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Old 18th July 2005
  #121
no ssl yet 
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When

If I did stereotype asians The stereotypes were not negative. I did say that they tend to live in the same community, they have a strong sense of family. They hire their own people for there enterprises.

I asked have you ever been to a Chinese resteraunt and seen many workers who were not Chinese?

THIS IS NOT A STEREOTYPE

I"M not saying that most Chinese people work in Chinese resteraunts. I'm saying that they tend to hire their own. THough it may appear a stereotype on the surface, it is NOT.

This is why we have dialogues. Alot of things about black people may sound stereotypcial but if after they are EXPLAINED they are not stereotypes, I'm smart enough to listen and understand the difference.

The ONE stereotype that I am guilty of (THat I'm trying to work on ) is not knowing the difference between groups of asian people alwayss.


I will even go as far as to say EVERY Asian person I have sat in a classroom with was very intelligent. VERY INTELLIGENT. This is an Asian stereotype I guess. But I dont think it's so terrible to be known as intelligent.

Asians had Tax incentives
Jews had Usury Laws

SHOW ME PLEASE the attempt at economic equality for African Americans. And please dont point to Affirmative Action, because as I have commented in another thread it has served to bring more benefits to White Women, which benefits white households.

Why is it that when I argue other ethnic groups control the sellng of their culture to America, and they profit from it that you dont seem to get I'm only arguing for African Americans to do the exact same thing.

This is not a call for a separatist nation. I'm simply saying that if you are a plumber and I am a lawyer, You charge me for plumbing and profit from it, I charge you for legal work and profit from it, that we shall have a better economic system as a whole

My belief is that in order to knock my vision, a prerequsite should be that you have an alternative vision to offer.

I'm not saying that my ideas are the best or that they are the ones that the world has to follow. If you dislike my idea, expand on why you think its wrong and offer an alternative. THIS GETS US SOMEWHERE. and it is constructive.
Old 18th July 2005
  #122
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I'll cease with the **** you statements the moment you stop telling my "YOU Have this problem" Dr. Phil They occur because as you critique me I dont believe you're worthy of my intellect. YOU have already said you dont read the entire post.


I read the posts ... some of the vitriol I skim.

Quote:
Economics is about alot more than money.. It's about equal educational spending, it's about having money to spend for drug treatment, IT's about a child having a better life. It's about funding for higher education. It's about being able to better raise your kids because you can provide for them adequately.

Blacks were given everything but economic equality.
No one has ever been given economic equality ... I am not a Rockefeller, or a Hilton ... is that a race problem? Am I crying foul?

It's our lot in life to have inequity from birth and to work on JOY form there ... JOY is not about money.

You ASSUME that equality is a God given right ... and it's not. It's a good goal for a social service worker or a leftist politician. So run for office.

On the way to any goal, being a GOOD person is key. How many opportunies are missed by black Americans because their attitude is harmonious with the entitlement and conspiracy you preach?

Here's a mind blower ... Just for fun, imagine a planet where we all CHOOSE our parents ... how does that spin your theories? Maybe we choose the whole damn thing for the challenge and reasons only knowable after death and to God?


But back to your points ... the problem with black America is in individual families. Look no further than anyones family for all their issues and MAJOR limitations. If I knew yours better I'd be eating away at your assumptions by exposing your family history and what it did to you. All "theories" are motivated by family pain and family lessons. Society is another word for family. But Family is FIRST

A consumer based culture will wreck havoc on people if they lack fundamental values from a sense of family. This is NOT economic and it's not about unfair opportunity...

My mother is from a dirt poor trailer in Kentucky, and a poor white woman born in 1939 had no head start on any poor black male born after 1965.

Face it ... you're crying "EQUALITY!" and you're an economist in a regulated free market. Humorously ironic, or painfully hypocritical, I'm not sure which. Maybe they let you believe in equality in economic college these days? I'm shocked.



As far as white women making more of Affirmative Action ... maybe they were ALSO due something, as women, for THOUSANDS of years of injustice.

So take a number ... you'll get your turn if you dont blow it with arrogance and anger from conspiracy theories and entitlement energy.

Quote:
We still make comparatively less, we still have more people in prison and in poverty. I believe Economic equality was denied for a reason and this is to a large degree the ultimate cause of many of the problems that we have. If you dissagree then fine. But dont knock my wish for economic equality.
Economic equality was never "denied" in some conspiritorial fashion. It's RESISTED, but that's just power talking.

So your major premise is flawed. No conspiracy, just animals.

You see as RACIAL what is ultimately ANIMAL ... hoarding is pervasive, it's PREDICATBLE. It's BIOLOGICAL, not social.


