had developed such "square" implications that the music stopped selling. It was found, quite by accident, that if you put a glossy coffee table book cover on it and called it "jazz," people will buy it because they were no longer embarrassed to be seen with such recordings lying around their houses!

bob, i don't understand what you are saying... are u saying that boney james/rick braun are the musical sons of percy faith, esquivel and the montovani strings?

ps at the wmc this year, their was a panel of smooth jazz execs; they are now trying to bring smooth jazz into the umbrella of "downtempo"; cats like dave koz are jumping on this formerly hip dj driven bandwagon (kruder and dorfmesiter, dimitri from paris, etc...) and putting out compilatons inspired by the cafe del mar / buddah bar series..
Old 19th July 2005
  #164
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

The most glossy jazz cover that I have seen must have been from Grover Washington, but I havn´t seen many. From what I know of him he has made basically one good piece which he themed more or less later on. It´s a very nice piece though.

This other guy here has made many a great pieces before the nice covers.

Listen to it and tell me how you can lump something that has about the same beats and approach from start to end, and that since almost thirty years now with an organic vibe and variation like jazz, good jazz like the following.

Don´t you hear that it is light years apart from anything hiphop or whatever called style might have been invented in the past decades?


Ruphus

I´m dead sure that Charly wouldn´t mind me showing his work as it can only generate interest about criteria and maybe some cents in return for whomever has the rights these days.
Attached Files

Jazz. banks.mp3 (5.02 MB, 53 views)

Old 19th July 2005
  #165
Lives for gear
 
nukmusic's Avatar
 

What can folks do to make school fun again??

extracurricular programs made school fun. I know for sure that when i was in school, many cats stayed in school because of the band programs, football, basketball. Everybody seeks some kind of benefit from everything, no matter what it is.
Old 19th July 2005
  #166
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
bob, i don't understand what you are saying... are u saying that boney james/rick braun are the musical sons of percy faith, esquivel and the montovani strings?...
It began as the equivalent audience. Don't forget that Percy Faith, Esquivel and Montovani were all colossally talented musicians even though the music they are associated with was not challenging to listeners.

Certainly everybody wants to see every style's audience grow musically.
Old 19th July 2005
  #167
Lives for gear
now this is about the hairdresser who went out to make music to be played in his friends' saloons..
http://www.g-stoned.com/
heh my regular barber is a good friend of K heh
he has a record out (maybe limited exclusive) where he tries to play 70ies going electro sound
(like jon lords solo projects et al) with total ITB production...

ITB hammond, ITB piano, D6, ..ouch!
Old 19th July 2005
  #168
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
but we need to blame the musicians/artists, ultimately..

I dont think we need to blame ... i think we need to be honest about WHAT we do and WHY we do it.

What's the motivation and intentions of a music?
Old 19th July 2005
  #169
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
I dont we need to blame ... i think we need to be honest about WHAT we do and WHY we do it.

What's the motivation and intentions of a music?
point is, nobody can *make* u record what u don't want to...

the greatest musicians in history, as it seems to me, avoided putting marketplace considerations at the forefront, generally speaking...

or, put it another way, they wouldn't record music they didn't want/like/respect solely to turn a dollar...

too many have lost the sense of music as a craft/vocation/art that should be respected, and look at it in terms of a best chance to make quick money-sex-power...

i think of the time ray charles was on arsenio hall;

arsenio; what do u think about rap?
ray; (pause); well, i like singing.

arsenio; u have said you'd rather be great than famous. what does this mean.
ray; when i was growing up, there was a cat called art tatum. he probably never sold more than 50,000 records, but those in the know knew he was the greatest pianist in the world. i would trade everything i've done in music to be able to play like art tatum. that's what i meant...
Old 19th July 2005
  #170
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane

i think of the time ray charles was on arsenio hall;

arsenio; what do u think about rap?
ray; (pause); well, i like singing.

arsenio; u have said you'd rather be great than famous. what does this mean.
ray; when i was growing up, there was a cat called art tatum. he probably never sold more than 50,000 records, but those in the know knew he was the greatest pianist in the world. i would trade everything i've done in music to be able to play like art tatum. that's what i meant...
nice ...