Quote:
Hell I'm only seeking EQUALITY. why is this a bad thing?
It's not bad, but it's an IDEAL, and by defintion NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

And in the meantime we can feel ENTITLEMENT or ACCEPT life and work for JOY (which is not money). Your view promotes a racially motivated conspiracy theory and a reaction to same. That's dangerous and ignorant. White people as a whole are not smart enough or cooperative enough with each other to plan to keep you down or to execute any plan.

Yet you assume this.

Teenagers AND terrorists EXPECT justice and lash out when it is not available on their timeline ... adults accept the SLOW pace and FEAR based nature of EVERYBODY.

Thus my connection between Teenagers, Terrorists and the Idealism, Conspiracy Theories and Anger you speak from.

Quote:
Black America is comparatively in a worse position as a whole than the rest of America. I offer solutions for those problems.

PLEASE NOTE
I have yet to read what your proposed solution is, you seem to only be good for pointing out what you feel my flaws are DR. Phil. Where are your solutions????
You're seemingly blind to the MANY offerings of solutions ... they are all over these posts. In between the lines.


Quote:
Black america has unique problems
Unique or MORE important?

Our solutions are only as good as our premises... thus I look first to the premise in my critiques. MANY of your assumtions are flawed, so the solutions are not as soluable as they could be with better assumptions.

Everyone has "unique problems", and if you want to put black Americas unique issues ahead of any other minorities unique problems, or ahead of Americas unique problems in the world, or ahead of any INDIVIDUALS unique problems ... I wont go there. In the end, every transaction is between individuals and all problems are important IF we can effect them positively.






Any individual, given sufficient education or intelligence will prosper. And this education begins and ends in the home. The rest is paper education, theories and ideas that are NOT real. Some live it, those who cant, teach.

You see the world as black and non-black. I see it as human beings ... individuals ... dealing with each other and learning prejudice and expectations in family systems BEFORE they enter the social systems ... and after all that, dealing with each other individually with opportunities and through injustices and inequity.


Take a number! Lots of injustice. To work on it - noble. To expect it - naive. To predicate from a conspiracy to keep blacks down - dangerous.

This is the same bull**** the Christian Right uses against Liberals, Karl Rove for example, "They hate us, they're out to destroy our way of life". Come to think of it it sounds like the battle cry of the jewish forum member as well "they want to destroy us."



The sad truth is, everyone is afraid of what is 'different' to them, and when we act on fear for power then EVERYONE loses. Insisting that our IDENTITY lies in our differences as you do is not helping anyone.
Old 18th July 2005
  #123
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Lucey

I see now and think I understand you a bit better, you believe there are no conspiracies and the problems of black America are not unique in your view.

YOU tell me any other group that had to fight to be recognized as part of the constitution because they were seen as a fraction of a man.

Tell me another group that fought for civil rights in this country, couldnt drink from a waterfountain because of skin color, were made to ride the back of the bus, were Given syphilis and denied treatment because of their color,are racially profiled by police because of their color, are not granted equal employment opportunities, because of their color, are not allowed to move into certain neighborhoods because of their color, are charged higher drink prices in bars because of their color. Has less funding spent in their community for HIV treatment/education despite having the highest rate of new cases because of their color.

As a black man in America, I am more likely to have childhood friends that are killed or incarcerated. IS THAT BECAUSE OF MY FAMILY

YOU tell me another group with this in common.

You say individual family units are to blame. I say that individual famlily units have been hurt by the cuts to Public Education that have increased since the beginning of integration. I think the family is responsible for finding its own solution, but IT"S not the family's fault they are in their predicament.

Women have been discriminated against plenty, but if you dont see that the plight of black America is unique, IT"S pointless to talk solutions with you.

YOU BLame the victim for being victimized



ANSWER ONE QUESTION please if none of the others.

DO you think Black America has comparatively worse statistics than the rest of America because we have worse families????

IS THAT your reasoning. It is our fault because we have worse families?

Do you know what I discovered when I found Corporate america that you diss so badly.

$100 thousand dollar a year salaries
Stock options
School loan repayment
company car (which prevents having a personal car note)

THIS was a world that my black ass was never wanted in. YOU know that, and I know it, but you know what it provides?

Do you know what this adds up to? A chance to better provide for my family, education/college funds

A chance to actually better my family unit. A chance to show my family what it means to be successful after sacrificing for education.

FOR ME Corporate America aint so bad when viewed as an opportunity. YET you seem to find me being/having been there ironic.

Please tell me why?


I guess you have the answer. All we as Blacks in America have to do is be "GOOD PEOPLE".


Who would have known OUR problems occur because we miss the boat at being "good People"

YOU are blind to my reality.
Old 18th July 2005
  #124
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lucey's Avatar
Women's sufferage.

And you were not born a fraction of a man. You're a fukking American male, fully righted ... and THEN you're black.




As I've said ... victims exist, victimization is real between individuals. Victim Consciousness is a failure of spirit that keeps individuals down. You preach this and I'm sorry but there's no more to say.




As I have said .. Corporate America is not interested in equality and change, they want exploitation and greed ... do you think you can walk in a room and corporate people dont smell your spirit of equality and change? You're a threat!

Me too, and I'm white. Be proud of yourself and screw the entitlements that come at the expense of society that Corporate America brings. America is not about systems and Corporations, its about individuals and Enterpreneurs. The systems are the problem.

You're going from slavery to slavery with that logic. You think Corporate America is freedom? Sorry man but that's stupid.


My family has never made a penny working in Corporate America and we do just fine. Not rich and not poor, just fine.





I've given you the best gift I can ... CHS and TRLG ... look them up and tell me where you can double your money every 18 months becoming part of the power game that is going to bring down the world.

Paying for college is stupid for most people, unless you want to learn a trade, be a lawyer or doctor or teacher, etc. Generally it's for people with no real passion for life who want the security of the paperwork. You want money? The richest enterpreneurs ... dropouts.

Keep on wearing that suffering on your sleeve in the halls of some University if you insist, see how far that gets you and your family.
Old 18th July 2005
  #125
Lives for gear
>Why is it that AIDS funding does not go to the communities where there is the highest rise in the AIDS rate???

most likely because it is a "mercy". there is danger and there is interest, but for every part of society, which at first makes the medicine even possible. if the upper class were immune I doubt that much would happen in HIV prevention and R&D. without governmental regulation and an assessment process everyone will say it's not their own children, not "their people", so why bother. and those who are concerned, naturally have very little income.
this works similar to the destruction of the public schools. same in europe. as soon as "strangers" take use of the school system, and create demand for more complexity and funding, in the center of society there is a desire to turn it down.

it is seen as freedom, to decide whom to support, and how to spend money. it is seen as freedom, to not be hindered by a notion of "the common good".


>Economics is about alot more than money.. It's about equal educational spending,
>it's about having money to spend for drug treatment, IT's about a child having a
>better life. It's about funding for higher education. It's about being able to better
>raise your kids because you can provide for them adequately.

but the capitalist economic system has virtually no knowledge about that. there is no genetic code in the corporate world for it. this is extremely tricky: from IT you know about "interface" technology. an interface means to separate tasks, so they can be taken care of with less complexity. there is a socioeconomic interface that leaves everything you describe to the families and cultural lobbies (including religions). this makes the whole thing non-solidaric, it becomes the same competitive structure that economy is itself. just that the interface makes sure no one can change it within the corporate structures, and so it can work like the style you know it: the elites serve themselves, and leave others outside.
affirmative action is just another interface to keep structural influence by the struggle of the minorities outside of the heart of the socioeconomic system. they can compete for the budget that is spent for "grace", and for the percentages, that are granted (employment, government, etc..). it is an animal farm again.



>I"M not saying that most Chinese people work in Chinese resteraunts. I'm saying
>that they tend to hire their own. THough it may appear a stereotype on the surface, it is NOT.

this is how they force solidarity into function. but it is quite harsh, the internal rules are serious. to stay part of this system means a complex life and very hard work, and freedom goes much below community values. at least their problems are much different from the problems of black minorities, it is remarkable that we see a choice between freedom and economic safety.

large-family structures are a good part of their solutions. they know how to teach their children, and make them see how they can behave like the typical MTV hip-hoppers and soon have HIV, become alcohol and drug addicts, and eventually go to jail with no cent in their pockets and no home to stay.



>SHOW ME PLEASE the attempt at economic equality for African Americans.

well, the others had functional lobbies and accomplished acceptance.
the attempt was always from the _inside_ of an ethnic or social group.
everything else is a political hunt for votes.
the system is based on hypocrisy, we should have understood since long.

not to forget the influence by the few hundred families, that own the most part of the wealth in the world. they have a strong culture that made them what they are, and they are planning over the scope of centuries. (not that it works everytime but there is a long-time vision)

why not have a long-time vision in EVERY family?



>the reason kids don't learn to play piano is NOT because they can't afford a keyboard,
>it's because they don't want to sit and practice, and because the family structure
>isn't there for the parents to MAKE them practice...

yes, but also you must see the complex and long development in a music profession. if everyone is in the streets, playing some funny tunes, and even when they become better than 50 and puffy, who will bake the bread? asians and arabs bake their own.
most children have talent enough to learn the basics, and how to play a beatles tune on the keyboard. that would help them to judge, how much crap is thrown onto them by the industry. but then, to make money out of music, they need to study and have highest-qualified teachers, who are very expensive, because of capitalism of course, and the value they create. in the soviet union it was almost granted that gifted artists got their training, but they had to prove their talents, dedication and forthcomings. in the west it is up to the stipendium, or the wealth of the family, both a matter of social heritage and "connection", it is not granted on talent and diligence, there is of course no abundance of stipendium money. generally there is little funding for a broad artistic education. it is the mercy of elites, that grant some children top education to become the next rubinstein, horovitz etc.
the pop stars are there because of some lottery. rappers are chosen by the industry not for musical perfection but for "coolness" and a message that serves the industry and its conservative owners. all these xtinas and britneys had their chance from some lucky casting event and mickey mouse clubs, which is not bad, but not a systematic facility to musical education of the populace. of course they got enough education to do their jobs as far as it is required.
but I think many producers have invested quite some money into their knowledge and this was a hard struggle.
anyone tell?