Commerce and excessive Subjectivity (as a way to make everyone feel equal and bolster insecurity) has ruined "greatness" as a concept. Greatness and equality are opposing concepts. Subjectivity and greatness are opposing views of the world.

Having one's ass kicked musically. as a humbling moment, requires a sense of greatness ... and if it hurts, it helps. In a culture with a fear of hurt, you'll have no greatness as a result .

Today what's great to most people of influence is what sells, and the musicians have become part of the problem. White, black and green.



When there is no truth, there is no greatness and no need to suffer by choice. Ironically, intentional suffering is the key to everything we know as "great" in the way master Ray spoke of it.

Seeing all suffering as injustice and to be avoided ... that's bad for music and for the soul of music.



Making money is necessary, but it's not greatness to be rich.
Old 19th July 2005
  #171
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soultrane's Avatar
and, one other thing about hiphop that bothers me...

that is, hiphop limits itself, as it seems to me, in a few important ways;

1) tempo; the first consideration a composer generally makes... how fast or how slow should the song/work be... almost every style of music has a wide variety of tempos... jazz, classical, rock, etc. can be anywhere from 50 to 200 bpm.

hiphop is almost invariably no slower than, say, 78, and no faster, than say, 110, with some 90% of the trax being done somewhere in the mid 80's-mid 90's...

i understand this has to do w. lyrical delivery, but i have heard many mc's, primarily european (dynamite mc w. roni size, for example, or the grime mc's) who rap at tempos from 130-170... this shouldn't be too hard, since the mc keeps his same flow, only the beat underneath is twice as fast (170 is 85 doubled..)

i just think alot of hiphop producers think if they experiment too much w. the tempo, it "won't be hiphop" anymore.

2) subject matter... hiphop is good at expressing energy/cockiness, anger, lust, humor, rage/outrage, etc. w. the very occasional love song...

but hip hop is generally not as effective at communicating melancholoy, sadness, nostalgia, reverence... etc... as a piece like mood indigo or the 2nd movement of beethoven's 7th symphony..

now, i'm sure no ssl must know a hiphop tune that sets the tears to running... but i don't know too many, for sure...

consequently, if you're listening to hiphop primarily, as many kids are today, they do not experience the full range of emotion thru their music...

am i wrong about this?

(ps black on both sides was one of the few hiphop records i heard that really had a lot of different moods/tempos in it...)
Old 19th July 2005
  #172
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
(tho i'd much rather have sex w. kind of blue in the background than fity cent)
"Kind of Blue" is sublime but getting down with some female niceness to "Candy Shop" sure sounds like a lot of fun. Might crack up laughing at some point but that's ok too. Just a little levity here. Can't believe I read most of these posts here. To rewind back to the topic. Wasn't the term Jazz and Jazzin' originally slang for "getting it on" long before art and institutionalization hit Jazz? Rap ain't jazz and jazz ain't rap. They can both be fine on their own. When there's "hip hop at Lincoln Center" and KRS1 is invited to the White House for an inaugural ball you know the party's over. As far as the state of Hip Hop/Rap/R&B well... as the book starts out "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times". I can say I can't stand to turn on Hot97 or BET for more than 2 seconds but some gems do come along even now. I thought Kanye West's performance @ Live8 was exceptional. No crew of bark along cronies or chicks dancing (the blindfolded chick string section miming was gay). In pop culture hip hop is certainly at critical mass with all the attending cheesiness. It's the currency of cool at the moment. I find it amusing and look at it like you look at old Disco $hit at it's zenith. There are some very popular artists today that people will deny ever listening to at some point. Woe to him/her who is currently rocking the latest hip hop fashions when some day their kids find pictures of them in their finest.
Old 19th July 2005
  #173
jordan19 
Guest
soultrane you make another point that i was hesitant to bring up earlier lol. while it's true that one song can affect two people in completely different ways, i have yet to find a hip-hop tune that geniunely MOVES me deeply, or hits the depths of my soul... it's surface music- head bobbing club music that you can party to. Which is cool.

but you can't rap a ballad. you'd be doing just plain spoken word. a rap song will just never be able to create something like Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah"... or R.E.M.'s "Be Mine"... or Ryan Adams "The Shadowlands" or his version of "Wonderwall." And those are just rock songs. There are incredibly moving pieces of music in jazz and classical that are just beautiful to listen to.