no wonder that many famous artists came from the church musicianship. music is required there, a certain level of quality is required, and with musical education also comes spiritual education, which is the agenda of churches (besides spending).
naturally, a good gospel singer is convincing also in a religious way.


>and ps... when a kid w. a bit of talent can sit at a keyboard and pick out the string lines for 50 cent, ja rule, and lil john in an afternoon, he's gotta wonder what's the point in keyboard lessons anyway?

that's the lottery I was writing about. these so called stars had much luck, connection, aggression, simple message, and chuzpe (how call it in african language? heh ), and that was more important than music.

but tell them, they won't have the same luck that ja rule had, they are not the skilled, ruthless drug dealers that some rappers had been before their careers, they are less than talented mafiosi to climb up the posse networks, they are not the martial arts bombs that can prove credibility in the street.
they have to train and rehearse music, and they will never be on TV. now how bad is this? do they want to be cool, or do they want to be musicians?

black society must destroy its own "ooolness" thingy, to get along with culture..
quite so difficult, when whites and everyone pay billions just for plain coolness...



>Why is it that when I argue other ethnic groups control the selling of their culture to America,

it is true and a good agenda to get control of the "culture" and its economic value.
just that there is none, when it is all about sports and music. this is extra money just for coolness.
the value of coolness is questionable, starting from the fact that it is most time fake.
chinese food is an economic value. martial arts is an economc value, it is required for protection and will be funded.
family culture is an economic value, and makes life less expensive.

music has lost its economic value, as we see from MTV. it is all about coolness and connection.
only the grassroots action like rappers selling their CDs in the streets, have a bit of value, but this is highly restricted to ethnic groups and social borders.
it is not the same when a rapper can't sell outside of his westcoast/eastcoast realm, and JZ can sell around the world. a whole different system and set of values behind these two methods. music for the masses gets only economic value by being chosen from outside, and being invested for promo.

church music OTOH is chosen from the inside, and therefore sustainable.


--

to me, it comes down to a problem of common good and solidarity.
as we see, subcultures CAN and DO have their own separatist systems of common good.


1. average white families have one problem that destroys them: bad schools, infotainment, abstract work in a bad, unregulated competition, and the whole consumerism and individualism that is the ideal of corporate economy. that's basically the current socio-economic system.

2. minorities, particularly blacks have another problem, additionally: their history of destroyed family values, that no_ssl has explained. the men had to work apart from their families. but people had never enough control of their lives to create an oriental, matriarchal large-family system, where the men had the say only in the streets. they could not network enough to create this culture, and the old cultures were lost with their language and freedom.


this can be dealt with as a factor of time. the destruction of the family has gone further in the black groups, that is the facit. (of course there are good examples where they have overcome it, in some cities etc. where they are in sync with white middle-class and have still fact.1. as their problem)
but generally it is systemic and so it is about EVERYONE.

history shows, that this kind of cultural problem cannot be healed within pure capitalism. there have been ways of socialism, to force solidarity, and ways of religion. it is a whole, long round trip through everything, that mankind has created in terms of culture and society.

society is a jungle, destroy it, and it will take centuries to grow another rich, functional system of biodiversity. likely we will see some BORG system evolve, when the corporate economy can't be forced to develop an intrinsic genetic code about human solidarity and common good (includes environment),
Old 18th July 2005
  #126
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????

Paying for college is stupid for most people, unless you want to learn a trade, be a lawyer or doctor or teacher, etc. Generally it's for people with no real passion for life who want the security of the paperwork. You want money? The richest enterpreneurs ... dropouts.


College is for people with no real passion for life?

Now I dont feel so bad about you and your victim conciousness addiction. You have unfair preconceived notions about everything


Bill Gates World's richest man, BUsiness school droupout. COLLEGE GRADUATE

College was one of my best investments


NEO, I agree with most of your post.


LUcey I dont see things in America as being wrong because of some"great white conspiracy" I dont deny that there have been conspiracies against black people/organizations but I have a totally different vantage point from you when it comes to solutions.

CONSIDER if you will
African America as a de facto third world nation

It suffers a net outflow of monetary and human resources, it is unable to retain currency reserves for a reasonable time within its borders, its economic infrastructure is dominated by alien business establishments which feed off/siphon its wealth.

It sufferss from infrastructural problems (poor highways,streets, housing, protection etc..)which limits its attractiveness to outside investors

It suffers a trade deficit with others so it buys more than it sells and it retains less of what it earns from other communities than what other communities retain from it

IF you study (LOL but college is a waste) the economic history of nations with the above listed problems, you will see that they suffer from social and economic dysfunction which leads to breakdowns in law and order, increases in criminality, family disruptions, drug addiction, disease and death, along with a host of other poiticoeconomic and sociopsychological problems.

Also these nations are exploited and often colonized by stronger nations

As America keeps a balance of trade and realizes its national debt, deficit and trade imbalances with other nations so they cant threaten the US's economic well being and the lower the standard of living of its citizens I'm suggesting the same for African America.

If you look at the US. and Japan when America has a problem with its balance of trade, it engages a review and revision of its foreign policies, I"M simply suggesting African America should do the same.

The establishment of alien business in the African American community has led to relatively little employment of African Americans in those companies. Because these outsider investors do not live in this community, the funds of the black community are repatriated. They leave the community without circulating within the community

IN the case of the US and Japan, the US can use its foreign policy as a tool to enforce economic parity and equalibrium withoutside parties. African America has no such tool, so I suggest saving, pooling resources and improving its own situation.

YET YOU DEEM this a negative somehow.


UNtil now I have never addressed slavery in this country, but because it was essential to the building of this nation, (and you have referenced it several times) I'll address it here
Man America was built on the backs of blacks with free labor. Even if we consider White domination in this country to no longer exist, you cannot deny thatthe domination of black people is what made most of the wealthy (not the rich) in this nation wealthy. These economic injustices and inequalities have continued unabated.

When there is an unjustice, justice requires not only the ceasing and desisting of injustice but also the punishment or reparation for injuries and damages inflicted for prior wrongdoing. (IN essence the redistributions of gains earned through the injustice). IF restitution is not made and there is no compensation for prior injustices, those injustices are in a sense rewarded. The benefits of those rewards continue to draw interest to be reinvested and passed to children who inherit the advantages and continue exploit the children of the victims of the injustices and their ancestors. Even though they may not be concious of the exploitation or they may not intend it, the children of those who exploited black Americans will have an unfair advantage.

Because there will never be any form of economic redistribution or reparation, it is up to African Americans to take control of their own resources to empowerer their own self sufficiency by gaining ownership of the resources of their community.

IF you cannot see the african American community as unique in this respect in America then please explain your alternative view.

Do me a favor Tell me how you view me as American first and black second. Does the view of me being American not make me separatist from the rest of the world's people????

As NEO has stated what I'm suggesting will in a sense result in a loss of freedom, because it will call for a drastic change in African America's re investment in itself. BUT this is our unfair burden. I would choose it in a heartbeat over teen pregnancy, AIDS, unemployment etc.....
Old 18th July 2005
  #127
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LMAO..............man ya'll are funny as hell.

Quote:
The Civil War http://www.swcivilwar.com/cw_causes.html

While some in the North hated slavery because they felt that it was wrong, most people held no opinion of it at all, and some even condoned it because abolishing it would be bad for business. Without slaves there would be no cotton. Without cotton the textile industry would suffer. To many it was just that simple.

Even in the North only four states permitted free blacks to vote, and in no state could they serve on a jury. Many people wondered what could possibly be done with the huge number of blacks if they were, in fact, freed.

dfegad dfegad dfegad
Old 18th July 2005
  #128
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entropy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
We need to understand the critics fairly, to respond to them. Hip Hop is not the LCD of music "around this site" ...

Hip Hop's elements ARE the basic blocks of pop music:

Dance Beat

and

Ideas/Rhyme/Ego
eerr, that may be the elements of rap, not hip hop. Please don't confuse the 2.

For those of you needing a lesson, the 4 elements of hip hop are: rapping, djing, breaking, writing.

And in the comparisons made with jazz, everyone has spoken of rapping but how about the skill of DJing. The way cats like QBert, MMM, Kid Koala can manipulate time and audio to create new compositions on the fly is (IMO) as skillful as anything Miles/Dizzy et al did. YMMV but having watched guys like this at close hand, I have nothing but respect for their commitment.

Anyway, who gives a ****. I'm off to see The Roots next week, gonna b the BOMB!


As a side note, Jules, that may well have been my old partner your bud from Lost Poets got his dough from. And I would say his publishing company prolly took a large chunk before he saw anything 'cause I know a figure that has more digits.
Old 18th July 2005
  #129
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lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
College was one of my best investments
Glad that's working out

Quote:
Do me a favor Tell me how you view me as American first and black second. Does the view of me being American not make me separatist from the rest of the world's people????
Not unless you're an isolationsist, which America used to be much more into. Today there's no way to NOT be segregated ... that's the point.