To me, hip-hop is a one dimensional music. It's cheap beer. And real music is a fine wine.

No offense to the hip-hoppers here. That's just my opinion.
Old 19th July 2005
  #174
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19
soultrane you make another point that i was hesitant to bring up earlier lol. while it's true that one song can affect two people in completely different ways, i have yet to find a hip-hop tune that geniunely MOVES me deeply, or hits the depths of my soul... it's surface music- head bobbing club music that you can party to. Which is cool.

but you can't rap a ballad. you'd be doing just plain spoken word. a rap song will just never be able to create something like Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah"... or R.E.M.'s "Be Mine"... or Ryan Adams "The Shadowlands" or his version of "Wonderwall." And those are just rock songs. There are incredibly moving pieces of music in jazz and classical that are just beautiful to listen to.

To me, hip-hop is a one dimensional music. It's cheap beer. And real music is a fine wine.

No offense to the hip-hoppers here. That's just my opinion.
Most music someone isn't into usually comes off 1 dimensional. Your opinion is valid.. for you. Either it doesn't speak to you or you haven't come across stuff that does move you. It's out there and does for others. My own for instance would have to be something like "Step into the night" off of Mos Def's Black on Both Sides. Try it. It ain't Brahms but does the trick.

I like wine and beer fine. You may know fine wine but do you know the diff between cheap and fine beer? Maybe you're a wine person.
Old 19th July 2005
  #175
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ttauri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19
while it's true that one song can affect two people in completely different ways, i have yet to find a hip-hop tune that geniunely MOVES me deeply, or hits the depths of my soul... it's surface music- head bobbing club music that you can party to. Which is cool.

but you can't rap a ballad. you'd be doing just plain spoken word. a rap song will just never be able to create something like Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah"... or R.E.M.'s "Be Mine"... or Ryan Adams "The Shadowlands" or his version of "Wonderwall." And those are just rock songs. There are incredibly moving pieces of music in jazz and classical that are just beautiful to listen to.

To me, hip-hop is a one dimensional music. It's cheap beer. And real music is a fine wine.
Different frame of reference. Like: I find TROY by Pete Rock & CL Smooth profoundly moving, but it may not move someone else whose frame of reference is too far removed from what the song speaks on (also knowing who Trouble T-Roy was helps, and how the song honors him).

Some songs speak to your life experiences, others speak to other people's.

Peece,
T. Tauri
Old 19th July 2005
  #176
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by grahluk
Most music someone isn't into usually comes off 1 dimensional.
very true

Quote:
Your opinion is valid.. for you. Either it doesn't speak to you or you haven't come across stuff that does move you. It's out there and does for others. My own for instance would have to be something like "Step into the night" off of Mos Def's Black on Both Sides. Try it. It ain't Brahms but does the trick.

I like wine and beer fine. You may know fine wine but do you know the diff between cheap and fine beer? Maybe you're a wine person.
But be honest, isn't Hip Hop afraid to stretch out? ... to show weakness for example? Or to show an image that's not todays definition of cool. Cool is such a limiting concept on musical greatness in any genre ... so many unwritten rules.

What about a rap on poverty as a blessing of limitations? A life of choosing the simple pleasures over the material ones? Where is that side in any style of pop today? What about a tune on inner worth over outer image? Who's doing that?


Pop is pop, any style has the same credibility problems today .... hip hop critics could easily be speaking of boy bands or soloists in pop, by changing a few of the words around.