Don't you think that a Radical Leftist would have figured out a way to live, eat and work in America and NOT be an American first ... if it was possible?



Separatism is not a new idea ... it's just impossible


and counterproductive to positive change.

out man





(In spite of your jokes/insults I truly like mastering hip hop ... got some to do now ... if you can, send me that tune once it's ready and I'll do it right. Thanks again for the CD sampler.)
Old 18th July 2005
  #130
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

P.S. http://www.rapcoalition.org


HHHHHHHHHHip Hop ??? say whatttt check yoooooooo self "cause king Kong AIN't got nothing on me"

Quote:
Last week's sales, led by 245,000 copies sold of George Strait's "Somewhere Down in Texas" (MCA Nashville), were down 2.7% from the same week last year.

Strait bumped Coldplay's "X&Y" (Capitol), which fell to No. 3 after three weeks in the pole position. "X&Y" sold 140,000.

Rap act Ying Yang Twins saw their TVT disc "United State of Atlanta" sell 201,000 copies in its debut sesh. D-Roc and Kaine had never had a sales week top 75,000 previously.

"I'm a Hustla," by Cassidy, the rapper who recently turned himself in to Philadelphia police in connection with a shooting, opened at No. 5 with his soph Full Surface/J Records release selling 92,000.

Five- and six-year-old recordings from soul singer Anthony Hamilton, released by Rhino/Atlantic under the title "Soulife," opened at No. 12, selling 53,000 copies. Columbia's soul thrush Vivian Green saw her second disc, "Vivian," sell 46,000 copies and open at No. 18.

In other debuts, Island rock band CKY's "Answer Can Be Found" sold 28,000 copies to open at No. 35; Razor & Tie's collection of 30 slow jams, "Slow Motion," sold 26,000 (No. 37); the Jive debut from R&B singer Raheem DeVaughn, "Love Experience," sold 22,000 (No. 46); and former D-12 rapper Bizarre sold 21,000 copies of his Sanctuary disc "Hannicap Circus" (No. 48).

Traditionally, the week after the Fourth of July is a no man's land in music retail. Last year's top debut, for example, was Angie Stone's "Stone Love" at 53,000 units sold. This year, however, it appears R. Kelly's "TP.3 Reloaded" (Jive), released Tuesday, is looking at sales of more than a half-million.
Old 18th July 2005
  #131
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Lucey

Please note the rather lengthy extension to my post above
Old 18th July 2005
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Please note the rather lengthy extension to my post above
I agree on some things ... like I said, I've argued the cause many times with ignorant whites I know .. but you go too far

There is no "African America"




And there's no way to get people to have the discipline to work together without a messiah. If you're then next MLK, get at it, I'm all for it.



sorry, gotta go ...
Old 18th July 2005
  #133
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Musicianship

I'm surprised no one mentioned the cutting of funds for Arts education in public schools. If you wanna point to why there is a lack of musicianship, Not only in rap but in all music, I'd say look there for starters. MUSIC programs are always among the first to become underfunded when funds are short.
Old 18th July 2005
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
I'm surprised no one mentioned the cutting of funds for Arts education in public schools. If you wanna point to why there is a lack of musicianship, Not only in rap but in all music, I'd say look there for starters. MUSIC programs are always among the first to become underfunded when funds are short.
how can public schools teach music when they can't even teach reading?

washington dc spends over $12k per student per year... by far highest in the nation... and 62% of dc's population falls into the lowest 2 categories of reading proficiency.

the problem is deeper than that.... it's a cultural problem... i.e., there's no culture... if parents got upset that their kids couldn't read, their kids would be able to read... music in our country has devolved to the point that its just another hustle... another way to get over...

and, btw, at least on my instrument, keyboard, there has never historically been a great keyboardist who got his instruction from a public school keyboard program... and that goes back 150 years...
Old 18th July 2005
  #135
Lives for gear
yeah I hear parents rather sue teachers for a bad degree and discrimination, than kick some serious ass with their children about studying..
Old 18th July 2005
  #136
jordan19 
Guest
I think funding for the arts is very important, but even I don't think it should come before the standard basic subjects like English- and I'm a musician so that's saying something.

I used to participate in a lot of concerts and fundraisers for getting music back into schools, but I stopped doing it because honestly I just can't 100% support what some of those people are asking for. The root problems need to be fixed before you start trying to deal with accessories, like music classes. There are much bigger problems in schools than lack of music education.

Now to disagree with one thing soultrane said, yes there are no kids who ever became professional musicians in classical or jazz SOLELY from public school music classes. BUT, I know plenty of pro musicians (a couple even in major US orchestras) that wouldn't be musicians had their public schools not introduced them to music at a young age. After they got interested, they pursued real teachers and serious studying, but the public school music system was the basis for their interest to begin with.
Old 18th July 2005
  #137
Lives for gear
 
Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19
I agree, no true musician would call Wynton an idiot. The guy is brilliant, and an artist of the highest caliber. And Wynton and the guys at the jazz department at Juilliard were pretty gracious to me so I can't really say I've seen the "jerk" personality so many people talk about.

With that said, I don't share his purist views.


Would you agree then that Wynton's purist views are idiotic?
Old 18th July 2005
  #138
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

my one friend who played with him said he felt like he was playing with his
accountant.....
Old 18th July 2005
  #139
jordan19 
Guest
Well who cares what I think of his views, because everyone has their own opinions about music and opinions about other people's opinions. Who's right and who's wrong? Depends on who you're talking to.

Wynton is far more educated and experienced in every area of jazz than most of us here. That doesn't invalidate criticism of him or his views, but it does put them in perspective. The man is not an idiot, and his views are his views. They're not idiotic views in his mind. He's really just following a lot of the same lines of thinking that classical purists perpetuate.
Old 18th July 2005
  #140
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom
my one friend who played with him said he felt like he was playing with his
accountant.....
really, who's his accountant? oscar brashear?
Old 18th July 2005
  #141
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
btw, since we're talking about the importance of music education, could someone please name a hi profile musician who's done more for music education in the last 25 years than wynton marsalis?

and, a funny story wynton tells; he got a chance to record on some of the real old recording gear at such and such museum... i believe it was the same direct to lacquer gear that king oliver or someone like that was recorded on... he brought his group in and they gave him the lacquer...

he was playing the lacquer for a friend, and of course, he didn't tell him what it was; his friend said to him, "yeah man, you're great and everything, but u just don't swing like those old cats do..."
Old 18th July 2005
  #142
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
...If you wanna point to why there is a lack of musicianship, Not only in rap but in all music, I'd say look there for starters. MUSIC programs are always among the first to become underfunded when funds are short.
This is true however a much bigger cause has been the loss of decent paying gigs for young musicians. Hip Hop offers at least a bit of a career path that is supported by fans while the rest of music is scrambling around seeking corporate patronage and sponsorship. Poor kids can't afford a music performing career today outside of hip hop.
Old 18th July 2005
  #143
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
This is true however a much bigger cause has been the loss of decent paying gigs for young musicians. Hip Hop offers at least a bit of a career path that is supported by fans while the rest of music is scrambling around seeking corporate patronage and sponsorship. Poor kids can't afford a music performing career today outside of hip hop.
What are we talking for a 3 person act ... $50/night/person or more?

Who in any genre gets paid for local gigs (original music)?
Old 18th July 2005
  #144
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucey
What are we talking for a 3 person act ... $50/night/person or more?

Who in any genre gets paid for local gigs (original music)?

hey well, the lightbulb went off in my head when my 12 piece band was taking the stage after another 12 piece band in the cramped confines of la's hottest live venue... they were lugging their rhodes off, and i was lugging my rhodes on...

we got paid 75% of the door... after all the promo etc... i think i only lost $500.. the band was smoking and the place sold alot of drinks tho... they keep asking us back... they can't figure out why i don't take the gig, since its the hottest club in la

the ONLY way to make money is to be a dj....


(dam record engineers.... u killed it 4 us...)
Old 18th July 2005
  #145
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordan19

Now to disagree with one thing soultrane said, yes there are no kids who ever became professional musicians in classical or jazz SOLELY from public school music classes. BUT, I know plenty of pro musicians (a couple even in major US orchestras) that wouldn't be musicians had their public schools not introduced them to music at a young age. After they got interested, they pursued real teachers and serious studying, but the public school music system was the basis for their interest to begin with.
jordan19; agreed...

doesn't nj have pretty good music in schools, tho, in some districts at least? i met a cat who taught junior high band in nj, and he was making $80k a year, which is $20k more than a principal makes out here in phx... and $35k more than a professor at a.s.u.

he told me they had so much money in the nj teacher's pension fund that they gave everyone a retroactive benefits increase...

between his school gigs and his casual band, he was making $150k a year.... (and this was back in 2001)....
Old 18th July 2005
  #146
Lives for gear
 
soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
This is true however a much bigger cause has been the loss of decent paying gigs for young musicians. Hip Hop offers at least a bit of a career path that is supported by fans while the rest of music is scrambling around seeking corporate patronage and sponsorship. Poor kids can't afford a music performing career today outside of hip hop.
i spoke w. a lady from an inner city school district here in phx... she was one of the districts 3 "music specialists..."

she saw something like 4000 kids a week...

i said to her, "wow, it's a shame they're cutting the music programs like this..."

she said, well, "if u got a look at the music curriculum we are made to use, you'd see why the parents don't care when they cut it..."

hot cross buns on recorder doesn't get it anymore... especially when, for a few thousand bucks they could have a top flite music lab

there's a giant gap between "commercial music" and "legit music" as evidenced by this thread... teachers and kids aren't even speaking the same language, generally...