When any artist values success over an inner set of values, they will never be seen as great outside of the era they're in.
Old 19th July 2005
  #177
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soultrane's Avatar
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by grahluk
"Kind of Blue" is sublime but getting down with some female niceness to "Candy Shop" sure sounds like a lot of fun. Might crack up laughing at some point but that's ok too. Just a little levity here. Can't believe I read most of these posts here. To rewind back to the topic. Wasn't the term Jazz and Jazzin' originally slang for "getting it on" long before art and institutionalization hit Jazz? Rap ain't jazz and jazz ain't rap. They can both be fine on their own. When there's "hip hop at Lincoln Center" and KRS1 is invited to the White House for an inaugural ball you know the party's over.
someone mentioned that jazz was called jungle music at the outset... but i don't think it was called jungle until duke ellington started playing at the cotton club, which was 1927...

but gershwin's rhapsody and blue and paul whitemans symphonic jazz experiements (making a "lady out of jazz") date from 1924...

so i think its kind of a misreading of history that jazz was great/hot/sexy/fiery, then it became academic, then it lost its fire...

one final thing about jazz/hiphop comparison...

when jazz came on the scene in the teens/early 20's, it was really, really revolutionary sounding... the way the cats made braying noises w. their horns and whatnot, plus the rhythms... way different than anything ever heard..

i really haven't heard anything that revolutionary sounding in the intervening 100 years or so except, ironically, "jungle"... i.e., drum and bass which came on the scene in the mid '90's

i really don't think elvis / the beatles / chuck berry / little richard were as much a departure as what came before as the original jazz was way back when...

and hip hop surely wasn't too revolutionary sounding to people raised on funk... i can remember folks saying "aw, mc hammer ain't doing nothing that james brown didn't already do better..."
Old 19th July 2005
  #178
jordan19 
Guest
to those who responded to my posts, notice the sentence where I said "one song can affect two people in completely different ways."

I realize this.

(and by the way, i like mos def. mentioned it earlier in the thread ) He formed a rock band to compensate for how few black rock artists are out there thumbsup Black Jack Johnson. I really wish there were more black people into rock music. Hell, millions of white people are into rap music.
Old 19th July 2005
  #179
Lives for gear
 
Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
consequently, if you're listening to hiphop primarily, as many kids are today, they do not experience the full range of emotion thru their music...

am i wrong about this?
Good and essential point. The level of demand consumed makes the level of apprehension. Not only in relation of products artistic refiness.

Here a little thread that I started once, related to what happens when you listen to basically the same song throughout a whole generation.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-free-zone-shoot-the-breeze/31589-cockaigne-effect-taste.html

And as mentioned before in another discussion, monotony has been used as torture. People were exposed to repetitive sounds in political arrest. Because monotony on the long run would hazard their thinking abilities.

That is very clear anyway when you look how expansion or loss of brain activities on the other side works. Diversity of signals broadens, monotony narrows intellectual capacities.

I know that people who get satisfaction from repetitive music might only feel like such a relation was meant to offend, but it is not. There is no sense in looking down on anybody or anything thelike. This is a reference to the given material and only that and my hope that it could make think about it.

Because I believe demand in culture to be no random question, but of significance for the worlds community and the optiones to come to its benefits.

Ruphus
Old 19th July 2005
  #180
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey


Having one's ass kicked musically. as a humbling moment, requires a sense of greatness ... and if it hurts, it helps. In a culture with a fear of hurt, you'll have no greatness as a result .
Absolutely 100% correct. If you've never thought about quitting after hearing someone do what you do better than you do it, you're not trying.

Quote:

Today what's great to most people of influence is what sells, and the musicians have become part of the problem. White, black and green.

When there is no truth, there is no greatness and no need to suffer by choice. Ironically, intentional suffering is the key to everything we know as "great" in the way master Ray spoke of it.

Seeing all suffering as injustice and to be avoided ... that's bad for music and for the soul of music.
This is not a problem with musicians per se, but with society. Hip Hop, like any other genre, is to some extent a reflection on the larger society. What's sad is that there is little or no pressure in Hip Hop to oppose the idea of monetary success=artistic success, and a great deal of pressure to conform to this idea. Hip Hop is seen by most as a ticket to monetary success, not as an art form that deserves serious dedication.(*) Commercial Hip Hoppers are pimping "their" art form for a quick buck, and degrading themselves and the art in the process. It's the artistic equivalent of strip-mining.
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