maybe upcoming elementary teachers should be made to take classes in reason and fl studio in college...
Old 18th July 2005
  #147
jordan19 
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
jordan19; agreed...

doesn't nj have pretty good music in schools, tho, in some districts at least? i met a cat who taught junior high band in nj, and he was making $80k a year, which is $20k more than a principal makes out here in phx... and $35k more than a professor at a.s.u.

he told me they had so much money in the nj teacher's pension fund that they gave everyone a retroactive benefits increase...

between his school gigs and his casual band, he was making $150k a year.... (and this was back in 2001)....
actually yeah you're right; NJ does have some pretty good music programs. i happened to go to an inner city high school that didn't have one at all... which didn't make much of a difference to me, since i was already in music school in NY at the time i was attending the high school in jersey. (we were just dirt poor at the time lol, so we lived pretty deep in the inner city.)

$150k a year is a luxury for a musician. But you gotta be versatile, which it sounds like he is. That's why music education is important, because it opens doors. But I still agree with ya that I don't stack it as a top priority when there are other major flaws in the public school system.
Old 18th July 2005
  #148
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Aside: Wynton

I've met Wynton in his office ... my friend is his good friend and collaborator. I've also heard a few (not all) of his recent records.

My sense is that he's a "top" level jazz musician, but lacks the emotional letting go in his playing to make that connection that "great" musicians make with my heart at least. My sense is that this last bit required for greatness is only noticed by musicians, and only some of us ... probably less than half, or around half.

And as a person? A+. Tremendous educator and humble guy who loves music and sees a need to make jazz standardized in a meaningful way as part of American History.

Do I agree that this needs to be done? No. Yet do I prefer ANY institutional musics? No. I'm anti-establishment on almost everything, but I dont knock him for being his way.

Some people are drawn to institutions, some are repulsed. The world needs all types of good souls in leadership positions.

He'll probably never make 'Kind of Blue' or 'Sketches of Spain' ... but he'll also never do any of the crazy **** that a Miles had to do to be Miles.
Old 18th July 2005
  #149
no ssl yet 
Guest
Guys

I'm definately NOT saying that funding for music should come before learning to read, but it is unfair to simply say we have a cultural problem where parents would rather sue teachers then get upset about children learning to read.

Across the nation when public schools were integrated, there was decreased funding for public education.Ïast FWd, and What we have is undereducated parents trying to educate their children. Technically when parents fail to teach childeren it is not their failure alone, it is the failure of the education system to teach them. And thus the education system's ultimate failure (I have thought about this alot, as at times I've contemplated teaching at the Grad school level and leaving the music biz, because I may not be doing enough of my part in this fight for education)

Man dont even talk about what crack cocaine did in the midst of all this going on. We are in a very dismal place now as a nation. What crack did is help make young males become the bread winners in their households. It gave them a sense of authority, that they never deserved. Now we hav echildren that feel they are fit to make adult decisions. They dont realize adult decisions have adult reprocussions (Babies making babies etc....) until it's too late, then they are forced to be adults with childhood mentalities.

However we have to realize that it is society's problem. Because when we fail little Jonnie, he may grow up to kill one of our children in a robbery. It is not enough to stand by and allow him to go uneducated though he may not desire education. (HE doesnt know better at this point in his life).

Someone needs to let children know its ok to be children. When I was younger, I would practice scales for hours, work on my jumpshot for hours, read books for hours, etc....

I had interests. Children today seem to have none on the surface, but if you take time out to spend with children, you will learn that they are not beyond repair.

Each one, teach one
Old 18th July 2005
  #150
no ssl yet 
Guest
Money for gigs

I can get $1200 to do a club date of original music (rap). Mainly because I put out a record 13 years ago that people here in NO still like. (I got lucky), but I wont be able to play that same spot for some time afterward. Of course if I put out a record and generate some heat I could at least triple the $1200 per show

My band (I play bass in a band that does RnB, Funk, and 70s covers, Motown, Hall & Oats, Sly and the family etc..) can get $300 for a gig.

A musician can easily make $150K in a year he has to work his ass off, but so do most people who get $150K a year. Guys music is a part of our lives from ring tones, to elevator music, to soundracks, to music education. Somewhere in the relm of music and its uses is an opportunity for any talented musician to make a living if he applies himself.

when I spoke of directly selling CDs to folk, someone chimed in that it would be alot of work. But is it really work if you get to support yourself and be self employed by your talents??

IF there is no door knock out a wall. Where there is a will, there is a way

Grassroots is where the best things start from. HELL even Wallmart was once a grassroots organization flying below the radar of KMART/Sears etc...

So was Southwest Airlines, the business plan was written on a cocktail knapkin.

JUST DO IT (like Nike which also started small)
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